We need a tapered pellet sizing die from NOE

[Kinetic45^]

I've been shooting airguns for a lot of years and the fit of the pellet to the barrel is one of the most important keys to accuracy.

I've bought every brand and weight of pellet to try in a rifle to find the 'perfect' one that it likes so many times.

A couple of years ago a friend aquired a tapered sizer from overseas, British I believe, and we found that we could take some fairly poor shooting pellets and get a lot better accuracy after the sizer trued up the skirt and sized the head and skirt to their best diameters. That made me think for years that there was a need of available pellet sizing dies for the American shooter and I've decided that the time has come to push for it.

Then I have been buying a lot of molds from Al at NOE and since he sells such good pellet molds and regular sizing dies I wondered if we could get him or some other manufacturer to make a tapered pellet sizer for this side of the pond.

How many of you would get one if they were truly available at a reasonable cost?  And not having to wait 6 months after ordering for delivery either?

I think we need a three different sizes, a.177, .22 and .25. I am sure there are experts here who could determine the angle of taper so the heads were the proper size and the skirts were just right larger.  I think this ratio is consistent so a tapered hole that you set the depth the pellet was pushed into then after the ram was retracted a tap on a rod would push the pellet down on the top of the nose and let it drop free.  If you set it deeper into the die the head of the pellet would be smaller but the skirt, sized down too would be just enough larger.  Want a larger head and skirt? Just set the depth a little shallower.

Maybe we could get a group buy or maybe we could have Al add it to his catalogue so it would be available as new people join our community and need the gear to increase performance.

Some pretty smart people here, how would YOU design a tapered pellet sizing die that would fit in a sizing press (a reloading press that a lot of us already have) like slug sizing dies do? Or a handheld one like the foreign one?

[Nvreloader]

Carl

Are not the NOE pellet size dies tapered/funnel shaped inside?
 
I have been using them to:
1. Straight uniform size, one on top of the other, (push thru), 1 press handle stroke
2. Size the head/shirt dia to whatever needed, (in the top and then back out the top), 1 press handle stroke,
3. Bump size the head dia larger to fit bbl size, if needed, (in the top/back out the top), 1 press handle stroke

All in 1 press, using NOE pellet sizing dies only, with the press I am using,
I only have to change a couple of parts, depending on what I want to do etc.

Tia,
Don

[Insanity]

Cost would be a major factor in my decision to buy one.

[rsterne]

I have emailed Al with this idea, and he said he will give me a call to discuss it.... My suggestion was to have a tapered die for each caliber, .177, .20, .25, .30 and .35 (maybe even .45) with a thin pushrod that shoves the pellet into the die.... The depth would have to be adjustable, so that you can get the correct nose and skirt diameters for your barrel.... and there would have to be something to push the pellet back out of the die.... The idea was to have the dies fit the existing NOE sizing die body, just the way their sizing bushings work....

I'll let you know what happens when I talk to Al....

Bob

[Kinetic45^]

Bob, could you post the sample drawing you showed me in our other discussion.
They'd probably like to see how it's longer to fit more barrels.

[rsterne]

This is the preliminary sketch I sent to Al....



The exact sizes are not yet determined.... but that drawing would be 0.60" long to produce the minimum and maximum diameters shown using a 1 degree taper.... The smallest .22 cal barrel I am aware of is the MMHF, which is 0.213" groove and likely about 0.209-0.210" land.... and the largest is the LW, which is 0.215" land and 0.221" groove.... although there may be something larger.... The NOE pellets are designed at 0.217" nose and 0.224" skirt, so this die should enable them to be customized for anything I am aware of.... The "Hunter" pellets are 0.200" long from the back of the nose to the back of the skirt (so would end up with a 0.007" difference between them)…. and the "Magnum Hunter" pellets are 0.260" from head to skirt (so would end up with a 0.009" difference).... That would mean that if I stay with the 1 degree per side taper, the head would get sized slightly before the skirt touched the die.... This is what happens using a taper, longer pellets end up with a greater difference between the head and skirt diameters.... so we may have to play with the taper angle to try and accommodate different pellet lengths....

