JSAR Rator issues any help would be great.

[Motorhead]

1.5mm x 10 or an 11 works as well

[triggertreat]

Keith,


Here are the measurements I got manually. The o ring that goes under the seat measures CS of 1.45 mm or .0570 inch.
                                                                                                                                   OD of 12.90 MM or .508 Inch.


Please keep in mind that I am old, slightly senile and dyslexic so it may be off a tiny bit.   


Or Not. 


Mike/Knife

Thanks for taking the time Michael and Scott.  I should be able to find replacements with that.

[KnifeMaker]

You are very welcome Keith, and thank you much Scott! 90 D OK? The replacements seem very soft. I'm thinking the harder D would work well for those of us running higher pressures. No?


Mike

[Motorhead]

You are very welcome Keith, and thank you much Scott! 90 D OK? The replacements seem very soft. I'm thinking the harder D would work well for those of us running higher pressures. No?


Mike

Hate getting back into this being I no longer have any affiliation with JSAR .... If your working with the NEWER seat style that uses a Tapered poppet sealing surface ? the seat in cross section is an L shape.  If using 90 duro the seat is going to have a harder time getting into the I.D. of o-ring due to being much harder.  A slight bevel on the edge that goes into o-rings I.D. may help here ?

[PikeP]

I wonder if one could remove that o-ring and the peak or delrin seat (I've heard some have peek, but knifes had delrin, so IDK)...and just remake the poppet into peek, would that even be an option without requiring re-machining beyond maybe just flattening it down some? If the o-ring in question sits below seat and is compressed via force against seat and poppet, then this o-ring needs to go IMO. (it requires more hammer strike to get the lift needed to compensate for when poppet lifts and o-ring decompresses.)...how much that is depends on how much squeeze that o-ring is seeing...

[Motorhead]

I wonder if one could remove that o-ring and the peak or delrin seat (I've heard some have peek, but knifes had delrin, so IDK)...and just remake the poppet into peek, would that even be an option without requiring re-machining beyond maybe just flattening it down some? If the o-ring in question sits below seat and is compressed via force against seat and poppet, then this o-ring needs to go IMO. (it requires more hammer strike to get the lift needed to compensate for when poppet lifts and o-ring decompresses.)...how much that is depends on how much squeeze that o-ring is seeing...

Sadly NO .... the balance chamber end of poppet contains an O-ring Groove and the vent hole from stem passes threw the root of the o-ring groove.  The pressure within the valve is trying to rip the end off the poppet off as it is ... peek is strong JUST NOT THAT STRONG and it won't hold up !

I've tried and it failed 

 Pic shows a JSAR style poppet end made of aluminum, next to one made of PEEK w/o a vent hole.  It too was failure prone and why i redesigned the valve to be inverted where the portion within chamber no longer needs the vent hole threw the o-ring root and make it from aluminum.

[PikeP]

Well shucks...Was the version two with the poppet bored out for balance chamber using a different valve body as I recall that poppet being full delrin.

A full poppet/thimble redesign, smaller balance ( .22"~ chamber giving a bit more force on valve for easier sealing), with larger ID o-ring , to allow more space for vent to pass through, along with putting the o-ring (ideally xring) in a more promising location like .2"~ away from the balanced end, as well as having an extrusion of only .002-.003" should keep the o-ring from blowing out or failing...but that is a lot of redesign

[Motorhead]

Gen 1 SS valves had a TWO o-ring poppet made of Acetal.  Gen 2 SS valves use a Brass poppet with 1 o-ring.
Thimbles were originally Brass, then Steel. original thimbles threaded on, latter used snap rings.

[PikeP]

Gen 1 SS valves had a TWO o-ring poppet made of Acetal.  Gen 2 SS valves use a Brass poppet with 1 o-ring.
Thimbles were originally Brass, then Steel. original thimbles threaded on, latter used snap rings.

