Best way to sight in a springer?

[UlteriorModem]

Holds, pellets, rests aside...

The main thing for me is to not 'chase' the zero around. Start close at like 10 yards then slowly work further out to where you want your zero point.

By chasing I mean if you think your close to zero, fire a few more shots to be sure they are landing in the same place. If all of a sudden one lands low and left or whatever dont start clicking the alt/az. Fire a few more to make sure you dident just pull the shot, over shoulder, or some other glitch.

[fderry]

Hector – Great input.  I have chrony’ed 4 different pellets so far and the Air Arms Diabolo Field, 8.4 gr had the lowest extreme spread (ES) so I was using them for site in.  Based on everybody’s input I will keep shooting until I get more pellets through the HW30s before final sight in.  I was surprised at the variation in ES of the Crosman Premier card board boxed pellets being the worst with the lowest velocity.   This pushed me into ordering a pellet head size checker in .177.  The Crosman pellets sorted into approximately equal piles of 4.53, 4.54 and 4.55 with an average weight of 8.1 gr (100 pellets checked).  The Air Arms Diabolo Field, 8.4 gr pellets were marked as 4.51 head size and 85% of them sorted at 4.51 with the remaining 15% sorted a 4.52 (100 checked).  I haven’t weighed the Air Arms Diabolo Field, 8.4 gr yet.  I have 4 different pellets available for my testing and will look for the best after break in.  Not sure that ES is the best indicator of accuracy.

I have been cleaning the barrel but not as often as you recommend.  Will be more attentive from now on.  Also had not thought of how closing the barrel could affect accuracy.  Thanks for the input!

[lefteyeshot]

I zero at 25 yards and zero air rifles just like I zeroed M16's in the Army. Like Hector said broke in gun and someone else don't chase the zero or make sure you're shooting good tight groups before you make any adjustments. I agree the guns needs breaking in but I'm still going to zero a new gun as best I can and re-zero later as needed.

If I put an old scope on a new or different gun I'll see if it gets on paper first and if not shoot at something on the ground and see the dirt splash to see how far it's off. If way off center the sights/scope. Crank the elevation and windage knob to the end then crank it to the other end and count the turns. I count half turns. I can do it faster that way. Say it's 12 -13 half turns from end to end turn back half that, 6-6 1/2 turns. That's close enough to center for me.

Shoot and if on paper adjust from there. Say it's a foot from POA a couple of half turns to get close. Sometimes you have to shoot a few pellets for the cross hairs to actually move or tap the turrets with a screw driver or something like that to help them move with a cheap scope.

Should be with in a few inches of POA by then and if you're shooting tight groups make click adjustments till you're on target. POA and POI become one.

An interesting thing I noticed in the Army helping soldiers get zeroed, if you had nice smooth dirt or sand next to the firing position. What ever pattern the empty cases landed in the sand next to their position the holes in the target would be the same pattern most of the time. It showed them how every shot had to be done the same everytime if you wanted the holes to be in the same place everytime. G.I. got have a little zen just like us.

I've heard people say their gun's POI shifted since last shot. When that happens to me I first assume it's me. I'm not shooting it the same as last time. So I shoot 20-30 pellets to get warmed up, try and get back in the zone and usually back on target with out re-zeroing. If not maybe I dropped the gun bag into the trunk to hard or laid a couple of heavy gun bags on top of it or closed the trunk lid a little to hard. Maybe it's colder or warmer or the winds blowing to hard or I miss read my notes and I'm shooting the wrong pellets. Fun stuff though. Later.