It would of course be necessary to come up with a compromise, as it would only be practical to have one die per caliber....

Bob

[miksatx]

I just did a general drawing of a pellet sizer no numbers. The idea is to trap the pellet in a tapered base plate.  the x x x x's = base plate. the base plate drops into cylinder then the top part pushes down on the head of the pellet sizing just the head.

[rsterne]

Michael.... would not the taper to capture the skirt need to be different for every pellet?.... Additionally, the upper plate that sizes the head would have to be a specific size for each barrel, and changing it would require a new part, right?....

I'm not saying it won't work.... but basically must be custom made for every pellet and barrel....

Bob

[miksatx]

Michael.... would not the taper to capture the skirt need to be different for every pellet?.... Additionally, the upper plate that sizes the head would have to be a specific size for each barrel, and changing it would require a new part, right?....

I'm not saying it won't work.... but basically must be custom made for every pellet and barrel....

Bob

Hi Bob I understand what you're talking about. I only had in mind NOE cast pellets that was the reason for trapping the taper. So I could retain the size of the skirt and just size the head. My gun barrels shoot other mfged pellets just fine. Only the cast pellets are giving me problems.

[Franklink]

Very interested in .20 and .22 sizing dies.

Semi-related: I'd also be interested in a die (or series of dies) that could size a .22 pellet into a .20 like Motorhead was experimenting with last fall.

[Insanity]

If Mikstax design at least had the head portion tapered it would work the skirt ya not so much.

[miksatx]

I was trying to resize pellets earlier today and noticed I wasn't getting a uniform surface around the pellet head. Some had wider area and no sizing on one side lol. I thought maybe the push rod wasn't centering in the holder as it was being pushed through the die.

[rsterne]

It is possible that the pellet you are starting from is not perfectly round.... so when the die makes it round, the contact area is uneven....

Bob

[Back_Roads]

 I like alot  Something that is adjustable and works with the NOE sizer system one in every cal. for me 

[aluminumfetish]

A tool and die shop with EDM equipment can make you one those. EDM time is crazy expensive but that is a precise way to get the taper perfect. Progressive cutting dies are the bread and butter of these shops...  Sodick brand EDM (ones I am familiar with)  could hold tolerances of .0002" if programmed properly. . Awesome machines.

[Nvreloader]

I was trying to resize pellets earlier today and noticed I wasn't getting a uniform surface around the pellet head.
Some had wider area and no sizing on one side lol.
I thought maybe the push rod wasn't centering in the holder as it was being pushed through the die.

Micheal
Are you pushing on the skirt base, or head, when you size the pellet?

I made a tapered pin that pushes on the waist of the inside tapered portion of the pellet,
it has the same taper of the inside of the OEM Crosman pellets etc,
and I get the same results some times, it must be the way the pellet was cast/pressed etc.

Tia,
Don

[miksatx]

Micheal
Are you pushing on the skirt base, or head, when you size the pellet?

I made a tapered pin that pushes on the waist of the inside tapered portion of the pellet,
it has the same taper of the inside of the OEM Crosman pellets etc,
and I get the same results some times, it must be the way the pellet was cast/pressed etc.

Tia,
Don

Was pushing on skirt base Don.

[Nvreloader]

This is the preliminary sketch I sent to Al....


