One of the most compelling reasons to buy good vintage airguns

[Bryan Heimann]

^^^I guess hard core twanger folks will always be just that. Same goes for us Vintage pumper fans. Once you find something that works you stick with it & believe you me, Vintage pumpers can hang with just about any twanger.

I wouldn't consider myself hardcore twanger folk. But I am a bit anti-pcp.  Rather, anti price point PCP.  Within what I might spend on a rifle, there is not a PCP that meets my standards for quality or durability.  Would rather have even a chinese breakbarrel.  If I were to go for a low end PCP it would have to be a BSA or Gamo, with the threaded barrel instead of the noise device.

I 100% agree a solid vintage MSP can hang/hold it's own with anything in the field.  Especially a good brass vintage pumper.  And steel corrodes readily in comparison to brass.

Long story short, brass wins that battle.  But a good springer can hold it's own as well!

[Yng@hrt]

Points well taken Bryan.
 
I am always amused when I read through the old docs that came with my Benji’s & Dan’s. Case in point; ---Accuracy: groups at 25’- 342... 3/4”, 347... 5/8”---. This tells me neither of these gun makers really knew how accurate their guns were. Both these guns will literally stack pellets at 10M. My guess is well beyond that if it weren’t for shooter error & you don’t have to waste ½ a day trying to figure out what to feed them. Best part is only a slight trigger mod is needed on some Benji's to smooth out the burs, & Dan's are ready to go right out of the box. One of the best, if not the best trigger pulls of all Vintage guns. So I guess my point is if you can’t get at least the manufactures size groups with these guns, it’s not the gun. Their that good. 

[Bryan Heimann]

Points well taken Bryan.
 
I am always amused when I read through the old docs that came with my Benji’s & Dan’s. Case in point; ---Accuracy: groups at 25’- 342... 3/4”, 347... 5/8”---. This tells me neither of these gun makers really knew how accurate their guns were. Both these guns will literally stack pellets at 10M. My guess is well beyond that if it weren’t for shooter error & you don’t have to waste ½ a day trying to figure out what to feed them. Best part is only a slight trigger mod is needed on some Benji's to smooth out the burs, & Dan's are ready to go right out of the box. One of the best, if not the best trigger pulls of all Vintage guns. So I guess my point is if you can’t get at least the manufactures size groups with these guns, it’s not the gun. Their that good. 

Plus, consider what most pellets used to be like.  I'd say 5/8-3/4" with crosman ashcans would be darn good.

[bantam5s]

Points well taken Bryan.
 
I am always amused when I read through the old docs that came with my Benji’s & Dan’s. Case in point; ---Accuracy: groups at 25’- 342... 3/4”, 347... 5/8”---. This tells me neither of these gun makers really knew how accurate their guns were. Both these guns will literally stack pellets at 10M. My guess is well beyond that if it weren’t for shooter error & you don’t have to waste ½ a day trying to figure out what to feed them. Best part is only a slight trigger mod is needed on some Benji's to smooth out the burs, & Dan's are ready to go right out of the box. One of the best, if not the best trigger pulls of all Vintage guns. So I guess my point is if you can’t get at least the manufactures size groups with these guns, it’s not the gun. Their that good.

Oh my blue streak has a great trigger as does the yeller 312 you sent me and the '81 342 I got going again.
The 'dan is the best, but all have stock triggers better than I'm sure most if not all relatively affordable guns come with today ( don't hold me to that as I've not experienced enough guns, but it seems like a safe bet )

[Bryan Heimann]

Only a handful of low end guns have triggers that could be better, and only after some tinkering beyond the normal adjustment.  Not counting the occasional halfprice bargain, of course.

[Yng@hrt]

My point & I think David's point is that Dan's are not considered target guns & Springers & PCP's are. Their advantage over pumpers are their adjustable triggers. Point being, even though I do not have a trigger pull gauge I can almost guarantee my Dan's are right around 2 to under a 3 lb pull. A Benji can also get the same results with a small amount of effort but where the Dan has it's advantage over the Benji is in the trigger itself. Much more streamline than a Benji's. 

[Glasstomb]

My point & I think David's point is that Dan's are not considered target guns & Springers & PCP's are. Their advantage over pumpers are their adjustable triggers. Point being, even though I do not have a trigger pull gauge I can almost guarantee my Dan's are right around 2 to under a 3 lb pull. A Benji can also get the same results with a small amount of effort but where the Dan has it's advantage over the Benji is in the trigger itself. Much more streamline than a Benji's.

Marty -

I posted something similar on the "What Have I got Now" thread by Don_G.

I had many Sheridan's but I got my first 312 a few years back. It had what I thought was a great trigger. Pull could be measured @ 1lb if not ounces. One day while hitting spinners the thing when off with me barely touching the trigger. I thought this maybe dangerous so I pulled out the hammer. Found that over time the safety had carved a notch on the hammer ridge. The hammer had rotated to where trigger was barley catching on the notch. Some research showed that this was a problem with the way the safety works.  Rotating the hammer solved the problem. And it's still a great trigger.

