The .20 H.S.

[fwbsport]

Recently I ran into a problem with the rifle and started talking to Hector about sending it to him.
I knew something was "off" with the rifle and had figured I was losing velocity and hitting far right.

Since I was about to send away my prize air rifle and be without it for at least TIME  I decided to change the targets from the steel discs to the various knots in the wood fence nearby the target trap of discs.

I printed 2" to the right without any drop, which was about where the rifle may have been shooting close to in the first place since I do make minor wind changes at 25 yards here in IL.   I went down to the backstop (flagstone and red brick) and soon realized I was having ricochet to the lower right fooling me into thinking it was the impact.  So it's back on target and doing what it's always been doing, destroying the backstop and the bricks AND THE STEEL braces holding the discs!  My pellet trap is permanently bent up out of shape to perform the way it did out of the box.

I told this to Hector last night, and he mentioned having paper behind the targets to help that error!

Today it seems to be shooting a bit faster and smoother compared to when I first got it.  I figure the shooting is making the action become smoother still. 

I know how to cock it while the butt is in my armpit!  That's the way to cock it the fastest and be ready to raise the sights to the target.

 

[Mark 611]

 John let me ask u something, how do you go about ur shooting routine? do you go outside to shoot? do you shoot from inside the house to the outside? What do you do?

[Robert 5mm]

John,
I am curious, which arm pit do you use, right or left ?
I have a D48 and was just trying to cock using either arm pit.
I place butt of the stock on my upper part of my leg to cock.

I include your shooting pic from Hector's post.

[SteveP-52]

The first .177 you sell?? Go buy that chrony I suggested and Hector insisted...lolol. 2 shots would settled your velocity concerns...just sayin...lol

[WHITEFANG]

With all those guns and no chrony? The chrony is your best tool for many reasons. 

A chrony will tell many stories and don't worry about shooting your chrony. Even some of the best are members of I shoot my chrony club.
I'd  suggest  you built a duct seal trap or some other filler and  use some type paper for poi Indicating. 
Doping your scope will eliminate the scope changes.

Shooting paper vs game or objects are 2 different  techniques.  Jmo

[dtdtdtdt]

A chronograph can be had for less than $100 that will work admirably.  Chrony is the brand-name.  They have several inexpensive versions.  I have one that has performed faithfully for several years.  The only "gotcha" with them is that they misbehave if you are working under standard fluorescent lights.  The 60cycle flicker is sometimes read as pellets passing by.  Outdoors not a problem.  They sell an attachment set of led lights that solves that problem. 

There are numerous others that work great too.  I don't recall the vendor name but one is set "upside down" with the pellets passing below the electronics kit with a white background below.  It also isn't terribly expensive. 

As for a backstop, I use the 22 LR backstop sold earlier by Outers and now by others.  Champion comes to mind but I'm not sure.  It has survived thousands of pellets and not just a few 22LR.  And a couple 38 or 9mm!!!  (Not a good idea to shoot those inside the basement though - really upset my wife and the dog!!! 

I will add a url to both items in a couple minutes.

Chrony:

http://www.shootingchrony.com

Champion Bullet Trap:


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwiOy-Ozmf3oAhWCWM0KHSJKBusQFjAAegQIARAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FChampion-Traps-Targets-Bullet-Rimfire%2Fdp%2FB082BHZKK2&usg=AOvVaw3qonK0VxPTaM4z4q5Jp-23

[HectorMedina]

For a number of reasons, but mainly this one (false readings of target impacts) is why I developed the Quadrant Spinner.
Sadly, someone decided to make it cheaply and AoA decided to distribute it and they ruined the concept.

I still have my set, and it works with any power level gun at any distance, they were expensive when properly made, but they will outlast shooter and guns.

I was very happy to hear that John's gun is up to snuff. It was a big relief, LOL!

Anyway, if anyone is interested in the Champion pellet trap, buy it from Pyramyd:

https://www.pyramydair.com/product/champion-heavy-duty-metal-trap?a=1026

There is a $100 savings in there.

;-)

Keep well and shoot straight!






HM

[dtdtdtdt]

Hector-Medina:

Thanks,  I knew I had seen it cheaper that the manufacturer's full list price.  My point was that this is the best one I have ever seen for a portable and readily useable one.  Mine sits in the corner of my workshop with a target on it for ready use when I am tinkering on the air rifles. 

Powder guns are NEVER used in the basement anymore.  My bottom still remembers the attitude and intelligence adjustment my wife gave be after the few times....  I thought she wasn't home!!!!

My daughter uses one of the chronographs that attach directly to the barrel of the gun for her testing.  I looked into it but decided not to go that way as I frequently shoot centerfire rifle and pistol and thought it might not do well on one of those.  A friend told me about a Doppler radar chronograph that costs about $600 that he got.  I haven't investigated it yet but feel that I am too old and blind to shoot very long range rifle where it might be useful.  Might be fun to play with though!!!!!

Cheers

[HectorMedina]

You're welcome, my friend!

