Beeman R9 Spring Experiment

[SpiralGroove]

Thanks Hector and Fang,
Initially, I'll space up the spring to barely get some preload ... and see how it goes.
Not sure how much shorter the Vortek is vs. the ARH Hornet, but likely a couple of inches.
30 coils @ .120" wire is 3.6" compressed, while the piston can hold up to 5".  So initial test will include a top-hat long enough to begin some pre-load of the spring.  I will then add spacing until I get my desired velocity - if possible.  If shot cycle becomes too harsh before I hit 690 fps using JSB 13.72's, I'll go back to the ARH Hornet.

[WHITEFANG]

.120x29=3.48-.125=3.555 = collapsed spring
5.0-3.355=1.65 this is using you 5"#

*I think the piston depth is Like 4.85 + but still close to 5

4.85-3.355= 1.495
Counting the last coils as 1 coil count would be 29. Spacing @5" would be the 1.655
Spacing at 4.85 would be 1.495.
Calcs are said to be with in  1/16". Plus depends if I did the math correct. Remember to measure your flange thickness. The .125 is a common factor subtracted  in my formalur. This will get you super close on a lock up and proper spaced spring. Jmo
If you are going for a easy cock and a mild shooter the .120 wire should be fine but imo will not be as the Hornet in fps.

[SpiralGroove]

Well Fang,
I was looking for a spring to give me more power vs. my existing ARH Hornet . 
I read where the Vortek PG3 HO kit would give more power than the ARH Hornet, that's why I bought the Vortek spring that goes with the HW95 PG3 HO kit. 
In retrospect, I should have bought a custom spring with .128 wire and 40 coils and simply trimmed coils until I got what I wanted in terms of velocity.
Shot harshness is just another deal breaker.

We'll see

[WHITEFANG]

Understand. By Vortek site that spring should be: {785125-29.5ocHth}
That would be a .125 wire with 29.5 or so coils, open coils. I have not seen the PG3 kits? By his advertising it looks to be a good spring. As mentioned before the wire comp has changed with Vortek by using small wire sizes vs heavy wire and getting by claims the same output power of a heavy wire. Here he is using the open coils as a live coil which changes the game. New one for me. WE WILL SEE SOON WHAT YOU GOT?

.129X29=3.74-.125=3.616-4.85=1.234 SPACING If this was the case but still depends on the piston depth? A rough calculation and again if I did the math correct? SWAG 5" as we know would be more spacing? Not really sure on this application?
Seems like a bunch of spacing and makes me wonder and I could be all wrong? Testing will tell the story? As always I could be all wet on this?

[Machined pitch into guide arrangement. HELICAL GUIDE FITTING with open coils, allowing use of all coils for more accurate output across product line. The new PG3-Guides have a near fit to its power grid with thicker guides, less spring equaling less fatigue, better sound deadening. Liner firing movement consistent deviations shot after shot.]

[SpiralGroove]

[Machined pitch into guide arrangement. HELICAL GUIDE FITTING with open coils, allowing use of all coils for more accurate output across product line. The new PG3-Guides have a near fit to its power grid with thicker guides, less spring equaling less fatigue, better sound deadening. Liner firing movement consistent deviations shot after shot.]

I got this one: HW95-PG3-SPRING_HO
NEW PG3-OC REPLACEMENT SPRING PG3-HW95 HO KIT This spring fits the NEW PG3 Pro-GUIDE KIT guide arra..

My spring is .120" wire.  I closed the ends in my application as I have no HELICAL guide . 
Including top-hat, I have roughly 1.35" of spacing before the gun won't cock. 
I took off .005" for slop.  30 x .120" = 3.6"; 5"- 3.6 = 1.4"  less .005.

I'll make the top-hat tonight and shave an HW spring guide ... assemble in the AM. 
However, my gut is telling me "this isn't going to be an improvement".

[WHITEFANG]

New one in me on the guide and spring but I understand the guide being HELICAL  must match the coil of the spring.
That's why the end coils were open and live using them in the stored and release of the coils energy.

Sure would have been better if the spring was a beefy . 125 wire as indicated in Tom's part # code.

