The effective .177

[JonnyReb]

  Just a mention that with 3 squirrels hit with the .25 falcon hunter i'm so far not impressed. 2 drops and one loss, both drops were not instant and of course the one squirrel that ran off after being hit makes me feel terrible. I'm comparing these 3 attempts to the 17 or so more or less instant one shot  kills i had with 2 separate .177 guns, a disco shooting 10.5 benjamin hollowpoint(930fps) and a turkish webley that shoots 8.4jsb's(800fps).  Every squirrel taken with those .177 guns resulted in a terminal shot, all headshots and most resulted in a pass through. None of the .25 pellets have passed through as of yet, including 3ft finishing headshots.(25.5 JSB and 20gr. H&N, both roundnose... 25gr@ 700fps, 20gr.@ 800fps)

  I have to say that this proves to me one thing for sure. I'm better off pesting with my pinpoint accurate .177 12ftlb webley than i am slinging giant pellets with a 27ftlb gun i'm less than perfectly accurate with. Point taken

[longislandhunter]

Sound words of wisdom re: pinpoint accuracy.  I have a .177 Beeman R-9 Goldfinger that is so accurate that it's scary.  I can stack pellets right on top of each other all day long if I do my part.  Over the years that rifle has taken more than a few woodchucks while I was out looking for starlings.  The ranges were 25 yards or less but that rifle put each g-hog down flat with one shot for the simple reason that each time I was able to put the pellets dead center in the sweet spot and knock out his nerve center.  It's the only .177 springer that I will use on a g-hog and that's because of it's accuracy.  

Anyway, you very clearly explained the value of shot placement which we all know is the key.  Further proof is our resident airgun hunting legend Ed  aka: Shadow.  He routinely takes quite large possums and raccoons with his .177 cal springers and while his hunting skills of course play a huge part in his success he'll be the first to state that shot placement is the key. 

Jeff

[only1harry]

Well said guys.  I am a little puzzled though.  A 20gr .25 pellet @ 800fps MV from 3ft away should exit all the time, especially on a squirrel.  Was your Falcon Hunter chronied recently?  It is true .25 pellets do not penetrate as deep as .22 or .177 pellets.  A .22 Kodiak or other pellet traveling the same velocity @ 800fps penetrates even larger critters for me beyond 40yds.  .25's are wider and encounter more resistance which limits the penetration, but 800fps should be plenty to produce an exit wound downrange and especially from 3ft away.  I would make sure your gun is still shooting at those velocities.  Regardless of velocity or caliber though, shot placement is the most important for a quick kill.

[jonnnyboy]

My Daddy always said, "I would rather be missed by a .45 than hit with a .22!"  Accuracy, it's what puts meat on the table.  Great post.

joe

[JonnyReb]

  Enjoyed the back up story Jeff, well written and stated as always. I like also knowing that the tiny .177 is used by some of the top hunters on this forum with effective and humane success on bigger critters than one would think possible. I would never have even thought my little 800fps webley would instantly drop so many squirrels without them ever knowing what hit them. You and Ed both have taken much larger game than that. I'm getting more and more confident with that caliber.

 Harry i agree. Also i have chronied the FH everyday since i got it and am quite impressed with the numbers. It is definitely making the power i mentioned earlier(695-710 w/ 25.5gr and 785-800 w/ 20gr.)  I have limited experience with the gun and caliber and only have 3 attemped kills to go off from. On paper the gun is quite accurate, in real world maybe not so much. The one squirrel i took spun on me resulting in a butt shot. The pellet did penetrate through the back leg and up into the body cavity, eventually hitting the lungs. That one went down pretty quick, no pellet exited. The 2nd was an attempted head, neck, ear shot that resulted in the squirrel dropping like he was dead, jumping up and dragged himself off into the woods by the time i reloaded. I feel bad about that one and have no idea what went wrong. This morning i dropped a young gray in the garden. A neck shot and he was definitely still alive. placed a 2nd shot into his head from 3 feet and still he didn't go immediately down. I HATE THAT   neither shot penatrated the other side of his head/neck. I'll try some predator pellets maybe? I know what they do in .177 and .22.  Worth a shot.