[Arch_E]

Thank all of you for your inputs!  I started with a R9 about 18 years ago and couldn’t master it so moved to a R7 and had more success with it but still I didn’t shoot as well as I wanted to.  Really liked the fit and comfort of the R7 though.  Moved to Crosman CO2 airguns and got hooked to the point of customizing one of them to bulk fill CO2 with LW barrel and custom stock.  After that I moved to powder burners and reloading (primarily shotguns for trap and 5 stand shooting).  About 4 years ago (after I retired) I got back into airguns with PCPs.  Started with a Marauder Pistol with carbine stock.  Moved to an Air Force Talon SS (a lot of customizing potential).  Then a FX Wildcat.  They were all good and accurate but lacked something.  I then fell in love with the AA/CZ T200.  After shooting the T200 I found that shooting 1 pellet at a time from a good fitting, accurate rifle and concentrating on my actual shooting form was more rewarding than throwing lead down range.  A few months ago I started reading the springer forum and remembered how much I liked the R7.  Ordered a HW30s Urban Pro from AoA and am in love with it.  There is something about shooting a springer that is rewarding.  I think it is having to put the time and effort into developing the skill to be good (and break habits developed with PCPs and powder burners).  If I get reasonably good with the HW30s I might even breakout the old R9 .20 cal and put the effort into becoming good with it!  Again, thanks for all the help because I need all the help I can get!

I appreciate hearing a testimony like this! Accuracy is as much my aim, as is enjoying the process.

best wishes,

Archie

[Yogi]

Consistancy and hold.  When I rest the very end of the fore end on the sand bag, I'm laser accurate.  When I rest the gun on the sand bag closer to the trigger guard, I'm not!

-Y

[HectorMedina]

Frank;

Thanks for your kind words.

There are two schools of pellet design:
Those that seal at the front riding surface (head lip)
And those that seal at the skirt, using the head of the pellet to "ride the lands".

Crosman uses the head sealing philosophy and uses a harder alloy to prevent pellets from being deformed BEFORE being shot.
JSB, most H&N's, RWS, QYS, and Eley, use the skirt seal technique. AA's are made by JSB.

That is why CP's are usually "big-headed", it is also why head sizing of the CP's is more useful than sorting or weighing, assuming your bore is tight. If your bore is a little oversized, then H&N, JSB and QYS can supply competition pellets (Exact, FTT's, and Streamlined respectively) of different head sizes.
But that will come down the road.

For the time, enjoy the trip!

Keep well and shoot straight!





HM

[Kerndtc]

Frank;

Thanks for your kind words.

There are two schools of pellet design:
Those that seal at the front riding surface (head lip)
And those that seal at the skirt, using the head of the pellet to "ride the lands".

Crosman uses the head sealing philosophy and uses a harder alloy to prevent pellets from being deformed BEFORE being shot.
JSB, most H&N's, RWS, QYS, and Eley, use the skirt seal technique. AA's are made by JSB.

That is why CP's are usually "big-headed", it is also why head sizing of the CP's is more useful than sorting or weighing, assuming your bore is tight. If your bore is a little oversized, then H&N, JSB and QYS can supply competition pellets (Exact, FTT's, and Streamlined respectively) of different head sizes.
But that will come down the road.

For the time, enjoy the trip!

Keep well and shoot straight!





HM

Hey Hector,

Quick question! When you stated one shot then one clean for 10 shots in the initial break in period. When you say clean, are you referring to pulling a patch, shooting a cleaning pellet or something else?

That seems a little excessive, but I couldn't hurt.

Other than that one item I'd agree with all the other break in procedures stated.

This is my MO

When I first get a rifle I do a deep barrel clean.

Consisting of pulling a wet patch usually with Ballistol to soak the grease/ oils inside the barrel then wait about 5 minutes. I'll pull 4 or 5 dry patches to remove the majority of the gunk or preservatives from manufacturing (or from a prior owner)

I will repeat this process until I get clean patches consistently, could be 20-30 total patches or more. Then I finish it up with a wet patch using brake cleaner, always being extremely cautious to only get it on the patch and not over soak it to where it gets squished out and hits any part of the gun other than the inside of the barrel.

This should remove the residual oil used for cleaning.

Then I'll take my Dewey rod and push a few pellets through the barrel and feel to see if it's consistent, and has a choke. Sometimes you'll be surprised by tight spots. Those can be solved by lapping later it the accuracy isn't good.

