Barrel fouling

[Kinetic45^]

The harder than lead alloy, the less the fouling.
BUT:
1.  at least 1% tin improves castability, the greater the tin percent, the harder the bullet ( to a certain point of diminishing returns)
2. Most people report harder bullets in air rifles are less accurate [It has been true for me, I heard it but tried it anyway and found above Brinell 9 I did lose accuracy. I try to cast at around 7.5 to 8]

[KnifeMaker]

Bullfrog In looking at the bullets you put up, it is clear that only the top of the lands marked the bullet. No groove marks are evident. Further, If you will look at the edge of the rifling mark on the middle land mar,, you will plainly see a rounded edge, showing the presents of lead fouling in the corner of the grooves. And pointing out exactly what we were trying to explain to yo.


And as far as knowing metals, and what can and cannot happen, you should know that my background is in metallurgy, which sir,  "IS a Science". 


Mr Frog, in this case, yes, a rotating brush will remove fouling from the lands, and the very top of the sides of the transition from lands to grooves.  It cannot however, reach the bottom 90% angle of the grooves.


All the "I Think" in the world, will not change the physics.


Knife

[steveoh]

Lead is your friend, lead is your enemy.

.257 Texan after about 50 shots. Ran a patch with Shooters Choice, let soak ten minutes, ran a nylon brush half a dozen times, ran another patch soaked in shooters choice. Ran a dry patch. Ran another patch soaked in Shooters Choice.

I have more work to do.

[KnifeMaker]

Twice I have written this, and twice the computer has erased it. GRRRRR!!!


B.F. On the subject of a softer material abrading a harder material, you state it is science that says it can't. Well, it can, and will,


For an extreme example, let's look at eh case of the Hubble Space Telescope. For the final polish, NASA tech's. used their bare finger tips, adn Thumb pads to polish the lens by simply rubbing it with them. Now the Lens is much harder than any barrel steel. Harder than Heat treated high Speed or Cobalt steel for that matter. Yet it did indeed cut the material on a microscopic level.
 The material in JB paste is softer than barrel steel, yet it does indeed abrade it. I make my own from Damatious Earth. It is again, softer than the steel. (as is Flitz Metal Polish).


these things are the type of things the lyman wouldn't
 normally think about but ,  B.F. this is Science. Not simply "think" or "in my opinion". LOL!

[steveoh]

Bought a crappy $30 bore scope but there’s enough information that you can see shiny bits.

Texan

Citrus

This is after much cleaning. Gah.

[Bullfrog]

Knife, friend, you're straw-manning me! You're arguing something I'm not. I'm not saying that the be-all-end-all of cleaning is using a drill bit and that you should only clean with a drill bit. What I'm arguing is that "soft touch" doesn't work in the long run because lead gunk can become too entrenched to remove with patches or easy brushing alone, and getting hard core doesn't seem to have hurt my barrels.

I'm not necessarily seeing what you are Knife when I look at the bottom bullet, except that I can see that the rifling is rounded. Nor do I even remember if the bottom bullet was representative of when I was done cleaning overall or simply when I was done with the drill bit. But presuming the pattern shows that the barrel isn't yet totally clean, that doesn't invalidate my point. It doesn't matter whether the hard fouling in the Condor was on the lands or the grooves. What matters is that it couldn't be removed thru patches, solvent, or regular brushing or polishing. Not for days' worth of scrubbing or several over-night soaks in solvent. The top bullet did not and could not become the bottom bullet until I gave the barrel a good spinning with a brush and bore paste.

The lesson is two-fold. First, that sometimes lead cannot be removed without intense mechanical scraping. Far more intense than what the talking heads on pellet gun blogs or Youtube channels are comfortable discussing. Second, that such intense mechanical scraping doesn't hurt a steel barrel if done with common sense. 

As for softer metals scratching or not scratching harder metals, you can't compare metal to glass because there's a lot more going that's different between the two besides which is harder. The Hubble doesn't have a lens per-se. It has a series of mirrors that were polished in stages with diamonds, lasers, and finally by hand. One main mirror then some corrective mirrors to fix the mistake they made on the main mirror by giving it the wrong concave. There's no comparison between polishing a space telescope glass mirror and a copper brush inside of a steel gun barrel.

