Tank w/Free air vs Compressor?

[45Bravo]

It seems you have a good handle on things.

A lot of the newcomers we get here have very little airgun experience other than springers bought from walmart, or airguns they had as kids..

And their firearm experience is sometimes limited to their favorite ruger 1022 for squirrel  hunting, and their favorite remington model 700..

While you can tune an airgun to the fill pressure you want it to.
I have always found it best to determine where the RIFLE WANTS to be shot, and fill to that pressure.

By changing pellet weight to overcome the vertical stringing, you are ahead of a lot of shooters, as that is something that a lot of airgun enthusiast don't bother doing.

Since you are compensating for the pressure/velocity drop your rifle is apparently not regulated, by filling over where the valve works most efficiently, you get a partial valve lock, and the velocity actually drops because the air pressure in the tank closes the valve sooner than it does at a lower pressure.

MOST airgunners are seeking more power to compensate for the limited energy airguns develop compared to powder burners, often sacrificing accuracy in the process.

I used 3300 psi as a fill pressure as that is the "suggested" pressure, but in reality, it is almost always less than the rated fill pressure due to the valve lock I mentioned.

And once you drop below 1800 psi, as you have found out, your accuracy is gone..

There is a lot of very knowledgeable people here with a broad base of experiences, and are always willing to help.

Ian.
 
 

[45Bravo]

thanks, those little Vmax rounds are really great when applied to soft targets.

When I shot it, I was surprised at the amount of expansion in the short distance of a golf ball.

Normally a 5.56 just zips through with no expansion

We shot some vmax projectiles at open top gallon paint cans filled with water, there was an entry hole, but no exit hole.

All of the energy was transferred to the water in that short distance.


The benchrest keyboard is going to be shared with some friends.

I have been a competitive shooter since the mid 80's.

Don't matter what it was, if it had a trigger, I was there.

I even tried 3D archery competition for a couple of years, I missed the bang..

Ian

[maraudinglizard]

I own 5 scuba tanks and use to get free top offs until the hurricane came along and changed things. I bought the nomad ll and that has made a big difference. I don't have to look for fills, drag tanks around, and now own guns that fill over 3000 or 200 bar. It's ac/dc, comes with a carrying case, weighs about 20lbs, and can go anywhere with it. It has held up well to the Hercules(250bar) so far, I have the Ataman M2R coming and it fills to 300bar(4350psi). I paid $650 for it earlier this year and have no regrets buying it. Just another option to look at down the road, good luck.

[avator]

I think you would be hard pressed to find reports of premature failures of the Yong Heng class compressors from folks who ONLY filled guns directly.. Unless, of course, it was a faulty unit in the first place... and that is possible with anything we buy.
My opinion is in no way meant to judge or to disrespect folks who choose to use their equipment as they choose. It's yours, wash it as fast as you want.
I've got a year's service so far from my $220 Vevor and its running like the day I unboxed it. I also have 2 SCUBA tanks, 2 SCBA tanks and an MKII Airmax Extreme compressor for filling them that I rarely, if ever, use since I got the Vevor.
At the end of the day, I highly recommend that you go with your gut feelings and buy the setup you feel comfortable with. I'm just sharing my experience... which is what, I think, you asked for.

[avator]

BTW.... I didn't reduce my arsenal... just my list... 

[KnifeMaker]

I wouldn't worry much about using your shop compressor. Yes Tom K. of Shoebox says oilless only. this is for liability reasons.  However, with a proper filter, there is no problem what so ever. (Unless your compressor is on its last leg. )LOL! Remember, all Real Dive compressors are splash oiled. The filters take care of it. If they can produce breathable air, a simple PCP is  a walk in the park!

I ran an original for over ten years ona 60 gal shop compressor Ingersoll Rand) with NO issues. I now run the F-10 with the same set up. No oil is introduced into the system other than the silicone oil shoe box uses, which kills any corrosion if any moisture is introduced. Again. Proper filters take care of it.

I simply wore out the originaloriginal. I shoot big bores and bill daily for the most part. And it is still rebuildable. Just wanted a faster fill, so went with the F-10.

