spring piston outdated??

[Muddydogz]

There's a reason spring guns have stood the test of time, easy to work on and they just flat out work.

[UlteriorModem]

There's a reason spring guns have stood the test of time, easy to work on and they just flat out work.

Same could be said for gas springs. Easy to work on, if it fails they don't cost much to replace.

[mata777]

I’ll take a tuned spring piston gun over a gas piston version any day.

Why in the long run it is just two different ways to accomplish the same task.

Yes......both a gas and coil spring accomplish the same task, however the shot cycle is different. The gas ram shot cycle is harsher than a coil spring shot cycle with a similar weight gun shooting at similar velocities and it takes more cocking effort vs the coil spring. Also, the gas ram shot cycle is a known "scope buster".

Decades ago I shot a stock .25 cal Beeman Kodiac (rebadged Webley Patriot springer) the put out a measured 30fpe with Diana Domes and I had no problem cocking the gun for a half dozen shots. Then I had the opportunity to shoot a .20 cal Beeman Crow Magnum (rebadged Theoben Eliminator rated at 25fpe and 28fpe in .25 cal) and it was a GUT BUSTER to cock even though it was putting out less fpe. After shooting 3 shots my "cocking arm" was shot and I decided that if I were given an Eliminator I'd simply sell it.

Couldn't agree more Ed. My crosman titan gp killed two scopes (both were replace under warranty), cocking effort and shot cycle harshness is quite a bit more than even my spring tuned guns that shoot in the 17-19 fpe range. The gas ram in the titan lost power at less than 2k pellets down the pipe, it's now doing 10.4 fpe. The titan has an accurate barrel so I'm going to replace the guts with a maccari spring and a fitted guide. I've shot a friend's hw90 (gas rammed), it's a nice hunter but I wouldn't want to plink with it all evening. So far I've replaced exactly zero maccari springs in my tuned guns, some are north of 15k pellets down the pipe.

[Franklink]

My Beeman RX2 is easier to shoot accurately than my laminate HW77K was. The 77k had Macarri internals and about every variation of tune I could think to try. At the end it even had a short stroke piston nose from Tinbum in England. The short stroke helped the most but this RX2 is still easier to shoot accurately.

I personally like the quick shot cycle of the gas ram. It doesn't seem as fussy as a coil wound springer about how it is held. Is it a nicer shooting experience than my 9ish foot pound HW50S with barrel weight? No. But does it shoot much flatter and resist the wind better and still put the pellets where I want them to go? Yes.

I'm nowhere near being a prepper, but I see the shtf and bug out scenarios come up every once in a while on the forums. Between HWs, FWBs, Crosmans, heck, even my USFT, the RX2 is the gun I would want for the no more compressed air, no more electricity, no more grocery store, no more world as we know it scenario. The RX2 gas ram is not my favorite gun, but it does have a place in my stable cuz it's different than the rest of them.

(And by different, I mean able to generate 19fpe without any auxiliary equipment and deliver that energy right where I want it to go-that, in and of itself, is cool)

[fwbsport]

I’ll take a tuned spring piston gun over a gas piston version any day.

Why in the long run it is just two different ways to accomplish the same task.

Yes......both a gas and coil spring accomplish the same task, however the shot cycle is different. The gas ram shot cycle is harsher than a coil spring shot cycle with a similar weight gun shooting at similar velocities and it takes more cocking effort vs the coil spring. Also, the gas ram shot cycle is a known "scope buster".

Decades ago I shot a stock .25 cal Beeman Kodiac (rebadged Webley Patriot springer) the put out a measured 30fpe with Diana Domes and I had no problem cocking the gun for a half dozen shots. Then I had the opportunity to shoot a .20 cal Beeman Crow Magnum (rebadged Theoben Eliminator rated at 25fpe and 28fpe in .25 cal) and it was a GUT BUSTER to cock even though it was putting out less fpe. After shooting 3 shots my "cocking arm" was shot and I decided that if I were given an Eliminator I'd simply sell it.

Come over and shoot my Elim! 

The Eliminator was Theoben's invention and Beeman renamed them Crow Magnums with a different stock--so it's the other way around,

Also, I had Eliminators and Crow Magnums in .20, .22, and .25 TWO times before keeping the .25.

That .25 has been everywhere any weather anytime without ever killing a scope.  It has DAMPA mounts.

Once exposed to an Eliminator from England from the original days before others hopped on the "nitro piston" or other named gas rams things went cheap with less personal labor.

[nced]

I’ll take a tuned spring piston gun over a gas piston version any day.

Why in the long run it is just two different ways to accomplish the same task.

