SSP rifle concept; based on Baikal IZH MP-46M pistol



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SSP rifle concept; based on Baikal IZH MP-46M pistol
« on: January 21, 2019, 08:59:39 AM »
This thread is about the "bones" of a SSP rifle concept.  It is unashamedly based on the cocking mechanism of the Baikal IZH MP-46M SSP pistol; except the rifle barrel would also function as the cocking lever.  The rifle would have twice the swept volume; and twice the barrel length compared to the pistol; to achieve twice the FPE. 

Baikal IZH MP-46M SSP pistol:





SSP Rifle Concept:

Images with wood fore-end represent latest design; as at 23 January 2019.  Includes reinforcing tube sections at front and rear ends of compression cylinder; and has barrel pivot location lowered, to improved strength of forward connecting rod at it mid-length "notch".













Alternative fore-end cut:



{By the way; the long piston shown above and below, removes the need for a connecting rod with a "kink" in it. (See pistol design, with kinky connecting rod; linked below).  Don't worry; the piston won't have a heavy solid body, like the one shown below.  It will consist of a threaded rod with just the functional head and tail sections...}


Background:
I really like my Baikal IZH MP-46M SSP pistol.  It is accurate, shoots hard for a target pistol; and above all, is very easy to cock. 

Inspired by this pistol, I modeled its cocking mechanism in Solidworks.  For the images in this thread about the SSP rifle to make sense, they should be viewed in the context of the 3D model of the pistol, and the analysis of the cocking dynamics given at this link:   https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=153475.msg155688851#msg155688851


The IZH 46M pistol's fixed barrel and underlever cocking no doubt enable its accuracy.  Its breech is reasonably accessible too.  Now, rather than simply stretch all the parts, I elected to save weight by using the barrel as the cocking lever.  The loading actions and breech access would be comparable with a break barrel springer.

I happen to have a 21" long 25 mm pneumatic actuator cylinder that could be re-purposed; so the design is based on that (but could obviously use something different)  Thus, the barrel length in the concept shown below works with the available compression cylinder length; and should support cocking effort goals reasonably well. 

The effective cocking lever length falls short of the 24", a doubled-up pistol would suggest.  However, stretching the whole rifle length beyond a probable 34" overall length could make restore that cocking leverage, if required.   This would require a longer compression cylinder (or chassis attached to the tube); and would enable a longer barrel than 2X compared to the pistol.

Side-lever cocking would have enabled the muzzle to overhang the front of the compression cylinder.  However, due to the placement of the hinges, my design forces the muzzle to be back from the front of the air cylinder, and to pass through the cylinder to reach "full cock".  This is a bit odd, and drives the shape of the short hooded frontal connecting rod.

Below are two shapes shown for this frontal connecting rod.  The question is, which looks better?  Or are they both hideous?

By the way, the muzzle end is the end near the hinges....


This is just a thought exercise at this point, but any comments are welcome.

« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 09:23:55 AM by subscriber »
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Re: SSP rifle concept
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2019, 09:01:38 AM »
More...
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Re: SSP rifle concept
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2019, 09:02:56 AM »
Long nose...
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 09:07:04 AM by subscriber »
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Re: SSP rifle concept
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2019, 09:08:25 AM »
Which has a better looking "muzzle end"?







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Re: SSP rifle concept; based on Baikal IZH MP-46M pistol
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2019, 02:57:07 AM »
Edited original post; above.  Added images with wood fore-end to represent latest design; as at 23 January 2019.

Also added reinforcing tube sections at front and rear ends of compression cylinder.  Barrel pivot location has been lowered, to improved strength of forward connecting rod at it mid-length "notch".  Over-center geometry of piston when pressurized is unchanged.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 02:59:26 AM by subscriber »
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Re: SSP rifle concept; based on Baikal IZH MP-46M pistol
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2019, 03:03:06 AM »
Not seeing any "wood". Am I missing something?

I like the lowered version better. Just looks more streamlined, less "Russian", haha.
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Re: SSP rifle concept; based on Baikal IZH MP-46M pistol
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2019, 03:35:37 AM »
Not seeing any "wood". Am I missing something?

Not seeing wood in this image?

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Re: SSP rifle concept; based on Baikal IZH MP-46M pistol
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2019, 08:52:11 AM »
Very cool!!
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Re: SSP rifle concept; based on Baikal IZH MP-46M pistol
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2019, 10:07:10 AM »
Ahh.....I didn't look far enough upward in the thread. You did say "edit original post" but I worked late last night, so....


Anyway, the one I thought looked less Russian is the lower pic of the pair above (non wood pics). The barrel sitting more snugly to the pump tube and the front slope of the barrel "hood" just looks better to me.
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Re: SSP rifle concept; based on Baikal IZH MP-46M pistol
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2019, 11:16:40 PM »
Peter, do you see this as a way to get an SSP up into higher MV's? Given the greater leverage you'd have with a longer barrel (than say a 46M's cocking lever) you could increase the swept area and realize a gain in power.