I will not sight in or test a rifle without a clean barrel, as far as I'm concerned if I cannot get accuracy out of a totally/ freshly cleaned barrel I don't want it. Waiting for a barrel to lead up to break in before I get accurate shots is not consistent enough for me.

With a new Springer or spring I will either Scragg it by fully compressing it and leaving it sit for 4-8 hours sometimes overnight, or cock the rifle and place it in a safe area for the same duration this will prolong the life of your spring and help set it initially so there are very little surprises velocity wise when the spring typically is broken in with use.

Then, I will sight in a spring gun. Most cases they are somewhat hold sensitive, so what I recommend is to sight the rifle in how you will be shooting it for a majority of your shots.

If you are planning on benching it, grab some sand bags and try multiple combinations to see where the rifle performs best. If you're going to use a bucket and sticks sight it in using that method.

I mainly shoot FT with spring guns and I only sight in my rifles in my seated FT position. That way I'm not surprised and have a different zero if I sight it in using a bench then transition into FT. Ultimately consistency is the most important thing. Don't be afraid to take notes and log what you are doing so you can have them handy, I kick myself in the butt sometimes for not doing that.

Hope you enjoy your new Springer!

Cam

[fderry]

Hector - Thanks for the head vs skirt explanation.  I have read that people are having great success with Crosman Premiers but couldn't understand based on my measurements with both head size and chrony.  I now have a better understanding.  Once I get more pellets through the rifle I will check accuracy with the various head size CPs to see which one is the most accurate.  I'm not sure I want to sort pellets for general plinking but for a better understanding of how different pellets work in my rifle I'll gladly do it. 

[nced]

Frank;

Thanks for your kind words.

There are two schools of pellet design:
Those that seal at the front riding surface (head lip)
And those that seal at the skirt, using the head of the pellet to "ride the lands".

Crosman uses the head sealing philosophy and uses a harder alloy to prevent pellets from being deformed BEFORE being shot.
JSB, most H&N's, RWS, QYS, and Eley, use the skirt seal technique. AA's are made by JSB.

That is why CP's are usually "big-headed", it is also why head sizing of the CP's is more useful than sorting or weighing, assuming your bore is tight. If your bore is a little oversized, then H&N, JSB and QYS can supply competition pellets (Exact, FTT's, and Streamlined respectively) of different head sizes.
But that will come down the road.

For the time, enjoy the trip!

Keep well and shoot straight!





HM

The "fly in the ointment" for "skirt sealing pellets" is the fact that unless the pellet heads are extremely consistent there is a large variation in pellet fit to the bore which gave ME more than acceptable amounts of fliers, especially with my older .177 Beeman R9 with a looser leade than my newer .177 HW95.

I'm of the opinion (right or wrong) that as long as the pellet head is large enough to be "swaged down" slightly when pressed into the leade slight .01-.02mm pellet head size variations aren't significant since the barrel leade will "size" the pellet head when loading. The large head die lot marked and dated Crosman Premiers were a very tight fit in the leade of both my newer .177 HW95 barrels yet the CPL was accurate from both barrels as well as the looser leade .177 Beeman R9. What I did for shooting CPLs from a tight leade HW bore was to make up a pellet head sizer that reduced a 4.55ish mm head so loading the pellet wasn't a "sore finger affair". Initially my sizer was lapped to put out a CPL with a 4.48ish mm head which worked well for the tight leade HW95 barrels but not so much for the looser leade R9 bore.

Initially the two consistently accurate pellet head sizes which were 4.48ish mm for the HW95 and unsized CPLs for the Beeman R9, however I did later lap the 4.48ish mm die sizing ring to 4.50ish mm which gave accurate CPLs from both the HW95 and Beeman R9, yet the loading pressure was tolerable with the tight leade HW95.