Yea I understand those changes, but still think a slightly smaller balance on the valve would work better (stiction would even be less of an issue with less balance due to increased force to operate valve and the stiction being a smaller % of that) and things should seal better overall from a QC standpoint. The alternative is your version 2 with a heavier spring (that version allows for a lot more spring than the original version which has its spring inside the balance chamber as opposed to outside, and spring rating + preload is very adjustable and a great way to alter how a valve is responding, which is more possible in the externally sprung BV)

Your own personal version 2 with the poppet bored out and having the balance chamber built into it, that used a separate valve body than the ss variety?

[KnifeMaker]

I'am still testing the ss valve which is currently converted to a typical valve. It is very predictable, and NO Leaks!


I will admit though, it is hard to cock!


It has the spring on the outside of the poppet riding on the balance chamber part of the poppet. I will test this setup shortly by using it with the balance chamber as well. I should allow me to  add enough tension to the poppet to stop the leaks!


Knife

[Motorhead]

Gen 1 SS valves had a TWO o-ring poppet made of Acetal.  Gen 2 SS valves use a Brass poppet with 1 o-ring.
Thimbles were originally Brass, then Steel. original thimbles threaded on, latter used snap rings.

Yea I understand those changes, but still think a slightly smaller balance on the valve would work better (stiction would even be less of an issue with less balance due to increased force to operate valve and the stiction being a smaller % of that) and things should seal better overall from a QC standpoint. The alternative is your version 2 with a heavier spring (that version allows for a lot more spring than the original version which has its spring inside the balance chamber as opposed to outside, and spring rating + preload is very adjustable and a great way to alter how a valve is responding, which is more possible in the externally sprung BV)

Your own personal version 2 with the poppet bored out and having the balance chamber built into it, that used a separate valve body than the ss variety?

Nope ... using the same BODY, just different guts from poppet to intake grate / thimble.
In the case of the "Inverted" where I'm able to use a Delrin, Peek or Acetal poppet head, The OEM seat has been removed and I'm sealing the poppet directly against the valve body ( Flat on flat .. Well a slight concave angle on poppet sealing surface )
And in case you missed it ?  The Thimble stem that attaches to the intake grate is using an X / Quad ring.

[PikeP]

Gen 1 SS valves had a TWO o-ring poppet made of Acetal.  Gen 2 SS valves use a Brass poppet with 1 o-ring.
Thimbles were originally Brass, then Steel. original thimbles threaded on, latter used snap rings.

Yea I understand those changes, but still think a slightly smaller balance on the valve would work better (stiction would even be less of an issue with less balance due to increased force to operate valve and the stiction being a smaller % of that) and things should seal better overall from a QC standpoint. The alternative is your version 2 with a heavier spring (that version allows for a lot more spring than the original version which has its spring inside the balance chamber as opposed to outside, and spring rating + preload is very adjustable and a great way to alter how a valve is responding, which is more possible in the externally sprung BV)

Your own personal version 2 with the poppet bored out and having the balance chamber built into it, that used a separate valve body than the ss variety?

Nope ... using the same BODY, just different guts from poppet to intake grate / thimble.
In the case of the "Inverted" where I'm able to use a Delrin, Peek or Acetal poppet head, The OEM seat has been removed and I'm sealing the poppet directly against the valve body ( Flat on flat .. Well a slight concave angle on poppet sealing surface )
And in case you missed it ?  The Thimble stem that attaches to the intake grate is using an X / Quad ring.

Welp, there is your answer folks. SS valve body can be converted easily with new guts and see minor improvements in overall sealing and possibly even lower stiction...just requires some fabrication skills. I much prefer this version personally.

[KnifeMaker]

Scott, I remember a while back a member was making (for personal use) a concave poppet rather than the convex such as we see in the Raptor poppet. I wanted to try it but kinda, sorta, chickened out. LOL!  


The member was RKR.


Good Stuff Scott!




Mike

[triggertreat]

Gen 1 SS valves had a TWO o-ring poppet made of Acetal.  Gen 2 SS valves use a Brass poppet with 1 o-ring.
Thimbles were originally Brass, then Steel. original thimbles threaded on, latter used snap rings.