[DrGunner]

45Bravo- thanks for yet more helpful info-
And you’re spot on, my Regal XL is not the Huma regulated variety.  I’ve found it to be consistent enough through at least 35, if not 40 shots of each fill which turns out to be perfect as a silhouette match is 40 targets. Dropping pellet weight with pressure only made logical sense to me, something I’ve done in my reloading as well with powder charge and bullet weight.

And YES! Hornady SSTs w/ those little polymer tipped VMax bullets really perform!
I get excellent accuracy out of their Steel Match for the price, but when I want to really stretch it out I shoot Black Hills loads.
My distance/accuracy heavy barreled AR is a Core 15 VTP II 20” Stainless Match, topped with a Nikon M-223 4-16 SF 600BDC. It’s a great combo. I’ve often considered getting a CZ 527 Euro Varmint, varmint barreled bolt action .223 just for the fun of long range shooting.

MaraudingLizard- thanks for the vote of confidence on the Nomad II. I’ve watched plenty of videos, and if/when I get a compressor, it’s high on a short list.

Avator- I didn’t mean to outright PooPoo the Yong Heng. I’ve read some reviews that were none too complimentary- but here’s the thing- they all seem to be in the last 3 months or so, and seem to coincide with a rash of counterfeit YH units. Lots of problems, like piston rods made of pot metal that break & destroy the cylinder.

So I’ll ask- is there a reputable source for the real thing?

Is there any warranty to speak of?

How much do you use yours?

I’m all for saving money and I’m handy enough with tools & equipment. My problem is time. I own two businesses that I run solo, and have kids. I want something that works, with as little maintenance as possible- and in that light, am not averse to spending more to ensure maximum enjoyment with minimal work

KnifeMaker-

My shop compressor is a solid 220V, 80 gallon 2 stage beast. I can easily get a clean airline that’s never been used with oil or tools.

What do the shoeboxes cost?

What maintenance?

Setup/ancillary equipment?

What are it’s capabilities- advantages/disadvantages compared to a YH or Nomad?

I would only be filling the rifle and maybe a small tank.

To ALL- THANK YOU SO MUCH! As always, I’m learning a lot of useful info here, which is part of the fun for me-

DrGunner

[DrGunner]

Here’s a good question for y’all:

Is it possible to safely use a Yong Heng or Nomad II to top off a small tank, say like 90 CID if you do it in increments of say 200-300 PSI and allow it to cool down overnight between each run?

Or is that not advisable?

DrG

[45Bravo]

I can not speak to the yong heng, as I have not owned one.
But I have followed the threads here watching what the users have come up with to make them more reliable with what they have.
 
But it seems like a college level science project that went retail.

The same with the shoebox, I have owned one of those. 

I have always looked at the shoe box as a high school science experiment.

The spring loaded inertia shutoff is ingenious, simple and does not rely on electronics.

It needs a compressor for an input, and filters on the output.

A lot of people run filters on both sides, input and output. 

The shoebox runs for hours with no problems.

The life of a compressor is all about heat and lubrication.

The nomad2 is meant to work for short durations, and let it cool when the temp starts getting too high.

Pumping the small pony bottle in relays has been done by some owners.

The YH with its water cooling solves the problem some, but there is still the quality of the materials used in the build.
And needs filters on the output.

I was looking seriously at the nomad2, and the Hatsan spark as they seem to be the better of the small compressors.

Then I lucked into an Omega Supercharger at a deal I could not pass up.

It is what the nomad would be if the nomad was built to pump large tanks.

Self contained, water cooled, quiet, (about as loud as a dishwasher), has an automatic air/water separator built in,  auto shut off, the ability to pump guns and tanks.

Plug the cord into the electricity, connect the tank or gun to the fill hose, set your max fill pressure, turn it on, and let it go to town.

The only downside is it weighs about 60 lbs.

But I don’t intend on carrying it.

Ian

[KnifeMaker]

the modern ShoeBox F-10 is faster than all the previous modes. I fill from 3500 to 4500 in a 1 hr cf tank in 1 hr and 10 minutes. It does have electronic shut-off unlike most of the previous models. There is no comparison between it and the low cost Chinese offerings.  Everyone praises the Chines offerings and shy how much they love the. Between all the post of issues. Failed pistons,. valves, rods, Over heating, and stopping multiple times in a fill to cool down and many issues with d"Total Failure", and keep buying new parts. I have 134 hours on the SB and not one single issue. Perion!   