I stopped using supposedly 4.52mm JSB Exacts (sold the remaining 7 tins I had) due to the extreme pellet head variations and the fact that most pellet heads were undersized. That was a few years ago however I read that the Air Arms domes were more consistent than the JSB variety so recently I ordered 4 tins of 8.4 grain 4.52mm AA domes and was actually surprised to find that the head sizes were much more consistent than the 4.52mm labelled JSB Exacts. Matter of fact, most of the 4.52mm labelled AA dome pellet heads actually measured 4.51mm using my digital caliper and fit the HW95 leade very consistently. Matter of fact, I was able to resize a 4.52mm labelled AA dome using my 4.50ish pellet head sizer a bit. When I tried this with the 4.52mm labelled JSB Exact pellets most of those pellet heads simply dropped past the sizing ring with no sizing at all.

Anywhoo......I found that sized CPL pellet heads of 4.50ish mm were accurate from the looser leade Beeman R9 and weren't "sore loading finger tight" with the HW95. Instead of using two pellet head sizes like before all my pellet heads are sized using my 4.50ish mm homemade sizer.

[nced]

Hector - Thanks for the head vs skirt explanation.  I have read that people are having great success with Crosman Premiers but couldn't understand based on my measurements with both head size and chrony.  I now have a better understanding.  Once I get more pellets through the rifle I will check accuracy with the various head size CPs to see which one is the most accurate.  I'm not sure I want to sort pellets for general plinking but for a better understanding of how different pellets work in my rifle I'll gladly do it. 

"I will check accuracy with the various head size CPs to see which one is the most accurate"
I'm wondering if Crosman pellet head size variation matters as long as the rather large pellet head is "sized" when pushed into the leade (pellet head size isn't marked on the boxes) . I don't know about the 10.5 grain CP heavies but the CPLs I've measured at random looked like this..........

My experience over the years is that as long as the CPL fit the leade "properly tight" the poi would be good, however if I loade a "loose in the leade" CPL I'm pretty sure it would be a flier. LOL....over a decade ago the case of die #7 CPLs I bought had a extreme amount of undersized (and malformed) pellets so time was taken to pre-sort the peewees before adding to the pellet pouch. I haven't had pellet head size issues with cases of CPLs in recent years so it would be interesting to find if there is a "pellet head size accuracy variation", even if shot straight from the box. LOL....the recent cases of CPLs I've bought do have a few  (perhaps a half dozen) "rogue pellets" in the 1250 count boxlike and this is a recent example. I'm thinking that even if the head of the pellet on the left was "sized" when loading, it would probably be a flier.......

[HectorMedina]

Hey Hector,

Quick question! When you stated one shot then one clean for 10 shots in the initial break in period. When you say clean, are you referring to pulling a patch, shooting a cleaning pellet or something else?

That seems a little excessive, but I couldn't hurt.

Other than that one item I'd agree with all the other break in procedures stated.

This is my MO

When I first get a rifle I do a deep barrel clean.

Consisting of pulling a wet patch usually with Ballistol to soak the grease/ oils inside the barrel then wait about 5 minutes. I'll pull 4 or 5 dry patches to remove the majority of the gunk or preservatives from manufacturing (or from a prior owner)

I will repeat this process until I get clean patches consistently, could be 20-30 total patches or more. Then I finish it up with a wet patch using brake cleaner, always being extremely cautious to only get it on the patch and not over soak it to where it gets squished out and hits any part of the gun other than the inside of the barrel.

This should remove the residual oil used for cleaning.

Then I'll take my Dewey rod and push a few pellets through the barrel and feel to see if it's consistent, and has a choke. Sometimes you'll be surprised by tight spots. Those can be solved by lapping later it the accuracy isn't good.

I will not sight in or test a rifle without a clean barrel, as far as I'm concerned if I cannot get accuracy out of a totally/ freshly cleaned barrel I don't want it. Waiting for a barrel to lead up to break in before I get accurate shots is not consistent enough for me.

With a new Springer or spring I will either Scragg it by fully compressing it and leaving it sit for 4-8 hours sometimes overnight, or cock the rifle and place it in a safe area for the same duration this will prolong the life of your spring and help set it initially so there are very little surprises velocity wise when the spring typically is broken in with use.