Yes......both a gas and coil spring accomplish the same task, however the shot cycle is different. The gas ram shot cycle is harsher than a coil spring shot cycle with a similar weight gun shooting at similar velocities and it takes more cocking effort vs the coil spring. Also, the gas ram shot cycle is a known "scope buster".

Decades ago I shot a stock .25 cal Beeman Kodiac (rebadged Webley Patriot springer) the put out a measured 30fpe with Diana Domes and I had no problem cocking the gun for a half dozen shots. Then I had the opportunity to shoot a .20 cal Beeman Crow Magnum (rebadged Theoben Eliminator rated at 25fpe and 28fpe in .25 cal) and it was a GUT BUSTER to cock even though it was putting out less fpe. After shooting 3 shots my "cocking arm" was shot and I decided that if I were given an Eliminator I'd simply sell it.

Come over and shoot my Elim! 

The Eliminator was Theoben's invention and Beeman renamed them Crow Magnums with a different stock--so it's the other way around,

Also, I had Eliminators and Crow Magnums in .20, .22, and .25 TWO times before keeping the .25.

That .25 has been everywhere any weather anytime without ever killing a scope.  It has DAMPA mounts.

Once exposed to an Eliminator from England from the original days before others hopped on the "nitro piston" or other named gas rams things went cheap with less personal labor.

"I had Eliminators and Crow Magnums in .20, .22, and .25 TWO times before keeping the .25."
You sir have "deep pockets" and a lot of tolerance for large, heavy, hard cocking piston guns to buy (I assume) so many Eliminators.
 
"That .25 has been everywhere any weather anytime without ever killing a scope. It has DAMPA mounts."
Hummmm.......Why did you feel the need of a $100 rubber lined scope mount to save your scopes from the recoil of a heavy 11 pound (with scope and mount) rammer?

[oldnamvet]

What I envisioned as a fairly simple questions has enlightened me with the many points and opinions.  Looks like there are good points to both springers and rammers.  Having had only pumpers, springers, and PCP it looks like I will have to invest in a gas ram rifle to broaden my experiences.  Maybe a 30 cal one if they make them. I believe the Hatsan is a springer?

[Frank in Fairfield]

Tom,
You are correct.
The springers are out of date and virtually worthless.
Everyone should box them up and send them immediately to me, here in JellyBelly land.
I will keep the worthless things hidden away and away from public view.
I might even re-imburse you for shipping.

[EMrider]

I’ll take a tuned spring piston gun over a gas piston version any day. 

My thoughts exactly. 

I love springers and would be glad to see someone actually build a better mousetrap.  But IMHO, the claimed benefits of a gas ram are just marketing hype.  Steel springs still do the job better IMHO.

R

[SteveP-52]

What I envisioned as a fairly simple questions has enlightened me with the many points and opinions.  Looks like there are good points to both springers and rammers.  Having had only pumpers, springers, and PCP it looks like I will have to invest in a gas ram rifle to broaden my experiences.  Maybe a 30 cal one if they make them. I believe the Hatsan is a springer?

They're Vortex gas rammed.

Turkish Walnut stock:
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/hatsan-135-qe-vortex-air-rifle?m=3976

Synthetic stock:
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/hatsan-mod-130s-vortex-qe-breakbarrel-air-rifle?m=4586

I have more than a few of both springers and gas rams and both have their plus and minus sides but in the end, if those gas rams go bad, they're also very easily and less expensively converted to springers.

[Airnut]

Springer verses gas ram in my opinion it doesn't make much difference one way or the other!
Is the glass half full or half empty?
Shore there are suttle differences but for the average shooter It doesn't Amount to a hill of beans. As one gentleman stated. Weather it be a springer or gas ram it all boils down to the quality of the gun and tune.

[eeler1]

Ed nailed it earlier in this thread.  Tuned coil spring guns are easier to shoot accurately than gas rams.  If gas rams had any advantage at all, competition shooters would be using them.  They aren't.  Some still use spring piston guns though.

[Franklink]

On the matter of competition......

In the field target club that I'm part of, all but two of the shooters compete only with PCPs. Me and another guy like to shoot Open Class piston occasionally.  The RX2 I mentioned above was purchased with the intent of using it for field target, if it proved to be accurate enough. So far I'm very impressed and planning on using it to compete. His gun is currently at the doctor's office getting better so I'm not in a big hurry with the RX2.

My takeaways so far have been that the RX2 can put out the higher fpe without becoming a rabid barrel of monkeys to shoot. Yes it has recoil, but it's QUICK, straight back, and well mannered. There's a reason that most die hard springer guys always talk about keeping em below 12 fpe and that reason is that a coil wound springer gets real hard to shoot, the higher up the power curve you go. This RX2 seems to allow me to shoot all the way up to 19fpe without accuracy suffering.

