D48 with cocking lever stuck open---Help!

[phranch]

This is 3rd time I've torn this gun down.  Replaced spring with a maccari.  Forgot to reinstall the piston seal and in disassembly somehow broke the lug that goes into the side of the compression chamber, which connects to the cocking lever pull rod!  Ordered a new one and rather than wait for it to come back in stock, I decided to braze the old lug (cracked thru the pin hole and part way into it's base).  Got it put back together no problem, no parts left over!  Re-adjusted the pull rod and pulled the cocking lever back all the way with care, no excess or jerking force.  Pressed the bear trap release and nothing happened.  Tried several approaches; the compression chamber-piston is NOT HELD back by the bear trap which operates normally.  When I pull the cocking lever I can see the safety lever moving a little.  I used slave pins to get the spring out and didn't think I had dropped the safety spring, or whatever it is that happens when the pin replacement isn't done correctly.  The safety flips up and down and has no effect on release of the trigger.  The rifle is cocked and is not in battery.  Can anyone help me out of what is probably some stupid action?  Snake bit!!!   

Denzil

[Artie]

Did you try holding the cocking lever back as if cocking the gun (holding on strongly to prevent fly back) and squeezing the trigger? It may release the piston. Be careful and don't let go of the cocking lever to prevent injury should the piston let's loose.

[Madd Hatter]

Are you sure that the bear trap is all of the way down?

[Roadworthy]

It sounds as though the gun may not have actually cocked and the bear trap is holding the compression tube which is still under spring pressure.  If you pull the cocking lever, while holding tension on it you may be able to release the beartrap latch then ease the cocking lever back to battery.  You may be becoming coil bound and unable to latch the piston with the sear.

[Yogi]

Send it to a pro.   Sounds like it is above your pay grade.
3 strikes and you are out.  If you don't get it this time send it to Motorhead, John in PA, or David Slade in Tennessee.
My $0.02,

-Y

[phranch]

And the winners are--Artie and Roadworthy!!

I did what you suggested and it returned to battery!  However, I'm still in the woods as it will not fire; the trigger won't release regardless of the safety position.  Hope you have more ideas on this new issue!  Very appreciative of your diagnostic skills and thanks to all for your efforts.   

Denzil

[Roadworthy]

Insufficient data.  Is the gun actually cocked or did you just release spring tension for the return to battery?  Is the sear holding the spring or is the gun uncocked?  There is a tiny spring within the trigger group which works on the safety and the lever detent.  Does this gun have the T06 trigger?  Sometimes it is not shaped correctly from the factory.  If it's out of place (easy to do) it can cause difficulty.  It can cause the trigger to be blocked hence preventing the gun from firing.

[Artie]

Sorry for late response, been traveling across country and comm's is sketchy for me but it sounds like an improper reassembly. Bottom line, research proper teardown - reassembly, study diagrams, take pictures, and do it again (disassemble). We aren't there for hands on troubleshooting unfortunately but you could post pictures and possibly reveal a sound diagnosis.

[phranch]

Much rain has flooded my shop floor--drain is plugged at end of line and my backhoe has 2 broken hyd lines so I can't dig it out.  Can't spend the time on the gun  I'd like to just right now.  I did tear it back down and this time took the trigger assembly completely apart and nothing appeared out of place.  This was helped greatly by this post I found in searching--https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/yellow/diana-48-52-t01-trigger-disassembly-assembly-pictu-t141998.html  I can't credit it enough! Put it back together still won't fire.  Got to increase my understanding of just how the trigger group works as I'm sure the problem is there.  If I knew what to take a picture of to post, I'd do it, but if I knew that, my problem would be solved!! 

Thanks Yogi! It's possible your reply was more judgemental than helpful.  My lack of knowledge and experience is painfully apparent and I readily admit I must continue my studies in this area; that is the only solution. I don't see how sending it to a pro would help me learn and increase my pay grade!  Regardless, I appreciate your interest and who knows, sending it off may be exactly what I wind up doing!   But I don't give up easily and certainly not at this early date!

[Yogi]

Denzil,

Life is to short to sweat the small stuff.  You were/are stressed out over a mechanical instrument that was not behaving as you thought it should.
You had already given it a go or two and were not getting the results that you wanted.  Some people here like to tinker more than they do shoot.  I like to tinker and LOVE to shoot.
Sorry if I perturbed you off.

May I suggest that you PM Hector Medina here at GTA.  He is Mr. Diana, and a great guy.  He just got back from vacation and is a very helpful fellow.
Good luck with all the other stressful situations that life has thrown at you lately.

-Y

[HectorMedina]

Denzil;

Sorry about your water problems, we also came home from holidays to a pin-hole leak that, because the Home Warranty company refused to either let us deal with it or get someone to actually respond in a timely manner, ended up damaging a lot more than it should.
Of course, the Home Warranty company now says all the damage is "incidental" and refuses to accept responsibility. It's ridiculous, but I am trying not to let that stress me out. Though idiots like Long and Foster can easily get me out of whack . . . Anyway.

WHEN you have the time you need to FIRST try the trigger block with your piston OUTSIDE the gun and WITHOUT the spring.

T-01 triggers CAN be assembled "cocked" (with the three ball sear in the rear position), and that creates the situation that the gun cannot be cocked AGAIN (BTW, same thing is possible with the T-06).

IF that is the situation, then you need to de-cock the trigger and then try to get the piston's stem to cock the trigger block. If you can do it, then the trigger should also function inside the gun.

Start with that and, if you can, take pictures.

Take care, keep well and shoot straight!






HM

[phranch]

Yogi- No problem, and no harm, no foul.