Then, I will sight in a spring gun. Most cases they are somewhat hold sensitive, so what I recommend is to sight the rifle in how you will be shooting it for a majority of your shots.

If you are planning on benching it, grab some sand bags and try multiple combinations to see where the rifle performs best. If you're going to use a bucket and sticks sight it in using that method.

I mainly shoot FT with spring guns and I only sight in my rifles in my seated FT position. That way I'm not surprised and have a different zero if I sight it in using a bench then transition into FT. Ultimately consistency is the most important thing. Don't be afraid to take notes and log what you are doing so you can have them handy, I kick myself in the butt sometimes for not doing that.

Hope you enjoy your new Springer!

Cam

Hello Cameron! Welcome to the thread, your experience as one of our top World-Class shooters will be very valuable to all readers.

Since you do your own gunsmithing at a very high level, I would have no problems with your M.O.
For the general public, however, a GOOD barrel cleaning in most accuracy-minded springers (all fixed barrel affairs) is a no-go. To do it properly, you would need to disassemble the rifle.
In THIS case (or in any other break-barrel), it is easy to access the barrel from the breech, so, your advice is sound.
Personally,  I cannot recommend Ballistol in modern airguns, specially HW's because the tendency it has to get UNDER the stock finish and raise it, creating white blotches. BUT if the shooter in question is as careful as you are, then yes, it is a good "crud-cutter" specially for Chinese barrels that are lathered in shipping grease (the old Cosmoline of GI fame).
The cleaning down to bare steel with brake cleaner is another operation that requires a LOT of care.

As a professional gunsmith, I have absolutely no qualms disassembling a brand new gun and cleaning from the breech. I generally run a patch to see how "dirty" the bore is, I will then use Goo Gone for a few patches, then another dozen or so patches to make sure the gun is clean, and then use JB bore paste for a good "bare to metal" clean, lately I've been testing Corbin Bore cleaner and found it as good as JB, but easier to use.
Then, depending on if the user has stated he wants to use non-lead pellets or lead, I will test the barrel by running actual pellets through it. I pay attention to the "chamber", the initial "entry force" and  to any tight spots, which get marked with tape in the rod, to be transferred to the outside of the barrel with white china marker once the "tightness" is definitely and clearly determined (you would be surprised how many "tight spots" have disappeared after the JB phase).
Once this is done, then the work really starts, and yes, if you do all that, you can jump to the "10 shots/clean" phase.
BUT most users will not take the time, nor have the tools, chemicals and patience, to do this, they have a new toy and they want to use it!
That is why I recommend the 1/1 (shots to clean) for 10 (cycles) , then the 5/1 for another 10, then the 10/1 for another 10, then the 50/1 for another 2.
In reality, the user is having fun, shooting his gun, getting the crud out, and preparing the gun to shoot properly, without expectations, for 250 shots.

Then a good cleaning and he is ready to go and actually try to get some pellets tested and define what the gun will shoot for the rest of its life (or at least until something new appears and fits the purpose of the gun).

To clean fixed barrel guns, I use the Otis pull-through with circular 1 1/2" cleaning patches with three notches, each patch gives you 6 cleanings and I buy them by the thousand's box, LOL! I posted links and detailed instructions in the 430 L  Second blog entry: https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-diana-430l-second-entry.

Besides, what you comment on "setting the spring" while allowing it to rest cocked, can also be accomplished by shooting a little and then resting the gun, then shooting a little and then resting the gun.

So, yes, it may sound excessive to a pro/advanced amateur like yourself, but there is a bit of "human engineering" there.

;-)

While I believe in the "1 fouling shot barrel" for HP CF's; RF's and Airguns are different. The JB phase I described is only there to make the barrel receptive to whatever lube I will be using later in the pellets, if you do not see the consistency in waiting for a barrel to season/lead up to be accurate, I do not want to spend the time cleaning every Match and then taking 20 shots to season the barrel again;  and my tests have shown that lubed pellets will almost always shoot better than non-lubed pellets (I have found ONLY ONE EXCEPTION in over hundreds guns). We're dealing with 11-20 ft-lbs here, not 3,500 ft-lbs energy levels, our projectiles are pure or almost pure lead, no jacket; and we don't use any corrosive components, so, I prefer to simplify my life.