The Amazon price is WAY ABOVE the MSRP. Why? probably because they can get away with it (and also because probably, they can/want not how to spell g-o-u-g-i-n-g). People get so used to buying everything from one place that they just click. And spend too much money from their relief checks on things that were never intended for those funds. Anyway, human nature is even more complicated than airguns, so I will stick to airguns.

I have FOUR traps. Two of these Champion ones, One an Do-All Outdoors (screwed version) and another the simple, small, Do All  pellet trap that was reinforced for higher powers:

https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/recipe-for-a-good-pellet-trap

The large Do-All is a disgrace, pellet dust percolates through the rear and it has been consigned to the useless stuff. The smaller performs admirably once strengthened where it counts as relayed in the blog entry. That's the one that sits at the rear of my Chrono station.

The two that truly help are the two welded ones by Champion.
I also got 4 more of them for the Indoors 10 M Match shoots we did at IWLA in Damascus until we were closed down by CV19, we use up to 20 ft-lbs at 10 meters (most shooters are also FT shooters, so we use the same gun for both shoots) and so the punishment these traps take is quite astonishing.

Anyway, some day I will find someone to make properly the quadrant spinners and we can all have a device that helps you get zeroed at the same time that it will last indefinitely and prevent you from the need to change the paper, or paint the plate.
;-)

On the Chrono side, the best bang for your buck is the Pro-Chrono DLX set with built in blue-tooth connectivity and separate IR screens. "All in" you will be paying about $163 (Graf & Sons) but you have e set that you will use it a LOT just because it is easy to use and reliable.

Keep well and shoot straight!





HM

PS.- a bit off topic: I recently replaced a stolen Remington Rolling Block with a DP 45-70 and I am going to start playing with it at subsonic velocities with pellet shaped projectiles  ;-)

[fwbsport]

Aha! Chrony will come.

Thing is the "false" impacts were actually reflected lead back toward me into the ground because the flagstone is angled down towards the shooter.  Pieces of lead were erupting grass in front and to the right of the flagstone, which accounted for the apparent loss of power (shooting low and right because the flagstone is angled not only down but to reflect RIGHT!).

So the secondary impacts going low and right were AFTER the pellet hit the flagstone.  The flagstone is behind the top steel disc that releases the traps (four steel discs) when it is hit, so even when I was hitting the reflections of lead went similarly to the same place after slamming the top disc.

To answer the mysterious questions about where I shoot, inside or outside, I do both.  Inside the doorway (to the grassed porch in the photo I am standing on) to the targets is 25 yards.  Outside I back off to another 5 or 15 yards toward the opposite corner where the traps are. 

In the photo the traps are to the left behind me in the area of the large green box holding city equipment for something.  The traps are to the left of the box against the fenceline.  From the porch doors to those traps is 25 yards.  In the photo I am actually standing and pointing where I can't shoot and don't, mostly because if a trap is set over on that extreme corner it is closer to the porch instead of further, and in bad weather I can't open the porch door (swing it back open--only one door opens inward) and shoot that way.  No clearance inside the house from the closed (locked) door.

I cock the rifle against my right side anywhere from armpit to waist.  I have to be careful of bruising if that buttstock is in the wrong area anywere along that vertical.

I have tightened the leather glove on the stock and stayed with 15.89gr .20s.  The scope continues to amaze me in quality and I want to know more about it, Hector!

[Mark 611]

The reason why I asked this question, I hope u understand going from indoors to out doors will change ur POI, unless u have a consistent temp and humidity, wind {etc} I always keep a few rifles out in my barn to keep them some what acclimated to the outside temps, even at that it only takes a few degrees in temp change to change ur POI! especially with a wood stock

[WHITEFANG]

That is correct and the sledge guns esp. Appliesto.the FWB300/S and the Giss system guns.💀
And yes the PCP guns.and PB's are subject to temp changes.  Im
Acclamation is needed.👀

[mcoulter]

Wow, there's so much information in this thread...  In one of the earlier posts Hector made this remark:

"THEN the process of regulating the barrel can take place"

Googling this turns up information about regulating double barrels and when I add any reference to "air gun" results become about air pressure regulation... 

Can you describe what this process is?

[Mark 611]

Theirs to much to explain! so I hope all who know will give a piece to this explanation! I'm going to start off with air density, from hot to cold, the same principles apply to power burners, if you take a temp stable power to use in ur 308win for example, in 90derg temps it will generally shoot the velocity pre givin charge weight of power with a certain bullet weight, now take the same combination and drop the temp to say 0 degrees you will probably lose a 100fps in that temp, air gun being a bit more sensitive to temp changes + with using a wood stock will not only change ur velocity 60 to 100fps but also ur POI due to the shift of the wood twisting, wood is still a live organism even after it is processed and dried, it will twist and turn along with temp changes, or expand and contract just like the hardwood floors in a house, if you don't keep it in a stable environment or a consistent humidity it will move around, that's why u see cracks or buckling in hard wood floors from warm to cold conditions same thing happens to a wood stock on a rifle!