Now that would be a nice alternative to PCP's or multi-pumps. And shoot a lot smoother than a break barrel springer.
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Re: SSP rifle concept; based on Baikal IZH MP-46M pistol
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2019, 11:34:00 PM »
id go overkill on the barrel diameter or add some " spine " to it.. depending on the bore size of the piston i like the layout.. ( we previously discussed an extended p17 last yr )
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Re: SSP rifle concept; based on Baikal IZH MP-46M pistol
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2019, 11:34:52 PM »
Peter, do you see this as a way to get an SSP up into higher MV's? Given the greater leverage you'd have with a longer barrel (than say a 46M's cocking lever) you could increase the swept area and realize a gain in power.

Now that would be a nice alternative to PCP's or multi-pumps. And shoot a lot smoother than a break barrel springer.

In a nutshell; exactly.

Double the swept volume, double the barrel length; for double the expansion ratio and double the leverage. 

So twice the FPE of the pistol, for the same peak cocking force; gained via the longer stroke, and greater leverage.
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Re: SSP rifle concept; based on Baikal IZH MP-46M pistol
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2019, 11:43:41 PM »
Peter, do you see this as a way to get an SSP up into higher MV's? Given the greater leverage you'd have with a longer barrel (than say a 46M's cocking lever) you could increase the swept area and realize a gain in power.

Now that would be a nice alternative to PCP's or multi-pumps. And shoot a lot smoother than a break barrel springer.

In a nutshell; exactly.

Double the swept volume, double the barrel length; for double the expansion ratio and double the leverage. 

So twice the FPE of the pistol, for the same peak cocking force; gained via the longer stroke, and greater leverage.

VERY COOL!!

So when are you sending me the prototype for testing?  :P
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Re: SSP rifle concept; based on Baikal IZH MP-46M pistol
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2019, 12:03:23 AM »
id go overkill on the barrel diameter or add some " spine " to it.. depending on the bore size of the piston i like the layout.. ( we previously discussed an extended p17 last yr )

I am planning to massage the design to accommodate a 3/4" shrouded barrel.  That said, if you look at the whimpy cocking arm section on the piston, the barrel in  my 1/2" OD design is much stronger in bending to carry the same peak force, despite the increase in length.

At this point, the plan is to make this device in .177.  The pistol achieves a maximum velocity of 495 FPS with 7.4 grain pellets, and a maximum of 4.25 ft.lb with 10.34 grain pellets.  An 8 ft.lb rifle would put it in the same class as a hot shooting HW30.  I may try to boost the stroke length a little, but the overall length of and weight of the rifle would suffer, it taken too far. 

Right now, the overall length would be about 36" with a 14" length of pull stock.  I think that exceeding 40" would completely spoil the result, assuming it could be done.  Else, 12 ft.lb may be possible.  The thing is that simply tripling the swept volume of the pistol will not yield thee times the FPE.  Not unless the efficiency stayed the same.  I am convinced that the way to achieve this would be to keep the compression volume the same, such that the peak pressure nearly triples.  That would triple the peak cocking force, unless the barrel were three times as long...

I might consider a bullpup configuration to keep things short, but would prefer something that has a look and feel closer to an HW50.

I tried cocking a "30 lb peak cocking force" gas ram "springer" upside down, to simulate the barrel cocking lever ergonomics of this SSP rifle.  I can't do it.  So, I really do not want to go much over a peak cocking force of 20 lb at any barrel length.  Either that, or I need to make this a fixed barrel SSP, with under-lever or side-lever cocking...  Somehow, cocking in the normal springer break-barrel direction, my point of objection is much higher than 30 lb.  Just not "upside down".  Maybe I need to swap hands, or something :)
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 12:19:17 AM by subscriber »
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Re: SSP rifle concept; based on Baikal IZH MP-46M pistol
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2019, 12:06:17 AM »
So when are you sending me the prototype for testing?  :P

Getting older is not as much fun as it is cracked up to be:  My ability to imagine stuff only gets better, but my energy to actually produce parts keeps going down.  One of the few things I miss about working for a large company, is having a crew that can help implement ideas; and carry them to completion...
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Re: SSP rifle concept; based on Baikal IZH MP-46M pistol
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2019, 12:16:48 AM »
makes sense.. instead of machining each and every part. is there any way you could cannabilize some parts from a chinese springer ?? also  dont  overlook the load lower on the pivot  end of the barrel.. if the peak pistol forces are double to triple , the forces at your hand might be reduced but that wont change the forces at the pivot point ( or close to the pivot point )
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 12:22:13 AM by Rob M »
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Re: SSP rifle concept; based on Baikal IZH MP-46M pistol
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2019, 12:21:36 AM »
makes sense.. instead of machining each and every part. is there any way you could cannabilize some parts from a chinese springer ??

I like the way you think.   Am waiting for two 880 refurbs to arrive for that exact purpose...
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Re: SSP rifle concept; based on Baikal IZH MP-46M pistol
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2019, 12:24:25 AM »
Quote
Am waiting for two 880 refurbs to arrive for that exact purpose...

the plot thickens.......
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Re: SSP rifle concept; based on Baikal IZH MP-46M pistol
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2019, 12:26:32 AM »
ive painted myself into a corner before only to realize afterwards i could have used cheap factory made parts that are readily available lol
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Re: SSP rifle concept; based on Baikal IZH MP-46M pistol
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2019, 12:46:59 AM »
Really cool idea.

I think it looks cool. I am OK with the barrel shorter than the powerplant/mechanism.

They both look good. Maybe do whatever configuration is easier to produce. If I help with review, can I get a deal on one?

Definitely looks like it would be a fun AG to own.
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