However, If I were able to spend more, it would take a look at the compressor offered By Nick and Dyotat100 at NSA Airgun bullets. It s a true professional work horse.  For less money, yet still a pro compressor, the Daystate 110 model at AOA is under 2 grand and will last a lifetime, as will the NSA offering


te SB is American made, quality materials, and backed by full support. the nomad has many failures already listed as well. Another lack luster Chinese may (Will fail) pop. But at least it does have support. "IF your are willing to pay the high shipping to have it shiping both ways for repair. GRRRRR!!!


Take a look at the Carrette as well at AirTanks for sale. (Joe Brancato)


KnifeMaker 

[DrGunner]

I can not speak to the yong heng, as I have not owned one.
But I have followed the threads here watching what the users have come up with to make them more reliable with what they have.
 
But it seems like a college level science project that went retail.

Ian

Thanks- I just snorted coffee out my nose!
I’ve spent a good deal of time watching the various setup vids on YouTube, & often thought the same.

20 or 30 years ago when I had more time than money I’d have been all over a YH setup & probably would have gone whole hog on the bubba engineering and designed & built a YH with the coil from a college dorm fridge suspended in the cooling water tank, all self contained in custom boxes and likely mounted on a cart.

For my current purposes, I just don’t want to bother with making space and investing time in the setup/maintenance associated with the YH or Shoebox.

Call me lazy, but at this point in my life I just want plug and play.


I’m not trying to disparage the YH or those who are smarter/more ambitious than I & run them flawlessly- I’m not here to ruffle any feathers.

I’m going to go ahead & pick up the starter tank from Ninja Paintball and take it from there.
In the meantime, I’ll probably hit the yellow classifieds and see if I can’t pick up a more substantial unit like a Carette at a decent price.

The portability of the Nomad is a plus.

Question- what other compressors can y’all recommend in the $500-1000 range, that would be reliable?

Hope Y’all have a great Sunday!!!

DrGunner

[DrGunner]

KnifeMaker- I think we posted simultaneously, kinda ironic cuz I just mentioned looking for a used Carette in my last post. I’ve read many good things about them, but $1200 is just too far out of my price range, at least for now when I do not have a solid handle on what my air demands/usage will be. Maybe next summer I will find myself shooting the heck out of this thing and will end up there plus another gun safe, this one full of PCPs- you never know as I am OCD about rifles.

You mentioned one hour full-time for the Shoebox – does that mean that you’re running your shop compressor nonstop for one hour? If that’s the case it’s a complete non-starter.
My shop compressor is in my connected garage, just outside our kitchen. My Black Max is LOUD. If I try to run my shop compressor for more than 10 minutes, my wife would either refuse to cook or mount my head on a pike.

DrGunner

[DLP]

Not sure what your fill pressure is on your Regal. But if it’s over 2700/2900 make sure you get a tank with out a regulated 2900 fill output like a lot of the small tanks come with.

[Chickenthief]

Why have'nt anyone mentioned a pneumatic booster and a pony bottle?
Use the clean compressed air to run the booster and supply the HP side at the same time.
Hey presto a pony bottle thats always full to the brim with clean dry air, and supply is limitless.

[AlanMcD]

Kevin,

The shop compressor rarely runs when we run the Shoebox - these are rated to fill at a rate that uses 10 cubic feet of air per hour (my older Max model does about 6.5 CF per hour).  Your beast of a compressor (with an 80 gallon tank, no less) might not even need to cycle at all in hour, if it were at full pressure at the start of the hour.  And even it it comes on, it will be for a very short cycle as yours sounds like it probably puts out over 10 cubic feet per minute . . . and you won't run for an hour to fill the small tank your are thinking of getting anyways.

I run mine with a 15 gallon 125psi Craftsman oiless compressor that is in my garage (rated at ~5 CFM at 90 PSI), and plumbed into my work shop.  I make a point of starting with it full and cooled down all the way (less moisture into my desiccant pre-Shoebox dryer that way) and it probably cycles for under a minute every 20-25 minutes or so.

My Shoebox is in the corner of my workshop, with an air hose hooked up and ready to go.  To use it, I simply open the quarter turn valves on the shop compressor and into the Shoebox, and turn on both compressors.  I hook up the tank and away it goes.  Nothing else to do - simple.  I have had my Shoebox for about 5 years and have put about 180 hours on it.  I rebuilt the cylinders (aka replaced the o-rings) in it at the 160 hour point just because I wanted to, but it has needed no maintenance. I can fill tanks or guns with it, but prefer to have the tanks full and use those to fill the guns.

