H&N .22 Piledrivers

[bandg]

I really wasn't suggesting that you shoot it that way but it couldn't hurt to try.  I was really trying to get you to check fit into the barrel to see that the pellet is widest at the head and narrower behind that point.  Before you had noted that the pellet would stop mid body when loaded normally but reversed will now drop in to the head.  This shows that even the .22 Piledrivers (at least the ones you have) are widest at the driving band on the dome and narrower near the boat tail.  This is apparently by design since the pellet has to seal in the bore for air to move it down the barrel but still be able to load (and not have too much drag) thus it has the narrow driving (sealing) band and a relatively loose fit at the rear of the pellet.  This seems like it could result in pellet yaw when fired.  I had also sent an email to H&N about possibly adding a rear driving band to stabilize the pellet better and they responded quickly stating that their manufacturing process will not allow such a change.   Maybe NSA slugs will be the way to go for such heavier projectiles.

[mpbby]

No. 

My suggestion to you is to ask HN about the Piledriver .22 diameter issues.  They are usually very friendly, answering quick and - objectively.   

[VaporTrail]

bandg - Oh...lol! Yes...it's exactly as you stated. It has a different diameter at the head, which lends to it being waaay easier to load backwards. Now I wonder if we load it like this, would it eliminate the possible yaw effect? Perhaps you are right...maybe it's time to start looking into the slugs.

mpbby - ah...I see. It appears bandg has beat us both, since he has already been in contact with H&N.


Thanks, guys!

[Habanero69er]

Don't discount trying the 28g Eun Jin, or the 21g Baracuda Match. Both have hard enough lead to penetrate hog skull. Seeing how you're shooting a springer, might be more suited weight to power-wise so that you get a flatter trajectory.
Personally, I'd look for the most accurate pellet first, then worry about weight. Accuracy is king!

[Wayne52]

The .177 EunJin's shot very nice from my DAR177. If I use a slug in any of my .22's it'll be the BBT's that I cast from my NOE mold.  They're extremely accurate from my Airmax Dominator
 and really accurate from my Prod as well.  Very easy casting and I honestly don't sort them cause they fill out in the mold so nicely.  I have the five cavity mold and can cast 1000 of them
in very little time.

                                             

[bandg]

H&N informed me that their manufacturing process would not allow adding the driving ring at the base WITHOUT A GREAT INCREASE IN COST and is not something they would pursue.  Will shooting the Piledriver backwards eliminate the potential yaw?  I surely don't know as it is uncertain if the accuracy issues with the Piledriver pellet is yaw related, twist rate related, or other.  I recall reading one of the reviews (PyramydAir maybe) of the Piledrivers where one person did note that shooting them as a "hollowpoint" (backwards?) improved his accuracy.

I have experimented with removing the boat tail from the pellet and then flaring the resultant base to eliminate the possible yaw.  You still have a very heavy pellet and I did see improvement in group sizes shot through my Condor at 25 yards but it is very difficult to do without damaging the pellet and I haven't found a way to do it reliably without wasting at least 5 or 6 pellets for every one that has turned out usable.  I have ordered NSA slugs in each weight he makes and will be trying those in the near future.

[nielsenammo]

Besides twist rate the other major factor in slugs is the diameter.  A small sizing difference can make a big accuracy change so you should not throw out the possibility that the diameter is not right for your barrel.  I have seen some good results reported from the Piledriver in 17 cal so I think their design is good but not a match for every barrel out there.

Not saying that is issue but something to consider.  When I make slugs I make them for the most common sizes I believe are out there because of the cost to have multiple dies with slight changes to accommodate ALL the barrels would not be cost effective.  I am sure that is the same for H&N, they can only invest so much money into tooling and so they try to make a pellet/slug that works in as many as possible.

[JungleShooter]

If you're looking for HEAVY & HIGH BC pellets beyond the Piledriver there are quite a number to choose from.

You already mentioned the Eun Jin. There is a domed and a pointed version in heavy weight.

The lightest of the heavies are the H&N Baracudas (rebranded sometimes as Crow Magnum) that Habanero69er mentions. They are usually praised all over the web for their good performance (accuracy, BC of 0.036 -- averaging out different published BC numbers).

They are also available with a copper covering – which makes them extra hard (better penetration), and gives them a yet higher BC – which translates directly into higher energy retention at the target (BC of 0.042 or 0.044). ChairGun allows for a neat comparison. They're called Baracuda Power, same weight as the regulars, 21.14gr.

Weightwise next comes the Power Bolt from RWS: torpedo-shaped and pointed. 24.70gr. BC unknown.

H&N has a slug-shaped pellet called the Rabbit Magnum II with 25.31gr (in version 4) with a BC of 0.036.
It comes with a hardening copper coating as well: Rabbit Magnum Power, same weight, but higher BC of 0.039.

JSB has the Straton Jumbo Monster, a barrel-shaped, pointed projectile, at 25.39gr; for the BC I haven’t found trustworthy data.

