Scope Stops and Gunsmiths

[A.K.A. Tommy Boy]

Lizzie...you could also try a Bullseye ZR Scope Mount. The one in the picture blow is mine and is made for a picatinny rail but they also make them for 11mm. The recoiling action of the shock mounted rails inside the scope mount, absorbs all the recoiling force and the mount itself stays put. It will also protect your scope from recoil damage.  I bought mine from PA for around $55.  If you used one of these, then you would not have to risk drilling a scope stop hole in your R1 rifle.  The mount will rase the height of the scope but allows for the use of a larger objective lens. I have had mine for sometime now and (once I torqued it down correctly) I have not had any problems with it.  The mount works as advertised.    Just another option to look at lizzie.

My Best Wishes to You         -           Tom

[nced]

I recently acquired a vintage R1 in .20 caliber, and I LOVE the gun! (Thank you Geoffrey!)

As most of us know, air rifles in the "magnum" class are scope killers, and besides being killers, they are also scope migratory enablers- haha.

This gun has the capability of being a One-Ragged-Hole classic, as I can tell, having only had it for a week tomorrow, and most of that time, having been out of town for the fun shoot.

The trigger is light and crisp (actually a little lighter than my preference), and she's heavy and solid.
No complaints about the gun at all.

The problem I am having is nothing new to most of us, but seems worse on this gun than most of my others. The scope migrates appreciably and gradually, in spite of having a nice one-piece mount, which I have tightened several times. It still wants to move.

One of the things I like about the old Dianas with the T05 trigger, is the scope rail...it facilitates locking down the scope with minimal effort.

Okay....now to the question-
Can a gunsmith drill scope stop hole(s) on the scope rail without causing any damage to the gun itself?
I've never had any work done by a gunsmith, and I know that they can do so on PB's (I remember the hubs having that done at one time many years ago), but I am also aware that the steel used on air rifles tends to not be quite as hard or tough as that of PB's...at least that is my understanding, based on multiple sources I have read over the years.

Is there something else I am not thinking of that would be a good fix or solution?

I retightened the scope mount down, took it out to shoot just a few shots, and I could already see that is has moved.
Sigh.....

Humm....I haven't owned a HW springer that didn't have stop pin holes. The R1 was based on the HW35 with same diameter but longer receiver and my HW35 had stop pin holes like this.........


If your R1 doesn't have stop pin holes you'll notice that the holes are located in the top of the solid machined & threaded screw in end cap.........
pic of the Beeman R10 (has been called "son of R1") I used to own............

Where the smaller R10 receiver (HW95 size) used a separate bolt on pot metal scope rail with stop pin holes, the R1 stop pin holes were milled directly in the end cap so it seems that a machinist could mill some flat bottomed stop pin holes in the end cap similar to this but.........

[Novagun]

Lizzie, I just remembered that I have a spare Gamo compression tube with rail mounted. The reason it does not move is that apart from the three screws squeezing the rail onto the groves it also has its own stop screw that is threaded into the thin compression tube wall. It is machined so that it does not interfere with the working of the gun. I now recall having to back the screw out to remove the rotary breach block.

[lizzie]

Hmmmmmm. Now i am questioning myself!
Okay....back to square one with this issue. I may be missing something here. Thanks all for your input!

[Novagun]

 I think we have confused you. The short answer to your question is yes you can drill a hole in the top of the trigger block as long as you don't go to deep. To me drilling a hole in the original gun is causing damage but it may not be to you. You will need a flat ended drill to clean out the hole so that a pointed jobber drill does not go to deep. My Weihrauchs have substantial stop holes with flat bottoms.. Check to see if the trigger block has enough depth just in case it is different to the other Weihrauchs and the stop holes have been omitted for that reason.

PS you will need to remove the trigger block to hold it in a vice on the drill press table. Free hand drilling will not be good enough. May be better to get someone with a mill to do it.

[mpbby]

I think you may NOT just transfer the efforts/problem to a stop pin. Most probably, the hole will not resist and it will become oval (to start..).

You need to focus where the problem is now.  Why don't you give a chance to Loctite?