Seems like the experiment should be simple. Find a knife made of a steel comparable to a rifle barrel steel. Then take a copper brush and run it over as hard as you can by hand and see if you can dig out scratches in the knife. Not superficial scratches in the knife's finish. The finish doesn't have anything to do with the steel. Scratch the steel, and scratch it will real scratches that are big and deep enough that they would reasonably effect the bullet. Not microscopic swirls that probably would have no effect. If you can do that, you can reasonably presume that a brush in a rifle barrel could do the same. If you can't, then it would suggest I'm likely right when I say that the copper brush itself (not counting any grit it may pick up), can't hurt barrel steel.

Now Kinetic mentioned something that seemed like it makes sense, at least on paper. Obviously a copper bullet can shoot thru a steel plate depending on the thickness. We all understand that a bullet having its energy forced into a plate, where the bullet may be carrying 1 ton of energy and the bullet is acting a bit like a dowel where all of that energy is being focused into one defined area (remember Mr. Rogers stabbing a potato with a straw to teach about dowels?), that's going to be physically different than brushing copper over a steel surface. But if the bristles get pushed straight down into the steel like a bullet being shot into steel, would those bristles penetrate if they had enough energy? We would need to be able to reasonably guess how much energy is being forced into those bristles when they're being reversed inside the barrel.

Also, I forgot to state that when I spin a brush thru, I usually wrap the brush in copper Choir Boy strands. I didn't do that on the Condor though first time I tried the technique. I noticed my barrels get cleaner with the Choir Boy.

[Kinetic45^]

Lead is your friend, lead is your enemy.

.257 Texan after about 50 shots. Ran a patch with Shooters Choice, let soak ten minutes, ran a nylon brush half a dozen times, ran another patch soaked in shooters choice. Ran a dry patch. Ran another patch soaked in Shooters Choice.

I have more work to do.

Wow, that's some severe lead fouling!
Only time I have seen a gun foul that fast (50 shots) is when there are traces of lead left in the bore, even though it "looks clean".  The invisible leading on the surface of the steel then 'galls' (metal is transferred from one surface to another, just like when screw threads gall/jam) the next bullets fired and it builds up quick again.  The only solution is to make sure the lead is totally removed so no 'seeds' are left.  And if you look at photomicrographs of a steel surface you will see lots of porosity and if a cut surface, jagged peaks and valleys.  A centerfire barrel has the copper bullet and carbon to smooth down and fill that surface roughness but we don't get that.  A rough barrel in an air rifle may need to be lapped to A. Get everything down to bare steel and B. Smooth away that microscopic mountain range.

KnifeMaker (and others) can attest to how his rifles fouled less after lapping / polishing.

I also have found that for barrels that are not lapped or not going to be lapped the Lead Removal chemically treated cloth WORK!  Don't just read where it removes carbon from stainless steel... It removes all the bore lead to, IF used correctly.

I buy the KleenBore Lead Away because you get 100 square inches to cut patches from, the Birchwood Casey gives you a smaller amount for the same price. https://www.brownells.com/gun-cleaning-chemicals/solvents-degreasers/solvents/lead-remover-cloth-prod59702.aspx
The next thing in using it is you have to pressure it into the 90 degree angle of the land and groove where the line of fouling gets missed by brushes and slotted tip patches. I found you have to use something like this https://www.opticsplanet.com/tipton-ultra-jag.html. Tight patch on the jag and run it completely through and back again 3 or 4 times, flip the patch and do it again 3 or 4 times then discard that patch.  That's why a package of cloth lasts years, you don't need much.
And I don't have to do this again, shooting session after shooting session as long as I never let the barrel get loaded up again.  I've got rifles it's been done to once and thousands of rounds with the bore wiped every 50 or 60 shots with Ballistol and properly lubed bullets and the leading never comes back.
After the lead away chem patch treatment then I use regular cleaning to finish up and get the chemical out of the barrel.

There is one thing I sometimes also do one time also, after the deep Lead Away cleaning... I take 30 or 35 bullets and put JB Bore Cleaner paste in the grooves and shoot them to polish the bore.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en-US&ie=UTF-8&source=android-browser&q=kleenbore+lead+away

[KnifeMaker]

Well, I'm lost here. If a mind is not willing to be opened it cannot learn.


 there is no such thng as a barrel steel as hard as a knife steel. Barrel steel is inthe Rockwell range of 42 to 47 rockwell. Very soft in the scheme of things.


