Beeman R9 Spring Experiment

[SpiralGroove]

Hey Guys,
I ordered a Vortek HW95 HO spring yesterday - $19 plus shipping.
I didn't buy the whole kit, but will use the stronger spring along with my basic tune as I'm curious to see the results.  The Vortek spring will likely be stouter than my .125" hornet spring and have less coils.  With top-hat and spacers, will see what I can get in terms of power and balanced, smooth shot cycle.

I know I can turn a smaller spring guide/top-hat on my lathe and know spring twang will not be an issue even without the traditional Vortek plastic sleeved set-up.

[Yogi]

Hey Guys,
I ordered a Vortek HW95 HO spring yesterday - $19 plus shipping.
I didn't buy the whole kit, but will use the stronger spring along with my basic tune and am curious to see the results.  The Vortek spring will likely be stouter than my .125" hornet spring and have less coils.  With top-hat and spacers, will see what I can get in terms of power and balanced, smooth shot cycle.

I know I can turn a smaller spring guide/top-hat on my lathe and know spring twang will not be an issue even without the traditional Vortek plastic sleeved set-up.

Kirk,

I have often wondered how the reverse of what you are doing would work.  Instead of a Vortek spring in an ARH set-up, I wonder what a ARH spring would be like in a Vortek set-up.  Does ARH even have a spring narrow enough to fit inside the Vortek sleeve?

Should be interesting?

-Y

[SpiralGroove]

Hey Guys,
I ordered a Vortek HW95 HO spring yesterday - $19 plus shipping.
I didn't buy the whole kit, but will use the stronger spring along with my basic tune and am curious to see the results.  The Vortek spring will likely be stouter than my .125" hornet spring and have less coils.  With top-hat and spacers, will see what I can get in terms of power and balanced, smooth shot cycle.

I know I can turn a smaller spring guide/top-hat on my lathe and know spring twang will not be an issue even without the traditional Vortek plastic sleeved set-up.

Kirk,

I have often wondered how the reverse of what you are doing would work.  Instead of a Vortek spring in an ARH set-up, I wonder what a ARH spring would be like in a Vortek set-up.  Does ARH even have a spring narrow enough to fit inside the Vortek sleeve?

Should be interesting?
-Y

Yogi, I don't know, I've never bought an ARH kit, just the spring un-set and buttons.  I refuse the spend $75 to $90 on parts I can manufacture myself -> aka North Carolina - ED.
So this is "my tune" (which is likely close to a ARH kit ?) using the Vortek spring. 

I had purchased a Vortek kit for my HW30 back in 2017, but the meager increase in velocity was not worth the additional shot cycle harshness.... went back to a JM spring and OEM piston seal.

This time I believe I can get the velocity I want, it's just of ... at what cost in terms of harshness.  I will clip coils if necessary to get may ideal velocity/shot cycle if it can be done.  Otherwise, I'll toss the spring like I did with the HW30 Vortek kit.

As my title suggests, this is a experiment - Fang please chime in as you likely have already done this .

[makarov76]

Let me know what you get’

I put my HW95 .177 barrel on my R9 last week with my original tune’ tek .128 spring & vac-seal’

It’s my power springer’
8.64 H&N 915fps
Solid nan accurate’

[Mark 611]

Kirk I'll have to buzz OC to let him know he's summoned here!

[WHITEFANG]

No R9/HW95 here. I've had the HW95 and used a Vortek spring. In the R10 I used the Hornet spring but never shot the heavy pellets that I remember? But could have and will have to look back. I may have shot the H@N Baracuda out of it but I only tested the R10 IN .20 AND WENT BACK TO .177. In the .177 the hornet spring was great. But I am not sure of the R10 vs the R9 stroke lengths but they should be close.
Vortek has change wire compositions so much I can't keep up with them. Just by looking at the Jm vs Tom's the Vortek has fewer coils and both in the HO are 125 wire.
JM Hornet = .125 x 38
Vortek HO = .125 X 29.5
 Big difference in coils? Tom's springs on a norm come out hot. But some over time after setting in and did lose fps. Jims usually take set and keep up the fps. You are going to lose some FPS after the springs take set.