On the advertised group size I would agree that old Crosman ashcans and the yellow box Sherdan's limited accuracy. It wasn't until more modern pellets were developed that the true potential of these old pumpers was realized.

[45flint]

There is probably a reason the vintage guns had better, lighter triggers, that was before the companies hired attorneys?  I’m always amazed at the nice light trigger on my 1930’s Crosman 102.  I saw a UTube review of the Crosman Blue Streak and the pull was 6 pounds.  One of the reasons a adjustable trigger on a newer gun is a good thing, there going to leave the factory probably heavier than you want.

[Yng@hrt]

Quasar- I have never tried the earlier pellets although I may at some point just for kicks. I wouldn't be at all surprised if groupings turn out better than advertised.

I had no idea how much effort it takes on a shooters part for a guns ultimate performance. This is old news to most on here so I'll make it short; I stumbled onto the Shooters Gate here on GTA earlier this year & was AMAZED at the results some members were having with there air guns. These guys were knocking down bulls the size of a pellet (literally) like they were dimes at 10M. I struggled & struggled (just short of wrapping guns around a tree) til everything seemed to come together. Here are some samples of what these guns are capable of...

[45flint]

When I started collecting 3 years ago my only experience with airguns was a Spring Beeman R1, I bought used 20 years ago.  Never really shoot that much with it, I was to busy with work and kids. But now in retirement I’ve really enjoyed collecting airguns and backyard shooting.  What I enjoy are the many different types of airguns that were made over the years and the different traditions that developed in different countries. I do refuse to go down the PCP path given my love for vintage.  Most have their certain advantages and disadvantages and to me the joy is in the variety.  The reality is the vintage European Springers are better built guns than American pumpers. American’s would not pay the price for firearm quality air rifles.  We will buy a firearm.  In Europe the airgun was far more the primary rifle of choice.  In Europe airguns were often made by the same companies that made firearms and early on were made to the same standards.  But that quality slowly deteriorated as they too had to face cost realities from the 1970’s on. 

[Yng@hrt]

The reality is the vintage European Springers are better built guns than American pumpers. American’s would not pay the price for firearm quality air rifles.  We will buy a firearm. 

You are talking apples & oranges Steve. My point bringing American made Vintage Pumpers into the equation is that they can & are capable of competing with ANY Springer out there even if they are considered inferior by some.

To your point on American's not willing to pay for quality air guns back when; I will agree this holds true for me simply because I grew up in a state where air guns were unheard of. But what about the rest of the country? In the short time I've been here it has become quite apparent there are some pretty hard core air gunners out there that wouldn't have hesitated to fork out a little more $ if an American company had something to offer which could compete with those you speak of.

[Bryan Heimann]

I would say that the quality standards of firearms have also decreased.

[Glasstomb]

I think that access and availability of firearms in the USA (vs the restrictions in Europe) is the main reason that Americans purchased firearms over airguns.

When a Sheridan model A cost the same as a quality 22lr, the choice was almost unanimous for the .22lr. And that I believe caused the demise of the model A.   

In this part of the country where lot sizes are often measured in square feet vs square miles, it’s almost a necessity to go to a firearm range.  Here, this lack of places to shoot coupled with our own higher firearm restrictions has, especially in recent years, increased the popularity of airguns. Ironically in the birthplace of the American firearms industry, there’s nowhere to shoot. With an airgun I can maintain my skill in my basement.

 What would be interesting to see from the European manufacturers is their (both past and present) percentage of sales to the US market.

[bantam5s]

My point & I think David's point is that Dan's are not considered target guns & Springers & PCP's are. Their advantage over pumpers are their adjustable triggers. Point being, even though I do not have a trigger pull gauge I can almost guarantee my Dan's are right around 2 to under a 3 lb pull. A Benji can also get the same results with a small amount of effort but where the Dan has it's advantage over the Benji is in the trigger itself. Much more streamline than a Benji's.

Marty -

I posted something similar on the "What Have I got Now" thread by Don_G.

I had many Sheridan's but I got my first 312 a few years back. It had what I thought was a great trigger. Pull could be measured @ 1lb if not ounces. One day while hitting spinners the thing when off with me barely touching the trigger. I thought this maybe dangerous so I pulled out the hammer. Found that over time the safety had carved a notch on the hammer ridge. The hammer had rotated to where trigger was barley catching on the notch. Some research showed that this was a problem with the way the safety works.  Rotating the hammer solved the problem. And it's still a great trigger.

On the advertised group size I would agree that old Crosman ashcans and the yellow box Sherdan's limited accuracy. It wasn't until more modern pellets were developed that the true potential of these old pumpers was realized.

I have heard of this issue which is why I tightened the screw down to lock it in place, not that I need a safety while plinking anyways.

[45flint]

The reality is the vintage European Springers are better built guns than American pumpers. American’s would not pay the price for firearm quality air rifles.  We will buy a firearm. 