🤕

[SpiralGroove]

Hey Guys ... a Surprising update:
Put the Vortek HO spring in my R9 this morning .
Last night I had checked the ARH site, I noticed Jim's HW50 spring has 30 coils x .120" (same as the Vortek HO for the R9).  So I never thought the R9 Vortek spring's power could exceed the ARH Hornet spring at 38 coils at .125".  This must have been an older ARH spring as the Hornet is now listed as 37 coils at .128".

Therefore, last night I made the top-hat for the Vortek HO spring to be 1.125" long .  I installed the spring using a cut down (3.5" length) and slightly shaved down HW95 spring guide.  Also, because the spring guide and top-hat fit pretty tight (I was already using a plastic water bottle inside the piston to prevent twang), I didn't put hardly any tar (but some) on the spring nor clear tar on the spring guide.  I was being lazy and didn't even remove the piston from the gun, just crammed in the spring guide, spring and top-hat adding a little molly to the spring ends, top-hat and spring guide washer.

Anyway, the preliminary results are in:
1) Gun is slightly harder to cock ... no biggie for me .
2) Faster shot cycle or lock time.
3) Slightly harsher recoil - but very accommodating.
4) Average velocity - 5 shots - 759 fps; JSB 13.72 grain 20 cal. pellets .  
5) That's and average 17.6 FPE.

Anyway, very happy with the initial results, but will wait for spring break-in.  Didn't touch piston seal or anything other than adding a new spring and making adjustments so it would fit - closed ends of spring too.

If the power level keeps up, I my reduce the length of my top-hat to get an average 710/725 fps or so as maximum power is not my aim here - just a faster shot cycle (lock time & somewhat increased Velocity.

Kirk
 

[Eddie_E]

I'm curious how the accuracy is at the new power level. That is very close to the power output of most Crosman NP models in .22

[SpiralGroove]

I'm curious how the accuracy is at the new power level. That is very close to the power output of most Crosman NP models in .22

Accuracy unchanged, but slightly more hold sensitive.  Shot cycles lock time close to what I'm seeing in my HW95 .177 caliber with Hornet spring or HW80 with ARH spring with same 20 caliber pellet.
Pretty impressive, but for how long?  Well see .

[Mark 611]

provided ur seals are good? it will lose very little power! or it may gain some if the seal on the piston is new? not broke in yet, but good to hear ur results

[SpiralGroove]

provided ur seals are good? it will lose very little power! or it may gain some if the seal on the piston is new? not broke in yet, but good to hear ur results  

Yeah Mark,
Kind of surprised by the whole turn of events .

Because I didn't even pull the piston out of the receiver tube, using OEM piston seal with about 250 shots on it.  The tune was to give me a faster lock time (no lock-time delay) and I got that, which also means more velocity with the JSB 13.72.
I don't think the piston seal hits any harder than my other two hard shooters, so time will tell how long the spring, seal and velocity will last.  If it continues for another tin, I'll likely trim the top-hat to bring my power down to 16+ FPE or so.  Don't want to stress the system for unnecessary, excess power , but want to keep the quick lock-time.

[Mark 611]

I have in the past used a larger wire diameter and lost power over a smaller wire diameter, I pretty sure the larger wire was stacked to much, even tho it functioned, it was not releasing its energy as it should have, it too made the rifle more hold sensitive and harder to shoot accurately, from ur post If it doesn't calm down after a tin I would check everything again inside, and maybe reduce ur stack height just my thought's

[SpiralGroove]

I have in the past used a larger wire diameter and lost power over a smaller wire diameter, I pretty sure the larger wire was stacked to much, even tho it functioned, it was not releasing its energy as it should have, it too made the rifle more hold sensitive and harder to shoot accurately, from ur post If it doesn't calm down after a tin I would check everything again inside, and maybe reduce ur stack height just my thought's

Well Yoda,
Kind of like a new car, put a new engine in and it handles differently.  Gotta get re-acquainted with the gun as I only have about 25 shots through it so far, but the power vs. handling difference is easily worth it .

Because I was afraid the experiment was going to turn out badly (low power), I changed my mind and used over a 1"+ delrin top-hat, so the spacing of the spring is pretty aggressive.  So if power needs to be decreased, I'll reduce the top-hat length instead of clipping coils.

Normally, when I change out a spring, I pull the piston and check & re-lube everything.  In this case, I was cutting my losses by just slapping it together (wisely).  So if I go back in, I'll likely add more plastic inside the piston to accommodate the smaller diameter spring, re-do a couple of buttons and re-evaluate the piston seal.