[DrGunner]

UPDATE-

I just bought a tank.

As discussed in a prior post, I hit the classifieds to look at prices for used compressors. In my searching I came across this tank on American Airguns Classifieds and felt like it was too good to pass up.
     My original plan was to go for a 90 in.³ tank with fill regulator for $350 from a paintball outfit that would fill it for free. Instead, I bought this Air Venturi 45 ft.³ carbon fiber tank, for $250 with shipping. It was last inspected in 2018 so is good until 2023. There is another paintball outfit closer to me, a 10 minute drive with huge obstacle course that is open seven days a week and their tank fill fees run from $4- $10 per fill.

AoAs calculator says I should get 32 fills on my Daystate Regal.... so around 25-30 as there’s always some loss.

I think this will be a better way to start than a little tank that’s only good for 5-6 fills.











How did I do?

DrGunner

[Back_Roads]

 That will keep you shooting at a decent rate, and not too bulky or heavy to haul along for the refills, you did well 

[DrGunner]

Kevin,

The shop compressor rarely runs when we run the Shoebox - these are rated to fill at a rate that uses 10 cubic feet of air per hour (my older Max model does about 6.5 CF per hour).  Your beast of a compressor (with an 80 gallon tank, no less) might not even need to cycle at all in hour, if it were at full pressure at the start of the hour.  And even it it comes on, it will be for a very short cycle as yours sounds like it probably puts out over 10 cubic feet per minute . . . and you won't run for an hour to fill the small tank your are thinking of getting anyways.

I run mine with a 15 gallon 125psi Craftsman oiless compressor that is in my garage (rated at ~5 CFM at 90 PSI), and plumbed into my work shop.  I make a point of starting with it full and cooled down all the way (less moisture into my desiccant pre-Shoebox dryer that way) and it probably cycles for under a minute every 20-25 minutes or so.

My Shoebox is in the corner of my workshop, with an air hose hooked up and ready to go.  To use it, I simply open the quarter turn valves on the shop compressor and into the Shoebox, and turn on both compressors.  I hook up the tank and away it goes.  Nothing else to do - simple.  I have had my Shoebox for about 5 years and have put about 180 hours on it.  I rebuilt the cylinders (aka replaced the o-rings) in it at the 160 hour point just because I wanted to, but it has needed no maintenance. I can fill tanks or guns with it, but prefer to have the tanks full and use those to fill the guns.

Here’s my compressor-




So- Everyone- Given the fact that I have the Beast here, IF I FIND I WANT A COMPRESSOR,
would it make the most sense to buy a Shoebox now that I have a decent tank on the way?

To run the Shoebox, is it recommended to install water filtration on both the input and output of the Shoebox?

What would that setup cost- please break it down for me- cost of all components and estimate of replacement materials like filters or desiccant...?

DrGunner

[AlanMcD]

Kevin,

You will find many people that seem to want to dry the air both before and after the Shoebox, but you only need to do one if done right - once the water vapor is removed form the air, it does not get back in anywhere else as the system is closed. Personally, I think it best to dry before the air enters the Shoebox, as the Shoebox is on the slow side and having a dryer on the output side means that we have to pressurize that much more air volume on each fill - making it even slower.

I have attached a post I made on my set up, in which I was discussing verifying that the system worked via an inspection of my tank.  I probably spent under about $200 on the filters, regulators, and miscellaneous parts that you see in in it, but I did get a great deal on the Wilkerson air dryer from Zoro Tools at the time (I paid under $100 for it, with desiccant).

The one other thing I would add in your set up would be a decent hydrocarbon filter for another $50-75 bucks or so . . . .

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=139773.msg1407053#msg1407053

Also, here is a post all about water vapor in our compressed air:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=139845.msg1407834#msg1407834

[AlanMcD]

I forgot to say - great job on the tank!

That is exactly what I did - I got a used 45 CF tank, and had it filled for a few years.  As it approached its expiration, I bought the Shoebox to be able to continue to fill it, and after about another year or so I bought the Guppy tank as the perfect complement to a simple to use compressor.