Yes, a soft material can arbade a hard material. We have brass that is very abrasive. Lead is added to make it easier to machine, and not wear tooling so quickly. Bronze is much harder, and more abrasive yet.


No you don't have to scrape the lead out. There are now modern chemicals that do a fine job for us. We are no longer in the 1800's. But unless one is willing to learn, it is all for nothing.


Come on BullFrog, be a shooter, learn, and don't
' change your name to bull head. LOL 

[Bullfrog]

Come on BullFrog, be a shooter, learn, and don't
' change your name to bull head. LOL

Hey, that could apply to you as well. You could be just as wrong as you think I am!

Yes, a soft material can arbade a hard material.

You said "material." The question is really can softer "metal" remove harder "metal."

No you don't have to scrape the lead out. There are now modern chemicals that do a fine job for us. We are no longer in the 1800's. But unless one is willing to learn, it is all for nothing.

But I have soaked my barrels for days, and sometimes solvents won't remove some lead deposits. The harshest I've tried has been Shooter's Choice. Sometimes nothing works. What's you're explanation as to why sometimes multi-day soaks don't work? There has to be one.

If knife steel is too hard, then try it on a barrel. Surely you have an extra barrel laying around. Try to damage one by brushing with a copper brush.

I have a couple of extra Mrod .25 barrels laying around.  Why don't I give one of them *(&^ with a copper brush and see if it can scratch it in any meaningful way? Would doing it on the outside of the barrel be just as valid as doing it on the inside so that the results can be seen?

[Kinetic45^]

I believe I will unfollow this thread as it is not...

May all here have a good day today, a better day tomorrow and keep up that trend

[QVTom]

I had the privilege of speaking to Mr Douglas of the renouned Douglas barrels many years ago about cleaning a barrel I'd bought for a custom match rifle and he told me using bronze brushes was OK but never to reverse the brush direction in the barrel because it did microscope damage to the steel.  He SHOWED me microscopic photos of a test barrel that had been repeatededly cleaned that way vs a barrel cleaned with only pass through cleaning and it was ROUGHER!  He had also tested different cleaning methods on bench guns to see what effected accuracy, not just ' old wives tales' or stuff
So I to always pass completely through before reversing direction.
And clean from the rear if possible but ALWAYS use a chamber or muzzle guide because cleaning rod wear ruined more barrels than anything else.
And working through an apprenticeship for gunsmith I saw how lots of bad shooting guns with such wear became more accurate after 1/2" was cut off the muzzle and recrowned.
Most air rifles get cleaned from the muzzle and have short loading ports (a rifle brush is too long so use shorter pistol brushes of the right calibur) so you have to be smarter on cleaning.

I guess I'm going south to a hotter climate because I not only advocate cleaning from the muzzle I've been doing it for years.  Oh, I reverse direction mid-bore too...

[QVTom]

Barrel wear related to cleaning....


Most airgun barrels are made from low carbon DOM tubing.  Tubings is reamed to final dimension and button rifled.  Low carbon steel is very soft and has poor dent and abrasion resistance.  This describes all LW airgun barrels and most others.  Some airgun barrels are hammer forged from low carbon DOM; the cold forming does increase the material density and surface hardness some, but low carbon steel durability can't be substantially increased without the addition of carbon (carburizing or case hardening).  The last common option for low carbon DOM is cut rifling.  It seems that cut rifling has gone the way of the Dodo bird with the exception of extremely high grade competition barrels from makers like Krieger and Bartlein.

Firearm barrels are generally made from two variants of steel.  (excluding black powder barrels which are usually low carbon).  4150 chrome moly or 416R stainless steel.  Chrome moly is known for its extreme toughness and wear resistance and 416 is known for is resistance to flame erosion and ability to hold an ultra fine finish.  It is important to note, both these materials are well suited for heat treatment and are of the type that through hardens unlike the surface hardening that carburizing brings to low carbon steels.

TJ barrels or more accurately liners (they are meant to re-line burned out firearm barrels) are a bit of an outlier, they are hammer forged from 4130 chrome moly tubing.  This gives them similar properties  to 4150 firearms barrels but not exactly.

Where am I going with this?  Some types barrels are mores prone to damage from cleaning than others. 