As far as competitions and airguns go, the piston class of guns are the minority in general. Most people aren't self masochists I guess.

[Pandur_HR]

Exactly. When it comes to the shooting equipment, just ask yourself a simple question. Do they use it on competitions? That will give you an answer on accuracy and precision.

I am myself die hard springer, but if I have to go on airgun competition, I would choose PCP. If springer is condition, a small light .177 cal. airgun would be my choice.

When it comes to shooting, springers are good for learning, for that reason in some shooting clubs it is started with a springer. Or like in my case, for returning back in a form (I was out of shooting 20+ years). With a springer people learn importance of hold.

Sometime people ask me why I insist soo much on a magnum springer, and I shoot it 50-150m, and I would go for more if the range construction don't limit me. Because on those distances it record and exaggerate even the smallest mistakes I do. And that is exactly what I need, and use it for.
This was how I originally started, and at the end I was shooting targets at 400-600m using iron sight and yugoslav AK-47 in short brusts (with original yugoslav ammo and magazine). That is level which I am trying to get back. Then I would be ready for competition.

[osco]

My Benjamin Black Lightening Nitro Piston 2, a supposed upgrade from gen one Nitros was terrible.

The thing would do a five shot tight group then the next would be five wide.
It would do a 1" group at 25 yards and then do a 5" group with one being a flyer. then go to a 2" group,
then who knows what on the next group.
All the flyers were always very wide right, odd
I did everything, fed the gun heavy pellets of several makes, made sure I was subsonic and followed all the advice I could find.

I shoot my 12 year old Beeman R-10 springer just fine, good groups all the time with only a rare flyer so It's not me.

I gave up at 750 rounds and gave the Benjamin to my Local Gun dealer as a gift, or a curse, not sure what he will think.

Tried a Daisy 880 for some soft low power plinking, It died before It reached 75 shots fired, wally world gave me a full refund.

I'll never part with the R-10 but I must say I found the quiet power I was seeking In a Ruger American Rimfire.
The sub sonic 22 Long rifles scoot out of the barrel at 700 ish FPS and considering the weight of the bullet I'm
In the 35 to 40 ft lbs of energy at 50 plus yards with a very predictable trajectory.
Also found two long rifle hollow points that fly out below 1000 fps and are very very accurate.
This bolt action rim fire is dead still on Ignition just like a pcp and Is just as quiet as my springer.
My first group was a 5 shot 'W' as In all five target holes were touching, That made me happy
The only drawback is picking up the brass in my back yard,,, and 8 to 10 cents a shot....

[Mr. Panther]

     It is all a matter of preference. I have had harsh shooting springers and harsh shooting gas rams. I have found that my gas rams are a lot less hold sensitive than my spring guns. In fact the spring guns I have I de tune a lot of the time just to shoot more the way i like them. Most ot the time when I have killed a scope on a gas ram it is because it wasn't mounted right. I learned about that the hard way.
     I have a couple of harsh shooting gas rams that are in synthetic stocks, (my wood stocks seem to shoot smoother recoil wise), those synth stocks I put modeling clay in to give it more balance and to absorb some of the felt recoil and they feel a lot smoother to me.
     All in all I think it is a subjective thing as I don't find gas rams any harder to cock, than lets say one of the Hatsan spring guns, if I use the same technique to do it. Once again subjectivity of the perception of force needed is a personal thing. Just my two cents. I like them both, I'm not a "product snob" and prefer cheap rifles I can tinker into better shooting rifles. I guess I am the "trailer trash" guy of air guns, but it is the way I like 'em.

[Pandur_HR]

I red on many places that people fill their stocks to add extra weight. So, I tried, and fill it with cat sand in a plastic bags.
Result was not good. So, I empty it back. Despite reviews are marking rifle, I have, as not very hold sensitive. I found it quite opposite, it reacts on a moon position, haircut I have, traffic noise etc. etc.

Best results I get when I minimise the contact, and just let it do things.

Attached target 100m week ago. First 2 are up/left, then I shifted POA and get 2 bottom/right, then I shifted POA again and rifle touched the sand bag, and it went down.