I've also seen barrels that have been rendered mirror-like-mercury-surface smooth by too much polishing, and have found that it is counterproductive. A barrel can lead up badly either because it is too rough, or because it is too smooth. One rips the lead into tiny strips that then adhere to the next shot, the other gets the lead "smeared" and the shards/flakes will also adhere to the next shot. Either way these barrels need a cleaning after every 50 to 100 shots. That, IMHO, is a PIA.

What you comment about sighting-in the same way you are going to shoot is absolutely essential at a high-competition level; for most people, they only want "minute of soda can at 35 yards"  and the differences will be small in a sedate rifle like the small framed HW's. If you are talking about more than 10 ft-lbs, then yes, by all means, the position is extremely important.

Coming back to springs: I only install pre-set springs, whether they are Maccari's or Titan's. Working on 3 guns at a time, I couldn't keep track of which gun is in which state and at what hour it was put to the setting stage. For $1 each spring (Maccari) it's an easy-peasy solution for me.
Modern steels would take quite a lot more time to truly set than 4 hours.
Perhaps I need to write a blog entry about springs . . . . hmmmm

Again, welcome to the thread and see you in England!








HM

[HectorMedina]

The "fly in the ointment" for "skirt sealing pellets" is the fact that unless the pellet heads are extremely consistent there is a large variation in pellet fit to the bore which gave ME more than acceptable amounts of fliers, especially with my older .177 Beeman R9 with a looser leade than my newer .177 HW95.

I'm of the opinion (right or wrong) that as long as the pellet head is large enough to be "swaged down" slightly when pressed into the leade slight .01-.02mm pellet head size variations aren't significant since the barrel leade will "size" the pellet head when loading. The large head die lot marked and dated Crosman Premiers were a very tight fit in the leade of both my newer .177 HW95 barrels yet the CPL was accurate from both barrels as well as the looser leade .177 Beeman R9. What I did for shooting CPLs from a tight leade HW bore was to make up a pellet head sizer that reduced a 4.55ish mm head so loading the pellet wasn't a "sore finger affair". Initially my sizer was lapped to put out a CPL with a 4.48ish mm head which worked well for the tight leade HW95 barrels but not so much for the looser leade R9 bore.

Initially the two consistently accurate pellet head sizes which were 4.48ish mm for the HW95 and unsized CPLs for the Beeman R9, however I did later lap the 4.48ish mm die sizing ring to 4.50ish mm which gave accurate CPLs from both the HW95 and Beeman R9, yet the loading pressure was tolerable with the tight leade HW95.

I stopped using supposedly 4.52mm JSB Exacts (sold the remaining 7 tins I had) due to the extreme pellet head variations and the fact that most pellet heads were undersized. That was a few years ago however I read that the Air Arms domes were more consistent than the JSB variety so recently I ordered 4 tins of 8.4 grain 4.52mm AA domes and was actually surprised to find that the head sizes were much more consistent than the 4.52mm labelled JSB Exacts. Matter of fact, most of the 4.52mm labelled AA dome pellet heads actually measured 4.51mm using my digital caliper and fit the HW95 leade very consistently. Matter of fact, I was able to resize a 4.52mm labelled AA dome using my 4.50ish pellet head sizer a bit. When I tried this with the 4.52mm labelled JSB Exact pellets most of those pellet heads simply dropped past the sizing ring with no sizing at all.

Anywhoo......I found that sized CPL pellet heads of 4.50ish mm were accurate from the looser leade Beeman R9 and weren't "sore loading finger tight" with the HW95. Instead of using two pellet head sizes like before all my pellet heads are sized using my 4.50ish mm homemade sizer.

Ed,

As you comment, it all depends on the barrel.