Airgun barrels - As stated above,  DOM low carbon is very soft and abrades easily; this is where the never clean and never use a brush comes from.  Never clean and never brush really don't belong together; they don't go hand in hand.  Never clean comes from the extremely low contact area of a diabolo pellet and the diabolo pellet is the defacto projectile for airguns.  While this can be true with a high quality barrel with an excellent internal finish it certainly is false for a poor quality barrel with a rough interior.  A good quality barrel can go thousands of rounds with pellets and a poor one could be in the hundreds.  Also poor ones seem to perform poorly after cleaning and require some seasoning (leading) to perform optimally.  No brushing comes from the the potential damage due to the extreme soft nature of low carbon steel but it is not the brush material itself that does the damage; more on that later.

Firearm barrels - Made from materials with superior properties along with heat treatment they have a much higher level of abrasion resistance than low carbon.  Chrome moly is more wear resistant than 416 stainless, this is why it's prominent in in applications with high rates of use and stainless is preferred for applications where throat erosion from hot gas and high pressure is problematic.  There are other characteristics that are important for each material;  for the purpose of barrel wear and damage, it is safe to say there are both superior to low carbon airgun barrels.

TJ Liners - Hammer forged from normalized (stress relieved through tempering to stress from the tube forming process) chrome moly share similar wear resistance as 4150 barrels made from heat treated and tempered bar stock.  Although not heat treated, the natural properties of chrome moly combined with the hammer forging process give a similar result in surface hardness.

Now that we know the differences in the types of barrels let's look at mechanism that "wears out" your barrel during cleaning.   Is it the brass that scratches and wears on the barrel or maybe it's the rod if it's able to rub on internal surfaces?   Relatively soft brass can not scratch steel, not even soft ones; nylon can not scratch either but somehow overzealous cleaning will wear your barrel?  The real culprit is grit, dust, debris that embeds in the brass or nylon brush that causes the damage.  Hard materials that are embedded into softer substrates are science of all abrasives.  In reality, it's environmental contamination embedding into your cleaning equipment that is responsible wear.

How can this be avoided?  Always clean with something like a soft patch first to wipe out any grit or debris from the field.  Clean your brass or nylon brushes constantly to remove and grit they have brushed out of the barrel.  Brake cleaner in the aerosol can works well for this.  Most importantly, use NON EMBEDDING materials for your cleaning equipment.  Some materials embed particles easily, lead comes to mind (this is why lead is used for lapping, it will hold the abrasive particles in place so they can work efficiently), brass embeds but not as easily as lead.  Nylon is known for its ability to reject imbedding to some extent but unfortunately is it poor at scrubbing out lead.  Use rods made of hardened steel (hardened steel rejects imbedding) or use one with a non embedding coating.  Of course use a guide to eliminate as much contact as possible.

Low carbon barrels are more prone to damage and wear simply because they are softer and less wear resistant.  The superior materials used in firearms barrels are far less prone to wear and damage from cleaning but are not immune.  They key to make sure that you are not embedding dirt, dust, etc into you cleaning tools and LET THE SOLVENT DO THE WORK.  With a little common sense and knowledge all barrels can be cleaned with brushes from any end with any combinations of stokes.

Tom

[KnifeMaker]

Thank you Tom, the "Voice of Reason"


I too am going to forgo this thread as it far too much like trying to talk to a teenager. GRRRR!!!


I'm too old for such nonsense. 

[Bullfrog]

Thank you Tom, the "Voice of Reason"


I too am going to forgo this thread as it far too much like trying to talk to a teenager. GRRRR!!!


I'm too old for such nonsense. 

But Tom backed me up. He clearly said a brass brush won’t scratch a barrel, but an abraisive grit might. That’s what I’ve clearly been saying.

Its not fair for you or Kinetic to get upset just because I’m not agreeing with you. My mind is open, but I’m not willing to accept an assertion that contradicts my experience just because you say so, no more than I expect you to do the same with my assertion. What I’m saying is, show me proof. Seems like brushing a barrel hard with a brush would be a doable experiment.

[Bullfrog]

Now that we know the differences in the types of barrels let's look at mechanism that "wears out" your barrel during cleaning.   Is it the brass that scratches and wears on the barrel or maybe it's the rod if it's able to rub on internal surfaces?   Relatively soft brass can not scratch steel, not even soft ones; nylon can not scratch either but somehow overzealous cleaning will wear your barrel?  The real culprit is grit, dust, debris that embeds in the brass or nylon brush that causes the damage.  Hard materials that are embedded into softer substrates are science of all abrasives.  In reality, it's environmental contamination embedding into your cleaning equipment that is responsible wear.