[Yogi]

Wow, there's so much information in this thread...  In one of the earlier posts Hector made this remark:

"THEN the process of regulating the barrel can take place"

Googling this turns up information about regulating double barrels and when I add any reference to "air gun" results become about air pressure regulation... 

Can you describe what this process is?

Do a search on Hector's posts.  He has expalined this many times before.  He is very meticulous about his procedures.

-Y

[dtdtdtdt]

Regarding regulation of the barrel.  It can be as crude as bending the barrel a bit to put the point of impact to the center of the optically centered crosshairs.  I haven't read Hector's notes but know he did regulate my 20 cal 54 to a treat!!!

Hector:

If you look at the Amazon site, the seller listed at $189 was the MANUFACTURER.  Since I was only looking for the name, I didn't do my purchasing agent routine!!!


I found a long review of the new doppler radar chronograph.  There are two things that make me skeptical about it for air rifles in particular.   The review was several years old so some of the criticisms may have been addressed.  There was reference to an error in standard deviation calculation method and of the difficulty to get it perfectly aligned with the bullet flight path.  The review did direct comparisons with two optical chronographs and found accuracy comparable but naturally each gave a slightly different muzzle velocity and SD.

First, the measurement sequence triggered one of two ways.  First by the sound of the weapon being fired and second by the bullet entering the doppler radar beam on the way to the target.  They make special microphones for air rifles but according to the review they were not too effective at the time of review.  The measurement sequence can also be triggered by a nearby shooter's shot. 

Second;  the measurement is based on the radar waves bouncing off the back end of the bullet! Best results are got with FLAT based bullets.  The reviewer tried a musket with a round ball and found that the ball was stealthy - radar return was  minimal.  Also boat tail bullets looked 'smaller' and harder to see. 

Small diameter projectiles (like pellets) are also harder to see.  I would speculate that the shape of pellets with the open back end could also be problematic. 

My Chrony Master does everything I want it to do so will stick with it.


FWBsport:  Perhaps you ought stand your target spinners on a post???  Richochets off the ground are uncontrollable and can go anywhere.   I was once hit by a richochet 22 LR bullet that left the gun went through the target and returned to hit me in the thigh from 50yds!!!!  I still can find the scar 30years later.  It was interesting because I was zeroing a Win 52C with a Fecker scope at the time and could see the bullets going into the target through the scope (low recoil, bright Oklahoma sunshine and much better vision than now!). I actually saw the bullet go through the paper hit something in the backstop and come back through the target coming toward me!!  I speculate that it hit a wad of lead from the several shot group that I had already shot at the same aim point.

When you get one:
Set your chronograph next to your shooting bench put a target bullseye about 10yds out and sight on it like a regular shot.  That will keep the pellet away from you and the equipment while making the pellet travel through the screens in exactly the same position each time with improved results...   The Chrony uses 1/4" steel rods, sometimes, I use 1/4" dowel rods instead, to show you the zone to shoot into and to hold the LED lights.  I put a couple strips of blue painter's tape across the V, one about 4" above the electronics box and the second about 4" higher.  My bullets or pellets are shot between those strips of tape to maintain a consistent height from the sensors.  I haven't shot anything but the target yet!!!

[SteveP-52]

I keep using a Sharpie to re-mark the rods on my Pro Chrono, but that painters tape is a very good idea. Nice tip, sir!!!

Now we just need to get John to finally buy one...lol. With that list of HW rifles and in all the calibers he has, his real time chrony numbers considering how many shots he has through them since new really could/would be a real asset to someone considering one and what they could reasonably expect down the road.

[fwbsport]

I keep using a Sharpie to re-mark the rods on my Pro Chrono, but that painters tape is a very good idea. Nice tip, sir!!!

Now we just need to get John to finally buy one...lol. With that list of HW rifles and in all the calibers he has, his real time chrony numbers considering how many shots he has through them since new really could/would be a real asset to someone considering one and what they could reasonably expect down the road.

It's going to be part of my air rifle expenditures here on out because NO MORE AIR RIFLES for me!  Declared by Cecelia!  The other things I need to collect brand new are Diana ZR mounts to put on my HW57 and HW80K.

[dtdtdtdt]

Note that I only have 3 air rifles (and about 30 powder guns) because I have filled all the slots in my cabinets and don't care to shoot any of the other air rifles that require the artillery or limey hold (whatever).  They cover all my needs/wants/desires there.  Well maybe a .22 someday!!!

The very first air rifle of quality that I shot was a Daisy imported FWB 300 in the very late 1960s.  I didn't get another one until I got my FWB300SU about 18 years ago.  Later I bought a used 54 and most recently the Hector Special. 

My main shooting these days is powder pistol at an indoor range. 

[ssbn617]

I also recently claimed a small victory over air gun addiction. No credit to me but due lack of funding because of Covid19 everything not used had to go . Going forward, sure would to end with a trifecta of .177,20, and a .22 just because.
Mitch