As to the R9 .20 shooting the 13's U are loading the power plant. Seal fit has to be right. To tight and the heavy pellet could have an off shot cycle,,,,,, no SNAP.
 This goes with the JM vs tom on the R1/HW80 wire size?
 JM Power = .135 x 32.
Vortek HO = .152 x 26.5
Understandable the coil difference in this application. I know the VORTEK HO spring came out hot and was shooting the Baracudes Close to 800 + FPS but the last time I shot it the power seemed to have fallen off. That was after the 12" barrel chop and I would have to go back and look at the data. I've shot so many lately that I can't keep up with the chrony #'s.

JM sometimes close coils to shorten the spring and uses the bound coils as spacing. You do not always have to chop coils to get lower fps.  I will say I have had failures with both JM and Vortek springs over time. Not many of the JM but some.

I'd try a .128 wire and see how that does but who is to say just how the shot cycle will be and again with spring material changes what you will get. With the spring math you can use any spring and calculate counting coils and plugging numbers. JMO.
 I am not a kit buyer. A big waste of money in my case as you with a lathe. No twang no buzz!!! Top hat and a good fitting guide is the key. Plus a good seal.
AJMO

No real help here at the moment. After I finish what I am doing Ill do some research and looking back.

[SpiralGroove]

Thanks for responding Fang.
Yeah, 38 coils @ .128" would be nice to try out.  .486" + .125" top-hat would give me .498"  .
Kirk

[WHITEFANG]

Don't think you would ever make that work. 38 Coil . 128 would stack up quick. Unless you meant 28 could.
Was thinking the factory spring was . 125 32-33 coils. Could be wrong w/o going to the shop and looking.

[WHITEFANG]

The R9 is a 85 stroke in cm2 and the R10 is 89 in CM2.
R1 is 80 in CM2

Found this data on the R10 in . 20 with the Hornet spring H&N 11.42gr plus an Airseal moly. AS said do not worry about chrony testing till many shots for brake in of the seal. Factory hone marks were in this compression tube and my lathe de glaze. The seal was a bit tighter than I like but worked out after brake in. The seal was used in the de stroke build with a fine shooter.

[SpiralGroove]

Hey Fang,
Got the Vortek HO spring today for my HW95/R9.  After I closed the two spring ends it measured 30 coils at .120", so 7 less coils and spring wire smaller than the ARH.  Closing the ends will reduce power a tad.

- ARH Hornet = 37 coils @ .125" wire; which gave me 690/700 fps from JSB 13.72 or about 14.5/15FPE
- Vortek HO = 30 coils @ .120" wire

However, the Vortek spring is more aggressively wrapped (tilted) and the wire appears to be stiffer.

I'm not sure how the Vortek spring will outpower the ARH, but their kits do?
 
I will likely need to heavily space the Vortek spring as it only compresses to 3.6" in the 5" piston.
I will make a thick top-hat and use a HW spring guide; only needing shave the SG down a bit to fit snug.
   

[Yogi]

Kirk,

What is the OD of both springs?

Thanks,

-Yogi

[Sky]

Aren't all the springs from vortek, JM, Titan etc just valve springs cut to custom lengths? If that's the case it should be possible to get a lot of sizes in long lengths for cheap. The material is dirt cheap.

[SpiralGroove]

Kirk,
What is the OD of both springs?
Thanks,
-Yogi

Hey Y,
This is a unscientific estimate because my Hornet spring is inside my gun at this time, but I believe their about the same with the ARH Spring being larger. 
The ARH Spring has a slightly larger ID and is slightly thicker wire, so about .20" larger OD.

[SpiralGroove]

Aren't all the springs from vortek, JM, Titan etc just valve springs cut to custom lengths? If that's the case it should be possible to get a lot of sizes in long lengths for cheap. The material is dirt cheap.

- No, I think there is a lot more that goes into theses springs than cutting general springs to legnth.  However, it's somewhat of a mystery to me🤔.

[Sky]

Aren't all the springs from vortek, JM, Titan etc just valve springs cut to custom lengths? If that's the case it should be possible to get a lot of sizes in long lengths for cheap. The material is dirt cheap.

- No, I think there is a lot more that goes into theses springs than cutting general springs to legnth.  However, it's somewhat of a mystery to me🤔.

That's something I want to know. I really doubt there are airgun specific springs out there.

[limbshaker]

The Vortek springs are generally smaller in diameter. This makes them effectively stiffer (stronger) and consequently also more stressed and will fatigue sooner. They are smaller I assume so that they will fit inside the dual guide deal and the whole works still be able to fit inside the piston.