Lastly, the faster shot cycle seems to have stirred up some hidden Molly or Superlube in the compression chamber causing the gun to diesel a little more so.  This is likely increasing velocity too.
We'll see ... the experiment is still preliminary ....

The PG3 HO spring and my otherwise basic tune make my gun shoot and feel like
The Son of the Beeman R1 -> aka SOB R1 .     

[SpiralGroove]

Update: Shot another 25 - 40 shots:
- JSB 13.72  - Ave 725 fps or 16.0 FPE
- H&N 11.42 - Ave 805 fps or 16.4 FPE

Shot cycle still has quick lock-time, however, I can feel on the 725 fps JSB's the spring is (almost) approaching the point where I can feel a hesitation in lock-time.

[Bayman]

Update: Shot another 25 - 40 shots:
- JSB 13.72  - Ave 725 fps or 16.0 FPE
- H&N 11.42 - Ave 805 fps or 16.4 FPE

Shot cycle still has quick lock-time, however, I can feel on the 725 fps JSB's the spring is (almost) approaching the point where I can feel a hesitation in lock-time.

What difference does it make??

Which one is more accurate??

Your choices in pellets are very limited. Stay with the one that you can hit the target with. Honestly there's way too much thought process going on here. If a spring doesn't perform as well as you'd like, change it. This isn't rocket science it takes 20 bucks and 15 minutes, 20 tops to change a spring in a Hw95 / R9 platform. It shouldn't take a group decision over 3 days and a pat on the back to decide a course of action. 
More doing and less polling might be in order.

[Chouchin66]

Update: Shot another 25 - 40 shots:
- JSB 13.72  - Ave 725 fps or 16.0 FPE
- H&N 11.42 - Ave 805 fps or 16.4 FPE

Shot cycle still has quick lock-time, however, I can feel on the 725 fps JSB's the spring is (almost) approaching the point where I can feel a hesitation in lock-time.

Kirk; that's almost exactly where my R9 settled in at(' crept just under 800 w/ FTT)... Been that way for +/- 1000 shots... Sounds like you're 'll likely have same. Enjoy !

[SpiralGroove]

Update: Shot another 25 - 40 shots:
- JSB 13.72  - Ave 725 fps or 16.0 FPE
- H&N 11.42 - Ave 805 fps or 16.4 FPE

Shot cycle still has quick lock-time, however, I can feel on the 725 fps JSB's the spring is (almost) approaching the point where I can feel a hesitation in lock-time.

What difference does it make??

Which one is more accurate??

Your choices in pellets are very limited. Stay with the one that you can hit the target with. Honestly there's way too much thought process going on here. If a spring doesn't perform as well as you'd like, change it. This isn't rocket science it takes 20 bucks and 15 minutes, 20 tops to change a spring in a Hw95 / R9 platform. It shouldn't take a group decision over 3 days and a pat on the back to decide a course of action. 
More doing and less polling might be in order.

Bayman,
The JSB 13.72 grain pellet is easily the most accurate.  I wanted to get faster lock-time than my ARH Hornet spring provided.  Didn't want to spend $80 on a Vortek kit, hence bought the PG3 HO spring and now testing in MY set-up.  I put up numbers for the H&N FTT because many folks here like to shoot it.

This post is entitled Beeman R9 Spring Experiment - If you don't want to read about tinkering or experimenting ... don't read the post
If you don't buy the NO Brainer kit, then you need to worry about spacing the spring as it's 2" shorter than the Hornet.  This is about mixing things up and testing to get a desired goal.

Just trying to give other folks the information as I get results.

This post isn't an attempt to be self indulgent or attention seeking as you suggest below.
This isn't rocket science it takes 20 bucks and 15 minutes, 20 tops to change a spring in a Hw95 / R9 platform. It shouldn't take a group decision over 3 days and a pat on the back to decide a course of action. 

[Yogi]

Kirk,  I appreciate your efforts!  Keep it up.

You are saving me 20 bucks and 15 minutes times a bunch...

-Y

[SpiralGroove]

Kirk,  I appreciate your efforts!  Keep it up.
You are saving me 20 bucks and 15 minutes times a bunch...
-Y

Bayman is a great guy ,
I'm in a slightly grouchy mood because my Wife and daughter have been pisssy tonight  .

[RBQChicken]

What is meant by "lock time"?