The exact sizes are not yet determined.... but that drawing would be 0.60" long to produce the minimum and maximum diameters shown using a 1 degree taper.... The smallest .22 cal barrel I am aware of is the MMHF, which is 0.213" groove and likely about 0.209-0.210" land.... and the largest is the LW, which is 0.215" land and 0.221" groove.... although there may be something larger.... The NOE pellets are designed at 0.217" nose and 0.224" skirt, so this die should enable them to be customized for anything I am aware of.... The "Hunter" pellets are 0.200" long from the back of the nose to the back of the skirt (so would end up with a 0.007" difference between them)…. and the "Magnum Hunter" pellets are 0.260" from head to skirt (so would end up with a 0.009" difference).... That would mean that if I stay with the 1 degree per side taper, the head would get sized slightly before the skirt touched the die.... This is what happens using a taper, longer pellets end up with a greater difference between the head and skirt diameters.... so we may have to play with the taper angle to try and accommodate different pellet lengths....

It would of course be necessary to come up with a compromise, as it would only be practical to have one die per caliber....Bob

Bob
Question on the sizing section of the die,

Shouldn't there be a short parallel section that is the size of the pellet head that is needed, (in the .207 section),
.215", .216", .217" etc, then the tapered section to match the angle of the pellet skirt etc.

I have been looking at taper pin reamers,#1 ,2, 3, they have 1/4" per foot taper,
but I think that taper is too steep/sharp etc.

I am figuring the tapers out that are needed,
but first I have to figure out the taper of the skirt on the NOE 217 pellets.

By any chance do you know this info?

Tia,
Don

[subscriber]

Shouldn't there be a short parallel section that is the size of the pellet head that is needed,

Don,

If you consider that the circumferential "land" created at the pellet head is very short, the taper in diameter over that short distance is negligible.

A slight taper at the pellet head diameter may even help it center in the bore more strongly.

Making the die with a straight section for the head fixes the head diameter.  The whole point is to be able to adjust the diameter "infinitely" over a narrow, but very specific range.  Making a few versions of the die with different taper angles should take care of the pellet length effect on head to skirt diameters.  A one degree per side taper really leaves the taper in diameter at the head so small that it would be hard to measure.

For instance, with an exaggerated .040" long "land" at the sized head diameter, using Bob's die dimensions, the lesser diameter of the tapering section would be 0.2156" when the larger diameter is .217".  That is only 0.0007" radial taper per side for this exaggerated example.  See image below.

[rsterne]

Most importantly, if we request a parallel section for the head diameter, you will need to order the specific size that works in YOUR barrel.... Do you know what that is?.... Is it 0.001" over the groove diameter, 0.001" over the land diameter (nearly bore riding), or somewhere in between?.... What are those diameters on your barrel?.... We already know that the groove diameter can be as small as 0.213" (MMHF) or as large as 0.221" (LW) and possibly even larger for some of the Korean guns (or others)….

I can pretty much guarantee you that NOE won't be interested in making 10 different sizes in every caliber.... nor would I ever ask them to.... The tiny amount of taper on the back of the nose, or on the back of the skirt, will be so short, and of so little taper, I can't imagine it will be of any consequence.... My goal is to come up with a die of the "best" taper, and of sufficient length, to accommodate all known airgun barrels.... while fitting into the NOE die body.... I don't think Al would be interested in anything else....

Then it will just be a matter of adjusting the depth you push the pellet to, to make it the diameter that shoots the best in your barrel....

BTW, tapered pin reamers, at 1/4" per foot, would have a taper of 0.021" per inch, or slightly over 0.004" in 0.200".... Therefore, they have less taper than my drawing.... That would mean that the head and skirt diameters would be closer to the same.... That might work just fine, but the bushing would have to be longer to cover the same range of bore diameters.... Here are the minor and major diameters for the sizes of interest....

#2.... 0.160-0.201".... .177 cal
#3.... 0.181-0.229".... .20 and .22 cal
#4.... 0.207-0.260".... .22 and .25 cal
#5.... 0.241-0.299".... .25 cal
#6.... 0.277-0.354".... .30 cal
#7.... 0.330-0.422".... .35 cal
#8.... 0.397-0.505".... .45 cal

This would give you the opportunity to try making a bushing yourself.... You would obviously use the portion of the tapered pin reamer you need for your bushing....

Bob