Mostly on how the bore and choke align (it is not always a perfect match).

In GENERAL, and this not only applies to pellets and airguns but to ALL lead shooting devices: allowing the barrel to swage down the projectile more than 0.001" (0.02 mm's) is almost surely, a recipe for bad accuracy.

CP's are different in the sense that they are "hard" as compared to standard pellets, and the usage of Sb, almost surely will make the barrel "lead intolerant".
So, I am not surprised by your experiences, it all jives with what we know.

JSB had a stage of explosive growth a few years back that led to inconsistent head sizes. As far as my experience goes, current lots are much better, BUT this will not show too clearly in a barrel that has been shooting CP's consistently over many years.
The fine point is that JSB pellets are more "efficient" meaning they take less energy away from the final KE yield. Again, a result of their hardness.

While HW barrels may be on the "tight side", DIANA (specially currently made)  barrels are on the "loose side", and so sometimes getting 4.53 pellets is a good advise.

Again, something that for this user, as I wrote, is "down the road" to experiment and test.

Keep well and shoot straight!





HM

[HectorMedina]

Hector - Thanks for the head vs skirt explanation.  I have read that people are having great success with Crosman Premiers but couldn't understand based on my measurements with both head size and chrony.  I now have a better understanding.  Once I get more pellets through the rifle I will check accuracy with the various head size CPs to see which one is the most accurate.  I'm not sure I want to sort pellets for general plinking but for a better understanding of how different pellets work in my rifle I'll gladly do it.

Frank

I am not sure you CAN get different head sizes in the CP's, they are all "the same". You CAN get different/NOMINAL head sizes in JSB/AA, H&N, and QYS.
Perhaps a word here is important:
JSB does not MEASURE THE HEADS, the batches get labelled by TESTING in gauged barrels. SO a 4.53 head size JSB may NOT measure 4.53, the 4.53 means that the batch shot well from a 4.53 barrel.
H&N does measure head size and so, the 4.52 from H&N are usually equivalent to the JSB 4.53.
Again, only your barrel can tell you what it likes.

Keep well and shoot straight!





HM

[fwbsport]

I'm holding off on buying pellets even though running out of H&N Field Target Trophy 8.64 grs.
I have thousands of heavy CPS (10.5 gr) in cardboard boxes dating back 2012 from DIE I, and though I've noticed "looser" pellets here and there they never stray the mark.

In my 35 E I have not started shooting them, but I will since to me the laws of physics say slower velocity and more mass is easier on a spring--it moves slower to expand--and after this happens we'll see if my 35E stays up to it's impeccable reputation.

My findings over time since 1969 with break barrels is loose pellets can be just as accurate as tight ones in an old BSF Springer I had.  Nothing's changed.

And I never cleaned a pellet rifle in my entire life to date with a rod or brass/bronze brush/patch/string/you-name-your-device!

Am I dissatisfied with the performance of ANY air rifle I owned?  Not at all.  Every air rifle I ran through left my hands was accurate--Break Barrel, PCP, and C02--so why bother?  Leading? Shoot a Crow Magnum or Wadcutter to "clean" it out!

If there is a stray pellet showing up now and then while shooting I mark it and where it went while continuing to shoot off hand; and sure enough the next pellet that strays goes to THE SAME PLACE to the right about an inch at 30 yards!  This happens with my HW35 E using OPEN SIGHTS.

Is it me in my standing position causing it?  I haven't decided quite yet but with an HW80 both CP Domes 10.5 gr and H&N Field Target Trophy 8.64 gr WITH H&N Crow Magnum (about 8 grains) pellets go to the same point of impact and they DO NOT STRAY!  Is it the HW 80 AKA R1?  The other rifle I tried this out on was my FWB Sport--it too shoots all pellets without straying!

I already know the 35E never makes a mistake so either it's the pellet or the shooter.

Having the head or the skirt meet the grooves is also something Crossman addressed showing the head is ahead of the skirt in consistency.  The head of a Crow Magnum Pellet is very tight fitting in my HW80 .177, never a loose one encountered.