[Bullfrog]

Tom, I have experienced some circumstances where solvent didn’t seem to loosen up my lead (and plenty of other times where it has). What would be some reasons where solvent may not do the trick? On those hard cases I have plugged the barrel and left the solvent  in overnight. I have used Shooter’s Choice before. These days I use Hoppes just because its what I have and I have a tendency to get it all over my hands. I remember the Shooter’s Choice to be pretty harsh.

What I can said about the hard cases is that the barrels were neglected and not brushed in years.

[steveoh]

This is a great thread. I think a mighty fine sticky could be made from this.

I dreamt about cleaning barrels last night, then woke up and couldn’t go back to sleep. Hello insomnia.

Anywho, went back to reading more on the subject, and found some awesome arguments, ummm I mean debates,  in the Centerfire world on using everything from copper, bronze and (Eeeeeek!) stainless steel wool. Perhaps my favorite was the fussing about using JB Bore Cleaner. 

No one anywhere has offered up any scientific proof of what works the best on a leaded up barrel or what causes the most or least damage.

Ohhhh just like motor oil threads in the car and truck forums we really haven’t addressed the super important magic barrel lubrications. I bet there’s some magic lube that that prevents all fouling!

Way back when I was a young feller, a way older machinist (who was missing a finger due a lathe accident) shared with me his super magic personal concoction of lead, Teflon, and other things he wouldn’t share with me. I always suspected a bit of bacon fat, but he took the secret to his grave. Anyway this was by his own estimation  the finest anti-seize that money couldn’t buy, and prevented galling of steel bolts in Moto Guzzi soft aluminum engine parts. He also swore by its prevention of damage of the clutch plates to engine gear splines. It was guaranteed not to run, and destroy the friction properties of those metal impregnated clutch plates.


But I’ve gotta say, there’s some valuable information in this thread and I’ll bookmark it.

[Kinetic45^]

OK, because a fellow GTA member sent me a private message I'm going return here to comment on an effective lead removal tool but emphasize the safety issue.

Yes, you can use a 50/50 mixture of hydrogen peroxide and vinegar and it will strip the lead out of any barrel in minuets. 3 to 4 works

The peroxide acts as a catalyst which causes the solution to remove the lead and converts it into lead acetate crystals. The vapors are extremely hazardous and the lead acetate solution easily passes through your skin and it is TOXIC! Repeat, TOXIC

I HAVE used it (in the past) but I wear nitrile gloves and pour the used solution into an old battery that's going for disposal as the recycling center can handle the solution when they drain the batteries.  DO NOT POUR IT DOWN THE DRAIN OR INTO THE LAND!!!!!

It will also take the bluing off any external surface
It's corrosive to aluminum. (and has to be neutralized as it continues to corrode/weaken long term if just wiped or casually washed off)
If you leave it to soak for 15 or 20 minutes it can pit some barrels, left overnight it will ruin any barrel.

I do not recommend using this!!!!!

Hey, if you don't want to use the treated lead removal patches, Shooters Choice Lead Remover works too (weakly IMHO, but it works) https://www.brownells.com/gun-cleaning-chemicals/solvents-degreasers/bore-solvents/4-oz-lead-remover-sku934004004-13899-33311.aspx?cm_mmc=cse-_-Itwine-_-shopzilla-_-934-004-004&utm_medium=cse&utm_source=connexity&utm_campaign=itwine&utm_content=934-004-004

And finally, wrapping a piece of Chore Boy around a brush helps strip out the bulk lead on a really fouled bore so then you can use the more deep cleaning methods.

As per barrel lubrication, what a can of worms to open!  QVTom did suggest Accuracy Oil in another thread which is working for multiple shooters (including me) but I am also testing multiple other things like Hi-Tek and Rooster Jacket coatings.
Bye

[KnifeMaker]

The Lewis lead remover tool use to be popular in Handgunning years ago. don't know much of anything about it.


Knife

[Ben in Va]

I'm no bigbore expert by any means, but for maintenance cleanings I have been using boresnakes sprayed with BreakFree CLP.  I use this for all my airguns.  Works great on my Badger.  I've been cleaning it every 50 shots or so.  Not due to accuracy issues though.  Just for good measure.  Takes me about 3-4 shots to get her back on point.  However I just cleaned my .25 RS2 after maybe, two years cause accuracy became an issue.