Yea I understand those changes, but still think a slightly smaller balance on the valve would work better (stiction would even be less of an issue with less balance due to increased force to operate valve and the stiction being a smaller % of that) and things should seal better overall from a QC standpoint. The alternative is your version 2 with a heavier spring (that version allows for a lot more spring than the original version which has its spring inside the balance chamber as opposed to outside, and spring rating + preload is very adjustable and a great way to alter how a valve is responding, which is more possible in the externally sprung BV)

Your own personal version 2 with the poppet bored out and having the balance chamber built into it, that used a separate valve body than the ss variety?

Nope ... using the same BODY, just different guts from poppet to intake grate / thimble.
In the case of the "Inverted" where I'm able to use a Delrin, Peek or Acetal poppet head, The OEM seat has been removed and I'm sealing the poppet directly against the valve body ( Flat on flat .. Well a slight concave angle on poppet sealing surface )
And in case you missed it ?  The Thimble stem that attaches to the intake grate is using an X / Quad ring.

Welp, there is your answer folks. SS valve body can be converted easily with new guts and see minor improvements in overall sealing and possibly even lower stiction...just requires some fabrication skills. I much prefer this version personally.

I did remove the seat in mine to see if it would seal.  It looked like it might, but nope, it wouldn't.

[Motorhead]

Gen 1 SS valves had a TWO o-ring poppet made of Acetal.  Gen 2 SS valves use a Brass poppet with 1 o-ring.
Thimbles were originally Brass, then Steel. original thimbles threaded on, latter used snap rings.

Yea I understand those changes, but still think a slightly smaller balance on the valve would work better (stiction would even be less of an issue with less balance due to increased force to operate valve and the stiction being a smaller % of that) and things should seal better overall from a QC standpoint. The alternative is your version 2 with a heavier spring (that version allows for a lot more spring than the original version which has its spring inside the balance chamber as opposed to outside, and spring rating + preload is very adjustable and a great way to alter how a valve is responding, which is more possible in the externally sprung BV)

Your own personal version 2 with the poppet bored out and having the balance chamber built into it, that used a separate valve body than the ss variety?

Nope ... using the same BODY, just different guts from poppet to intake grate / thimble.
In the case of the "Inverted" where I'm able to use a Delrin, Peek or Acetal poppet head, The OEM seat has been removed and I'm sealing the poppet directly against the valve body ( Flat on flat .. Well a slight concave angle on poppet sealing surface )
And in case you missed it ?  The Thimble stem that attaches to the intake grate is using an X / Quad ring.

Welp, there is your answer folks. SS valve body can be converted easily with new guts and see minor improvements in overall sealing and possibly even lower stiction...just requires some fabrication skills. I much prefer this version personally.

I did remove the seat in mine to see if it would seal.  It looked like it might, but nope, it wouldn't.

QC issue with JSAR on a Run of valve bodies where the interior area of throat was machined too deep.  In turn an insert was manufactured, glued / hammered in and then throat reamed and transfer port hole drilled.  These bodies nearly all leaked if not for the o-ring sealed seat that captured the O.D. of seats area creating a perimeter seat to body / body to insert.

* This ONLY on BLACK ANODIZED valve bodies I ever saw .... If you look into valves interior and see the throat area is bare / silver aluminum it has the insert.

 Just FYI from seeing it first hand ...

[triggertreat]

Gen 1 SS valves had a TWO o-ring poppet made of Acetal.  Gen 2 SS valves use a Brass poppet with 1 o-ring.
Thimbles were originally Brass, then Steel. original thimbles threaded on, latter used snap rings.

Yea I understand those changes, but still think a slightly smaller balance on the valve would work better (stiction would even be less of an issue with less balance due to increased force to operate valve and the stiction being a smaller % of that) and things should seal better overall from a QC standpoint. The alternative is your version 2 with a heavier spring (that version allows for a lot more spring than the original version which has its spring inside the balance chamber as opposed to outside, and spring rating + preload is very adjustable and a great way to alter how a valve is responding, which is more possible in the externally sprung BV)

Your own personal version 2 with the poppet bored out and having the balance chamber built into it, that used a separate valve body than the ss variety?