You are talking apples & oranges Steve. My point bringing American made Vintage Pumpers into the equation is that they can & are capable of competing with ANY Springer out there even if they are considered inferior by some.

To your point on American's not willing to pay for quality air guns back when; I will agree this holds true for me simply because I grew up in a state where air guns were unheard of. But what about the rest of the country? In the short time I've been here it has become quite apparent there are some pretty hard core air gunners out there that wouldn't have hesitated to fork out a little more $ if an American company had something to offer which could compete with those you speak of.

This may be the first American made spring rifle of which you speak, just hitting the store now I believe or about to. It’s $400 will American’s pay that much for a real quality rifle?  Interesting to that it’s from a firearms manufacturer.

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=139390.0

[Glasstomb]

David -

I did the same on mine. Also I heard that at one point they would not fix the issue but offered a $70 return credit towards a new purchase.

[bantam5s]

When I started collecting 3 years ago my only experience with airguns was a Spring Beeman R1, I bought used 20 years ago.  Never really shoot that much with it, I was to busy with work and kids. But now in retirement I’ve really enjoyed collecting airguns and backyard shooting.  What I enjoy are the many different types of airguns that were made over the years and the different traditions that developed in different countries. I do refuse to go down the PCP path given my love for vintage.  Most have their certain advantages and disadvantages and to me the joy is in the variety.  The reality is the vintage European Springers are better built guns than American pumpers. American’s would not pay the price for firearm quality air rifles.  We will buy a firearm.  In Europe the airgun was far more the primary rifle of choice.  In Europe airguns were often made by the same companies that made firearms and early on were made to the same standards.  But that quality slowly deteriorated as they too had to face cost realities from the 1970’s on.

They may have been finished better, but when the cards are on the table to they actually do anything better ?

If they're not generally more accurate and don't actually hold up better / last longer, then they're really not " made better " they just have nicer wood and better finish.

[bantam5s]

David -

I did the same on mine. Also I heard that at one point they would not fix the issue but offered a $70 return credit towards a new purchase.

I did hear that crosman considered these unsafe and would offer $70 towards a new Benjamin, whether that's true or not I don't know.
 I hate to think how many may have been turned in to crosman and destroyed.

[45flint]

When I started collecting 3 years ago my only experience with airguns was a Spring Beeman R1, I bought used 20 years ago.  Never really shoot that much with it, I was to busy with work and kids. But now in retirement I’ve really enjoyed collecting airguns and backyard shooting.  What I enjoy are the many different types of airguns that were made over the years and the different traditions that developed in different countries. I do refuse to go down the PCP path given my love for vintage.  Most have their certain advantages and disadvantages and to me the joy is in the variety.  The reality is the vintage European Springers are better built guns than American pumpers. American’s would not pay the price for firearm quality air rifles.  We will buy a firearm.  In Europe the airgun was far more the primary rifle of choice.  In Europe airguns were often made by the same companies that made firearms and early on were made to the same standards.  But that quality slowly deteriorated as they too had to face cost realities from the 1970’s on.

They may have been finished better, but when the cards are on the table to they actually do anything better ?

If they're not generally more accurate and don't actually hold up better / last longer, then they're really not " made better " they just have nicer wood and better finish.

I totally understand the love of vintage pumpers, I treasure my Crosman 108 as much if not more than my European rifles but all I have to do on build quality is show you the cocking lever of a Webley Mark 3.  Milled still, set screws to keep others from loosening.  Compare that to a pressed steel cocking arm with rivets of my 108 going through a pivot rod I had to replaced when I got it.  Sent back a 110 with a broken brass end cap.  Below your looking at a 60 year old rifle.

[bantam5s]

The reality is the vintage European Springers are better built guns than American pumpers. American’s would not pay the price for firearm quality air rifles.  We will buy a firearm. 

You are talking apples & oranges Steve. My point bringing American made Vintage Pumpers into the equation is that they can & are capable of competing with ANY Springer out there even if they are considered inferior by some.

To your point on American's not willing to pay for quality air guns back when; I will agree this holds true for me simply because I grew up in a state where air guns were unheard of. But what about the rest of the country? In the short time I've been here it has become quite apparent there are some pretty hard core air gunners out there that wouldn't have hesitated to fork out a little more $ if an American company had something to offer which could compete with those you speak of.

This may be the first American made spring rifle of which you speak, just hitting the store now I believe or about to. It’s $400 will American’s pay that much for a real quality rifle?  Interesting to that it’s from a firearms manufacturer.

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=139390.0

In general the average non hobbyist who buys an airgun these days typically buys a cheap big box store springer,  the whole world is full of cheap Chinese B-19 type springers from Crosman In the US, Westlake and SMK in the UK , to other brandings throughout Europe.
America is not in a unique situation, with the majority of airguns in existence these days being cheap junk it seems only airgun hobyists know enough to realize these such a thing as " better ".