My prediction is the Maccari spring will cock easier for the same power output, and stay consistent for a lot longer. Have fun tinkering with it, either will make a pellet get downrange in a hurry 

[SpiralGroove]

Kirk,
What is the OD of both springs?
Thanks,
-Yogi

Hey Y,
This is a unscientific estimate because my Hornet spring is inside my gun at this time, but I believe their about the same with the ARH Spring being larger. 
The ARH Spring has a slightly larger ID and is slightly thicker wire, so about .20" larger OD.

Correction: That should have read 20 thousands of an inch - hence not much different .

[Mark 611]

JM springs are hand wound by JM from bar stock, their not valve springs

[HectorMedina]

Springs are complicated, but not impossible to understand.

If you care to read these two entries:

https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/lets-talk-springs

and

https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/lets-talk-springs-ii-geometry

You will get a peek into what makes an airgun spring special.

In very brief terms, airguns springs are special because:

1.- Their slenderness ratio is almost unthinkable to an industrial spring maker
2.- The material that needs to go into the spring SHOULD be different from the more common industrial or automotive materials used.
3.- They are made in VERY SMALL numbers.

Top notch TRUE Top notch automotive valve springs are conical on both ends, stubby and very stiff. More common ones are at least forged and squared, these are made by the millions.
No one winds continuous lengths of springs to cut them, then close them, then square them. Too expensive.

Modern spring-winding machinery, wind springs without mandrels, and can put a single or a double closure at the time of fabrication, only squaring needs to be done and that is also done by machinery. Machine squared springs have an incredibly thin edge, and that is a failure point for airgun use.
Some machines can even wind in one sense, then reverse the direction and wind in the other sense.

Still, the truth is that what sets airguns springs apart is that the best springs are expensive to make because we only need runs of hundreds (IF we are lucky), runs of 20 are common. There is simply too much variety to accumulate any real numbers.

Read the entries and play with the calculator. Enter real data from airguns' springs and you will see that MOST come out with warnings:
Your spring will buckle
You are exceeding the material yield strength
Your high load exceeds the allowable stress
.
.
.
etc.

And by the time you find the right combination of material, and geometry, each spring costs $25 with a minimum order of 20 pcs.

:-P

Keep well and shoot straight!






HM

[WHITEFANG]

Nice read material Hector.

Kirk, what spring did you order? I must have looked at another spring. .125 wire was what I saw but that was the replacement PG3 spring. Note that kit was made for what ever TH size and what ever spacing Tom puts at the rear with his kits.

Vortek springs use to be wound in the opposite of the factory and JM. On Vortek site you can order what he offers in longer lengths, different  wire size and more than likely from JM AS WELL. On Vortek site you have to look at the material of the springs that he claims is in the spring and he calls the tuning springs.

Some do not count the last coils in the coil count and more or less say it is a dead coil having little or nothing to do with the stored energy. Experimenting with springs can be costly but that's what many of us do right or wrong.

It is a known fact that big wire and many coils do not always work like we want. If the spring can not store or release it's energy the end result will not be as intended. That also goes with too much spacing.

This goes to the pcp hammer springs. A Hammer springs will adj but at some point the fps will decline as you crank in too much HS or you will over obtain the pellets best fps.  Same goes with changing HS wire size, length and or adding weight. To me the spring gun and the PCP hammer springs, yet 2 different applications, work similar in ways but not the true power plant in a pcp. Only a tuning device that strikes the valve and works the release of stored air. But in the PCP the more hammer applied the longer the valve is opened or opened longer can occur. Wasted air and lower fps can be seen.

All JMO but you can over spring a spring gun and get good FPS and maybe accurate. The design of the gun has limits. Hard cocking can be hard on the user, the gun and we know the scope. It all just depends on you goal for the gun plus the pellet you use. More power has a trade off in many applications and can be more difficult for some to harness. But many off us continue playing. Big magnum power was at one time what I thought was what I wanted. Now in a spring gun I want a balanced accurate decent powered gun. After taking the time to shoot  6 fpe guns and 12 fpe I see just what that power will do. Shot placement is a must as in any gun. Being able to place the shot for a dead on the spot kill as on paper is where it is at. On shot placement you are able to take advantage of even head shots when that is all you have.

I'll be watching for you testing.