Nope ... using the same BODY, just different guts from poppet to intake grate / thimble.
In the case of the "Inverted" where I'm able to use a Delrin, Peek or Acetal poppet head, The OEM seat has been removed and I'm sealing the poppet directly against the valve body ( Flat on flat .. Well a slight concave angle on poppet sealing surface )
And in case you missed it ?  The Thimble stem that attaches to the intake grate is using an X / Quad ring.

Welp, there is your answer folks. SS valve body can be converted easily with new guts and see minor improvements in overall sealing and possibly even lower stiction...just requires some fabrication skills. I much prefer this version personally.

I did remove the seat in mine to see if it would seal.  It looked like it might, but nope, it wouldn't.

QC issue with JSAR on a Run of valve bodies where the interior area of throat was machined too deep.  In turn an insert was manufactured, glued / hammered in and then throat reamed and transfer port hole drilled.  These bodies nearly all leaked if not for the o-ring sealed seat that captured the O.D. of seats area creating a perimeter seat to body / body to insert.

* This ONLY on BLACK ANODIZED valve bodies I ever saw .... If you look into valves interior and see the throat area is bare / silver aluminum it has the insert.

 Just FYI from seeing it first hand ...

All shiny in mine...

[KnifeMaker]

Yep, my prototype has such a valve. i tried everything I could think of to stop the leak. Finally gave up. I have the newer valve now and it is very much better!


Knife/Mike

[triggertreat]

Yep, my prototype has such a valve. i tried everything I could think of to stop the leak. Finally gave up. I have the newer valve now and it is very much better!


Knife/Mike

Mine is one Travis sent me just prior to retiring.  I don't know what rev it is, but it is a SS2 with one stiction O-ring, and all aluminum with no black colors.  I did buy one, and tested many prototypes for him, but never had one that didn't leak at the poppet ,SS1 or SS2.  I was always hopeful though.

[PeterL]

Gen 1 SS valves had a TWO o-ring poppet made of Acetal.  Gen 2 SS valves use a Brass poppet with 1 o-ring.
Thimbles were originally Brass, then Steel. original thimbles threaded on, latter used snap rings.

Yea I understand those changes, but still think a slightly smaller balance on the valve would work better (stiction would even be less of an issue with less balance due to increased force to operate valve and the stiction being a smaller % of that) and things should seal better overall from a QC standpoint. The alternative is your version 2 with a heavier spring (that version allows for a lot more spring than the original version which has its spring inside the balance chamber as opposed to outside, and spring rating + preload is very adjustable and a great way to alter how a valve is responding, which is more possible in the externally sprung BV)

Your own personal version 2 with the poppet bored out and having the balance chamber built into it, that used a separate valve body than the ss variety?

Nope ... using the same BODY, just different guts from poppet to intake grate / thimble.
In the case of the "Inverted" where I'm able to use a Delrin, Peek or Acetal poppet head, The OEM seat has been removed and I'm sealing the poppet directly against the valve body ( Flat on flat .. Well a slight concave angle on poppet sealing surface )
And in case you missed it ?  The Thimble stem that attaches to the intake grate is using an X / Quad ring.

Welp, there is your answer folks. SS valve body can be converted easily with new guts and see minor improvements in overall sealing and possibly even lower stiction...just requires some fabrication skills. I much prefer this version personally.

I did remove the seat in mine to see if it would seal.  It looked like it might, but nope, it wouldn't.

QC issue with JSAR on a Run of valve bodies where the interior area of throat was machined too deep.  In turn an insert was manufactured, glued / hammered in and then throat reamed and transfer port hole drilled.  These bodies nearly all leaked if not for the o-ring sealed seat that captured the O.D. of seats area creating a perimeter seat to body / body to insert.

* This ONLY on BLACK ANODIZED valve bodies I ever saw .... If you look into valves interior and see the throat area is bare / silver aluminum it has the insert.

 Just FYI from seeing it first hand ...

Thanks for pointing that out Scott. It gives customers an idea of where the problems may arise knowing that bandaid fix. I hate half @$$ed work. Then left to solve it yourself. 

Peter

[triggertreat]

Yep, my prototype has such a valve. i tried everything I could think of to stop the leak. Finally gave up. I have the newer valve now and it is very much better!


Knife/Mike

Not a happy camper reading this.