 Thanks Joe, buddy, your always there for me   J

[amb5500c]

Jeff, I understand what you're saying and agree with you and the others. But, to me, only 3 attempts doesnt justify getting too down on the gun so soon. Look at it this way. 3 attempts resulted in 2 dead squirrels and 1 that you really dont know for sure what happened. The 1st one was bad luck in that the squirrel moved and got hit in a less than perfect shot, but DIED. The 2nd, unsure but, probably DEAD. And the 3rd, DEAD. Not a bad average so far. I have killed untold numbers of squirrels in my life with shotguns, rim fires, air rifles, and archery. I know this for certain. Squirrels can be TOUGH. Some die right off without even a flinch of the nerves, while others completely amaze you with their will to survive nomatter how badly injured.  So dont lose hope just yet. I know you can shoot like a highly trained sniper. I've seen it in person. You just need to keep refining your skills with that particular gun and experimenting untill you're satisfied one way or the other. I just think its a bit too early to come to a definite conclusion.
Richard

[longislandhunter]

I agree with you Richard.  I hope I didn't come off like I was "bad mouthing" the .25 WFH because I wasn't.  I was just trying to make a comment about the importance and value of shot placement. 

Jeff

[amb5500c]

I agree with you Richard.  I hope I didn't come off like I was "bad mouthing" the .25 WFH because I wasn't.  I was just trying to make a comment about the importance and value of shot placement. 

Jeff

I never thought no such thing Brother. All is well.
Richard

[longislandhunter]

[Bryan Heimann]

perhaps the expected through-penetration isn't happening because the small, light weight squirrels with their tough little hides are getting knocked around instead of punched through.  maybe a critter with a little more mass would be penetrated more easily- raccoons, groundhogs, nutria, etc.

[rsterne]

I'm wondering if part of the equation is the Sectional Density of the pellets?.... If the BC in air is proportional to the SD.... why wouldn't the same thing apply in flesh?.... Basically all four pellets you mentioned are round-nosed (though the Benji HP has a tiny dent in the front)....

10.5 gr. in .177:  SD= 0.048
8.4 gr. in .177:  SD= 0.038
25 gr. in .25 cal: SD= 0.057
20 gr. in .25 cal: SD= 0.046

Based on the SD, I would expect the 10.5 gr. in .177 to have similar penetration to the 20 gr. in .25 cal at similar velocities.... assuming similar pellet hardness / mushrooming.... However, your 10.5 gr. .177 is travelling at 930 fps but the 20 gr. .25 cal is only doing 800 fps.... Just a thought....

I ran the numbers through ChairGun, which has a "Penetration" calculator.... I have NO idea what they base their results on.... but here they are....

10.5 gr. .177 cal @ 930 fps:  4.62"
8.4 gr. .177 cal @ 800 fps: 3.18"
25 gr. .25 cal @ 700 fps: 4.15"
20 gr. .25 cal @ 800 fps: 3.80"
Let's add one.... 21 gr. .25 cal @ 930 fps: 4.62" (same SD and Velocity as the first example - resulting in the same penetration)

ChairGun would predict the two .25 cal pellets to have penetration between the two .177 pellet/velocity combinations you gave.... I added the 21 gr. .25 cal at 930 fps to test my idea that the governing factors are SD and velocity.... and ChairGun confirmed that.... Just something to think about....

Bob

[amb5500c]

Air Hunter, that is another interesting consideration. If a squirrel was held in a fixed position and couldn't be knocked back by the impact, I feel sure that the penetration would increase significantly.
Richard

[rsterne]

While I was posting that.... Air Hunter posted about the Momentum diffference.... That could easily be the remaining difference in the penetration issue.... The much heavier .25 cal pellets would have a lot more Momentum so they could knock the squirrel further, reducing the penetration.... To eliminate that difference, you would have to immobilize all the squirrels so that they couldn't be knocked away from the shot....

The relative Momentum is as follows:

10.5 gr. @ 930 fps = 0.044 lbf-s
8.4 gr. @ 800 fps = 0.030 lbf-s
25 gr. @ 700 fps = 0.078 lbf-s
20 gr. @ 800 fps = 0.071 lbf-s

While it might be scientifically interesting to do a penetration test with the 10.5 gr. .177 @ 930 fps compared to the 20 gr. .25 cal @ 800 fps on an immobilized squirrel.... the results would have little to do with real world performance, unfortunately.... It might explain the observed differences, though....