Hector-Your warranty situation is much worse than my gun problems!  Hope you get it remedied and damage repaired soon.  I have now taken the trigger block apart again and re-assembled again S-L-O-W-L-Y.  I repeatedly used the piston's stem to cock the trigger block and then 'fire' it normally with the trigger out of the gun.  This indicates to me that the block is assembled correctly but it still will not fire mounted in the stock!

Further, the release lever will not release the compression chamber/piston whether mounted n the stock or not.  With the stock off, I have to use a screwdriver to force release the bear trap lever.


With the stock on, the chamber/piston can be released only by holding the cocking lever while depressing the trigger.  I suspect that this also de-cocks the gun.  The new Maccari spring is harder to compress than the original but that shouldn't account for the release difficulty!  The lug that connects the cocking lever to the compression chamber broke and I brazed it back together which has now failed again (I ordered one from PA but it is back-ordered to the middle of July.  I'll make another one from scratch.) 

I understand the function of the trigger block pretty well now after 6 or 7 tear-downs!  Why it will cock and fire by manually pressing the piston shaft into the block but not when assembled with the spring back into the gun has me stumped!  The only difference I can see is that the spring exerts MUCH more pressure and is not released, compared to my doing it by hand which IS released. Really hoping that there are more ideas out there and appreciate your help greatly!

One other thing--if I pull the cocking lever ALL the way back, the chamber/piston will lock but is NOT being held by the bear trap.  The bear trap lever freely moves in and out.  I have to depress the trigger while pulling back the cocking lever and easing it down.  As mentioned above, the bear trap lever CANNOT be released by pressing it down when in the stock.

[Madd Hatter]

Do you still have the top hat on the spring? When I installed a Vortec kit in mine I couldn't cock it due to coil bind. As soon as I removed the top hat it worked just fine. I have the To1 trigger also. Vortec needs to caution people they can't use the top hat in a To1 M48.

[Stinger177]

I was thinking coil bind as well. Not enough to prevent cocking and engagement, but just enough to put pressure on the system to prevent release. Using the cocking lever perhaps puts just enough extra pressure on the coils to allow the release. ?

[Roadworthy]

I'll concur with the suggestion of being coil bound as a possibility.  That could permit the cocking lever to engage the anti beartrap mechanism but not allow the piston to go far enough for the rod to latch with the sear.  The question is then does the gun fully cock?  In case you're unaware, being coil bound is the point at which all coils are touching and the spring can compress no further.  It is also possible the new spring guide is longer than the old one and making contact with the piston before the gun actually cocks.  Parts for the gun should be available from Umarex USA or Chambers Airgun Spares. 

[phranch]

Robert-

Yes, I still have the top hat on the Maccari spring.

Dennis-
Coil bound seems to be the most common diagnosis!

Thomas-
Man, that description of coil bound really makes sense.  But, does it fully cock is a really good question.  I don't know and shamefully can't figure out how to tell if it is!  As to the spring guide being longer than the old one, I can check that out by tearing the gun down again.  I could then shorten it by a comparable amount as it is some sort of polymer.  Its length shouldn't be critical as long as it doesn't prevent the spring from fully compressing--and is close to the length of the old one.  OK, I'll do that and report back.  PS--The lug that attaches to the front of the compression chamber and connects to the cocking lever broke.  I brazed it back together but it didn't hold--high inertia!  Ordered replacement from PA;  out of stock to at least mid-July so I'll just make one.

Thanks so much to everyone for sticking with me on this issue. 

DK

[Hammarhead]

Found this on another site: Important last minute info. from J. Maccari:
On some RWS sidelever guns the addition of a washer will prevent the trigger to engage. For this reason, the GSI kit does not include a washer. Maccari is already preparing another kit with a 1 coil shorter spring which does include a washer. Take a look at his site.

http://www.eddiecolwell.tzo.com/RWS-54.htm

[Madd Hatter]

Robert-

Yes, I still have the top hat on the Maccari spring.

Dennis-
Coil bound seems to be the most common diagnosis!

Thomas-
Man, that description of coil bound really makes sense.  But, does it fully cock is a really good question.  I don't know and shamefully can't figure out how to tell if it is!  As to the spring guide being longer than the old one, I can check that out by tearing the gun down again.  I could then shorten it by a comparable amount as it is some sort of polymer.  Its length shouldn't be critical as long as it doesn't prevent the spring from fully compressing--and is close to the length of the old one.  OK, I'll do that and report back.  PS--The lug that attaches to the front of the compression chamber and connects to the cocking lever broke.  I brazed it back together but it didn't hold--high inertia!  Ordered replacement from PA;  out of stock to at least mid-July so I'll just make one.

Thanks so much to everyone for sticking with me on this issue. 

DK

The JM kit is specific for the different M48 triggers where the Vortec is not. If using the Vortec high power kit in the TO! trigger model 48 you cannot use the top hat or it will coil bind. I went thru this just a few months ago and with Thomas's help got mine shooting very good. I'm getting the high 16 Ft/Lb with H&N 10.65g barracudas.

[HectorMedina]

Denzil

If you need to use a screwdriver to unlock the anti-beartrap, it is clearly coil-bound. Another indication is that you already broke one of the coking linkages.

Remove ALL washers and top-hats, and then try again.

HTH




HM

[phranch]

Apologies to all for delayed reply!  Have talked with Roadworthy, and Hector indirectly, pursuing the coil bound idea.  I removed the top hat from the spring--still won't fire.  Put the old spring back in--still won't fire.  Still have to use a screwdriver to disengage the bear trap.  Currently soaking the piston in MEK (removed the seal) to try and find out if there is something stuck in the piston.  I brazed that broken cocking linkage again; so far is holding but it has not been tested by the full closing force of the bolt.  Will contact Maccari on the remote possibility that the wrong spring was shipped.  Time to pause!