The Ultra Shock Heavy by JSB is a hollow point with a barrel shaped body. 25.39gr. Because it’s a hollow point the BC is much lower, 0.022.

A third offering by JSB in the same weight is the Exact Jumbo Monster, but with skirt and domed. BC of 0.036. They have the regular Monster and the Monster Redesigned – supposedly for better accuracy and higher BC of 0.039.

JSB's Exact Jumbo Beast is the heaviest of the bunch – 33.95gr, and with a great BC of 0.046.


There are some others, but I don’t have much trust in their quality, due to the brand (no-name), or based on forum posts or high-res photographs of what the pellets actually look like (I attach a pic of the Gamo G-Hammer):
   PDG  |  Destroyer  |  26.00gr  |  ???BC  |  Slug-Shaped
   PDG  |  Bomb  |  26.00gr  |  ???BC  |  Barrel-Shaped
   Gamo  |  G-Hammer  |  27.80/27.76gr  |  0.039BC  |  Pointed Torpedo-Shaped
   Gamo  |  G-Buffalo  |  27.80/27.76gr  |  0.042BC  |  Torpedo-Shaped
   Gamo  |  TS-22  |  21.75gr  |  0.027BC  |  Domed


Fortunately, there are quite a few choices out there! In the end, what is most critical is accuracy. So, HAPPY TESTING your slugs and any other pellet that seems interesting.

If I had the gun with the power as yours, I think I’d try out the JSBs first, those with the high BC, and the Baracuda.

[Habanero69er]

The Eun Jins tend to run bigger in diameter. The Baracuda Match comes in three different sizes. Again, for the type of rifle & it’s power plant, some of the heavyweight pellets mentioned might give a loopy trajectory & may even be too heavy for optimum FPE. PCPs tend to be more efficient with heavier ammo than do springers. But if you find a pellet that is the most accurate and has good heft than that’s great. 😃

[bandg]

Thanks for the information, Nick.  Do you know offhand if your .177 slugs are softer than the Piledrivers?   Seems softer might seal better to the rifled bore.

[VaporTrail]

Habanero69er - Yes, I plan on picking up a tin of both of those. Very good point that you bring up about the power-weight ratio. At some point, heavier pellets will overcome the power of the platform affecting accuracy. I don't know if you caught my earlier response to you, but so far Maggy does pretty well with most of the pellets I give her.

Wayne52 - Those are some mighty fine lookin boolits. You wouldn't be willing to...let me purchase some to try out, would you? I'd be most appreciative.

bandg - that's a shame to hear about that. I suppose I could try and shave some of the band off, but then the problem would be consistency. I don't have a sizer or anything close to it (or perhaps some metal cylinder in the right diameter?). Maybe I'll give your technique a shot and shave down some of them.

nielsenammo - Nick, thanks again for the goodies! I remember JungleShooter saying that there was different diameter PDs...but I haven't found them. Maybe like he said I need to order from outside the US. This weekend I'll be giving your slugs some range time.

JungleShooter - That's a nice list...I'll look into those. Heavy is good, but like Habanero pointed out, I'd like to find the most effective for power to weight ratio. Also just as important (if not a little bit moreso) is the hardness. Soft pellets aren't going to help my piggy adventures. Those copper coated ones seem pretty good...but I remember reading somewhere that the copper compromised the rifling. I guess I'm gonna need to order a tin of copper plated ones too! Yanno, for testing purposes. Honestly! (I doubt the wife will buy that line. lol)

Habanero69er - Aww man...again? Oh well..."dang" the torpedos, full speed ahead!! Your point about power-weight ratio is spot on...so maybe I'll try one more heavy variation (or maybe a couple) and see how the numbers turn out. Range will be within 20 yards (about 12-15, actually), so even if I start dropping down to the low 700s I think I'll be alright. I would like flat trajectory at least for 20 yards.

Awesome info everyone...thank you so much for the replies!

[JungleShooter]

To puncture that piggy head, you’ll need lots of energy at the target.
That energy depends on the answer to two main questions (if I interpret ChairGun’s graphs correctly):

(1) With how much muzzle energy does the pellet leave your gun? With PCP rifles, usually (not always) heavier pellets exit with more energy than lighter pellets. With springers it’s often the other way around. Your chrono will tell you the truth.

(2) The other question is – How much of that energy does Mr. Pellet still have left once he rendezvous with Mrs. Piggy? Here the BC of the pellet is the main factor.

A review of the Piledriver (then made by Prometheus, UK) on AirgunTV illustrates both points. Since I'm a Newbie I can't post links yet, so here's the title on YouTube: "REVIEW: Piledriver high efficiency air gun pellet"

The table below is from that video – the comparison is stunning, at the Piledriver has more energy left at 25 yards, then most of the other pellets had when they exited the muzzle!
(The “Bisley Magnum” is the rebranded H&N Baracuda.)

[VaporTrail]

Yes...that's exactly why I was really wanting to use the PDs for hunting...very good energy retention.