[nced]

     It is all a matter of preference. I have had harsh shooting springers and harsh shooting gas rams. I have found that my gas rams are a lot less hold sensitive than my spring guns. In fact the spring guns I have I de tune a lot of the time just to shoot more the way i like them. Most ot the time when I have killed a scope on a gas ram it is because it wasn't mounted right. I learned about that the hard way.
     I have a couple of harsh shooting gas rams that are in synthetic stocks, (my wood stocks seem to shoot smoother recoil wise), those synth stocks I put modeling clay in to give it more balance and to absorb some of the felt recoil and they feel a lot smoother to me.
     All in all I think it is a subjective thing as I don't find gas rams any harder to cock, than lets say one of the Hatsan spring guns, if I use the same technique to do it. Once again subjectivity of the perception of force needed is a personal thing. Just my two cents. I like them both, I'm not a "product snob" and prefer cheap rifles I can tinker into better shooting rifles. I guess I am the "trailer trash" guy of air guns, but it is the way I like 'em.

"prefer cheap rifles I can tinker into better shooting rifles"
For years I tried to make cheap springers into the equivalent of my Beeman R9 & HW95 and have been unsuccessful to date!

The first "cheap to accurate" attempt was buying a .177 Crosman Quest decades ago when living in West Virginia. It was a cheap package deal of about $100 including the scope. The scope packaged with the gun was literal "trash" and replaced with a known good Bushnell Trophy scope. Scope didn't matter because that Quest would group no better than 1 1/2"ctc at 30 yards no matter what I did to it (fitted guides & trigger insert). Further study showed that a lot of the accuracy issues were due the Diana/Gamo style barrel pivot geometry of "pivot bolt in a sleeve in a hole in the barrel pivot block". With my Quest (a Chinese clone of a Gamo220) sleeve in the barrel pivot block had a rather sloppy fit and the fit between the pivot bolt and sleeve was also sloppy. The real issue however was the fact that the hole in the sleeve for the pivot bolt was eccentric to the OD of the sleeve which caused the sleeve to rotate every few shots. This rotation of the eccentrically bored sleeve caused the poi to rotate around the point of aim. I lathe cut a new sleeve that was indeed concentric and snug fitting to the bore in the barrel pivot block and this single modification reduced the terrible 1 1/2" ctc accuracy at 30 yards to a can rolling only accuracy of 1" ctc.

My next attempt was to buy a REAL Gamo440 on sale for $100 and found that after some internal work and a trigger insert to make the trigger useable I ended up with another "can roller". Matter of fact, after some home machined parts I had a cheap $19.95 Chinese B3 that shot twice as accurate as both the Crosman Quest and Gamo440.
The B iron sight group and scope group (6x Buris Compact) at 25 yards. LOL........must admit that the B3 was fitted with a home rolled oring sealed piston cap that increased the velocity 150fps vs the factory leather seal........



Most recently I bought a .177 Remington Express "fer cheap" (under $100) and the 18 yard rather mediocre group also exhibits an "orbiting around the aim point"...........


Anywhoo......the Quest and Gamo440 were "land filled" when living in West Virginia and the "Remmy" is currently "in parts" due to lack of interest messing with it!

The last springer I bought was a .177 HW95 that was on sale for $299 + shipping ($330 total) and here are a few 18 yardgroups shot with the moderately priced HW offering with a couple different home tunes.........

LOL....even the cheap Winchester pellets from Tractor Supply grouped OK at 18 yards. (LOL....I pulled the 1st shot and then grouped 10 pellets to prove that the flier was "shooter induced" while swaying on the bucket.....

[Mr. Panther]

Well Nced, seeing as you singled me out for MY preference, all I can say is you must be the expert for what everyone should like. My self I am more of a " to each their own", as far as opinions go. Also for the type of shooting I do I don't need a sub MOA rifle. Just one that shoots straight enough to hit what I aim at. Maybe you have a good salery and can afford top end guns, I don't and probably wouldn't spend that much money on a  spring or ram air gun. Like I have said before one mans trash is another mans treasure. Mine are all pure gold to me.

[nced]

Well Nced, seeing as you singled me out for MY preference, all I can say is you must be the expert for what everyone should like. My self I am more of a " to each their own", as far as opinions go. Also for the type of shooting I do I don't need a sub MOA rifle. Just one that shoots straight enough to hit what I aim at. Maybe you have a good salery and can afford top end guns, I don't and probably wouldn't spend that much money on a  spring or ram air gun. Like I have said before one mans trash is another mans treasure. Mine are all pure gold to me.

Fair enough, I apologize to you for directly responding to your "prefer cheap rifles I can tinker into better shooting rifles" statement with my unappreciated opinion based only on accuracy expectations. In the future I won't respond by disagreeing with your opinions.

I also "don't need a sub MOA rifle", however I do need something better than a 3 MOA shooter to do any field target shooting or pesting!