I know how EASY it is to damage a skirt compared to a head of a pellet, another reason to reconsider using pellets depending upon their skirts for a fling.

[fderry]

Hector, nced, and Cameron,
Excellent information and advice – keep it coming!   

Cleaning – in my case I have been using Ballistol and dry patches with a Patch Worm pull through kit.  Based on Hector’s comment I may go to Goo Gone.  Didn’t realize Ballistol could have an adverse effect on the finish of an airgun.  Brake fluid scares me because of how caustic it can be on other surfaces of the airgun.  My biggest concern on cleaning the barrel is the barrel seal, so I have only used slightly dampened patches so that I didn’t have excess fluid seeping on the seal.  I have used JB bore paste on both powder burners and my TalonSS .22 barrel.  Used on the TalonSS because I could remove the barrel from the PCP and I had proper brushes and rod in .22 cal.  Will JB bore paste work with pull through patches?

Spring – At my level of shooting I will let the spring take a set based on normal use.  If I was going to compete in FT I would be looking into putting a set on the spring.  Unfortunately there isn’t any FT meets in Southern Colorado for me visit to see if I would enjoy it.  Plus I’m getting older and don’t get around as well as I did when I was younger.  Not sure I’m up for all the walking!  I do live on 5 acres and am setting up FT like targets at various distances for my enjoyment!

Pellets – I am grateful for all the information on pellets.  You have provided more information in one thread than I have been able to find in multiple internet searches!  I am curious how to swage a pellet through a barrel without mangling the skirt?  I don’t have a cleaning rod in .177 but can buy one.  Would an appropriate sized wood dowel be as effective?

Again, thank you for all the information!
Frank

[lizzie]

I start at 10 yds with open sights just to get an idea how accurate the gun is generally.
I then.put a scope on and sight it (again) at 10 yards, then out to 25 yds,, which is my most common shooting range.

[fderry]

Lizzie
I have determined that bench rest isn't the best way for me to sight in my springer.  Based on all the input, I am using a modified "bucket and sticks" method.  I can't get a comfortable/natural hold on the bench.  Having a consistent hold seems better with a springer than the extreme stability of a bench with various aids.  With shooting sticks I can get a good repeatable cheek/chin weld while in a normal shooting posture either sitting or standing.  I do have the scope set close at 25 yards now and will reset using your advice when I get the HW30s broken in and move back to the fixed 4x scope.

I'm curious if your comment was a subtle prod to get us back on topic?  I hope not because all the information being provided is invaluable in my opinion.
Thanks,
Frank

[fderry]

nced
I have read and seen YouTube videos talking about pellet head resizing but until this discussion and my measurements of the Crosman Premiers didn’t fully understand the value.  Looks like a T.R.Robb Adjustable Pellet Sizer may be in my future!  Pellet resizing would be faster and easier than measuring head size.  The CPs are very consistent in weight but head size has a large variance.
Thanks,
Frank

[Stinger177]

I don’t have a cleaning rod in .177 but can buy one.  Would an appropriate sized wood dowel be as effective?

Frank - I think you'd have a hard time attaching the cloth to a dowel.

If you have Amazon Prime you can have these tomorrow.




abjwUZIt_XryP5bADAzg%2C%2C&keywords=air+gun+cleaning+patches&qid=1561751762&refinements=p_90%3A8308921011&rnid=8308919011&s=sporting-goods&sr=1-1

The Walmart's up here have the cleaning kit in stock. I checked CoSpgs stores and they do not.


Dennis

[lefteyeshot]

I shoot off a bench but not with a lot of aids. Four bricks, two on the bottom long way, two on top cross way with a shot bag on top, the fore stock on the bag, elbows on the table and my non firing hand under the butt stock with most guns. Some I lay my hand next to the stock on the bag with my fore finger against the fore stock and my thumb under the stock behind the bag to keep the gun from moving sideway. Instead of an "L" shaped table I turn my table at an angle so I can place my firing side elbow on the table comfortably.