Bob

[JonnyReb]

 WOW BOB     love the scientific approach and here on the GTA you are that man   Given the data i can't argue a bit with it's results. Airgunners theory about impact makes sense as well, matter of fact the squirrel taken today waith the neck shot WAS knocked off the tree, it was a hard impact for sure, just not as instantly fatal as i would have thought. That was with the 20gr.
 I did see a good bit of penetration with the 25gr, it almost transversed the squirrel. Just didn't kill it as fast as i thought it might.

  Richard i appreciate your post, i won't give up on the gun but will keep practicing with it till i really feel comfortable with it and will try some other, heavier pellets. Funny about the sniper quip, if so, what would that make you oh shooting master

  Don't want anyone to think i'm badmouthing the FH either, it's an impressive beast of a gun and MUST be capable of all thats said of it. Just hope to increase my confidence with it so that if something bigger than a squirrel walks by, i can grab the FH and know it's capable of the job.  J

[rsterne]

I'm guessing the .25 will show it's worth on larger game that isn't knocked of a branch so easily.... with more of the energy going into penetration....

Don't ya love it when theory and practice meet up!?!?!.... I just love knowing WHY things happen the way they do.... 

Bob

[JonnyReb]

  Just a followup, took another gray this morning on his way to the corn, been watching for this particular squirrel as he's done a lot of cutting in the last 4 days. His MO was to come from across the street via oak limbs that interconnect. He wasn't one of my yard squirrels but one of the wild squirrels filling the vacancies in my yard. Took him at only 20-25 feet with the FH using the ftt 20gr.. Was a good shot, sideways through the cheekbone just under the eye. The squirrel stiffened, dropped and did a tiny bit of kicking but he was really DOA. in spite of the close distance however, once again the ftt did not exit. I really have to try some other pellets to gain penetration, still quite surprising to me that in spite of the added inertia of the heavier pellet, and doubling of ftlbs, a 8.4 .177 @800fps(webley) will penetrate a squirrels head most of the time but now can say 3 for 3 that the 20grftt at almost an identical fps(790-800)will not penetrate. Hard to believe that just momentum or resistence is having this effect, but it must be so, i guess theres nothing else to explain it.

  I REALLY need to try some heavier pellets and see if this changes the outcome,  J

[Atchman2]

I know this isn't scientific but it is something that you think about.  I did some video testing shooting pellets at cans and other stuff filled with water. The .177 pellets hit and went through so fast they just made a hole.  When I shot them with the slower .22 pellets the cans exploded! Also when I shot them with a .22 rimfire the same thing happened as the .177 pellets, hole but no explosion.  Can't explain it, but a .177 is a lot of energy in a very small point, where a .25 is a lot of dispersed energy. 

Well it is a new gun and you are still getting used to it too. You'll figure it out. 

[bradyman1]

The difference between a .177 and a .25 is like the difference between a pin and a hammer. The pin will easily go through, but the hammer will destroy what it hits.?? I have taken 2 nutters with my WFH in .25. The pellets did not exit the body but both had major penetration. The first went through the front leg, traversed the body, exited, entered the rear leg, and was found on the opposite side of the rear leg. That was an 18 yard shot. The second was a 10 yard shot and it entered just under the left eye and was found in the opposite side front leg after traversing the body. Both were 1 shot quick kills. I think the above posters are correct about the pellet energy being absorbed by the movement of the squirrel. In my shots the pellet was able to traverse the length of the body not the width of the body. That is probably why I got so much penetration. I got much more penetration than I do with my .22 Titan.

[MountainMan126]

I have no experience with a .25, but reading this I am curious where all pellets used were domed and did not pass through with the increased energy of the WFH, I would try a well designed HP pellet. Try and use that extra fpe to expand and fragment the pellet and see if that provides more lethal results. It may limit accuracy over long range, but it would be worth a try for me .

[DMikeM]

I recently did a penetration test with two B28 rifles both shooting at about 17 fpe at a 3/4 plywood target and a metal 5 gallon paint bucket. all the different weight pellets from the .177 passed through the plywood and the first wall of the paint bucket. The .22 cal were way different story some of the harder pellets like the CPUMs and RWS Super Domes just make it through the plywood while the softer lead would get about half way through or a little more. Shooting the bucket pretty much all the pellets went through the first wall but except the JSB exacts (too soft) but 1 CPUM actually went through both metal walls! So the harder material (metal) gave in to the mass of the .22 more so than the .177 where the softer target (wood) gave up to the .177.
End of this story however is I have taken far more instant kills with the .177 than the .22 and have lost far to many wounded animals with the .22. Never lost one with the .177.