[redtrucker610]

So, you guys are saying you just put loctite down into the dovetail groove, and place the scope mount, essentially "bedded down" into it?

Thats what I did. I cleaned the grooves real well with some rubbing alcohol to make sure I removed all oil. Then just put a few drops of the red locktite on each side in the groove. Mounted the scope and left it sit for a day or two. The scope never moved after that.

[lefteyeshot]

Check out the BKL mounts on PA. They say 3'8" or 11mm. You put the screws in the opposite side to spread it open then put the screws back in the other side to close it. Some guns I've had that come with a weaver mount are this type and stay tight.

[lizzie]

Check out the BKL mounts on PA. They say 3'8" or 11mm. You put the screws in the opposite side to spread it open then put the screws back in the other side to close it. Some guns I've had that come with a weaver mount are this type and stay tight.

that's what I did yesterday,  with one of the new UTG mounts nced mentioned in another thread....probably the same thing. I bet this will work!

[nced]

I think you may NOT just transfer the efforts/problem to a stop pin. Most probably, the hole will not resist and it will become oval (to start..).

You need to focus where the problem is now.  Why don't you give a chance to Loctite?

My Beeman R9 & HW95 stop pin holes were getting deformed by scope mount stop pins like this.........

Matter of fact, since I've been using oring sealed piston caps for years I thought that perhaps the "reduced piston braking" vs the factory seal might be the issue. To test this theory I took an old receiver from the "used parts bin" that didn't have any stop pin hole damage and fitted it with a new HW factory piston seal when reassembling. Nope.....the issue wasn't my "low friction oring seal" because this was the result........


Here is what can happen if the mount stop pin wasn't set deep enough in the receiver stop pin hole.........


In the past I also used the rather pricey BKL one piece mount to prevent damage but it also would slip after a while using the BKL recommended max base screw torque of 35in/lbs.........


My final solution was to make a "sacrificial stop pin hole liner" like this along with an inexpensive (compared to BKL) UTG Universal dovetail to Picatinny adapter............



LOL....the UTG adapter works like the BKL base but it also has stop pins to "help out". I really don't know if the UTG adapter stop pin would deform my HW95 stop pin holes since I'm using a "sacrificial insert" but the one piece base without a separate clamp plate does clamp tightly to the receiver.

Concerning the "LockTite" question.........
I tried this a while back (as well as SuperGlue) and the stuff does work, however I found it hard to remove if needed without scraping inside the shallow HW95/R9 dovetail grooves. Another "solution" I tried that worked was to put a bit of valve grinding compound in the dovetails before mounting the scope base..........

The grit worked find to hold the scope base in place (even the UTG mounts with separate clamp plate) but the grit did wear on the bluing if the mount was repositioned a few times. I guess another "positive" to the valve grinding compound was that the "grit in grease" did create a rust proof coating in the dovetails. Anywhoo....I found it better to simply make a "sacrificial insert" and not mess with "thread lockers".   

[lefteyeshot]

Nice fix, nced!

[A.K.A. Tommy Boy]

Bravo Ed !      Very Good Solution and Nice Fix !          Best Wishes  -  Tom

[lizzie]

Wow Ed! That is a lot of work put into that, and an excellent fix- WOW!
Btw......so far, I really like the UTG mounts you have demonstrated the use of here.

[Verminstalker]

Lizzie,

There are these:



But without a stop hole I don't think they'll be better than what you already have.  Is your scope rail removable?  I'm not familiar with your rifle.

Taso

No- not removable.
The scope rail on the R1's is very similar to dealing with one of the Gamo scope rails.
Slick and smooth as can be, and no stops of any kind cut into the steel, as I have seen on a few guns.

The photo below of the entire gun isn't mind- it's just to give you an idea of what the gun is.
The other two photos, I took a few minutes ago.

Lizzie,
By looking at the dovetail machined into the receiver tube, it appears that you may not be able to drill too far in before going through the other side. That would be an issue and if you have the hole too shallow, the pin will  elongate the hole and ruin the receiver depending on the metal hardness or the pin will shear off the mount. Very delicate & risky procedure, not like drilling & tapping holes for scope mounts on a Mauser 98.

A better option would be to use something similar to the RWS lockdown mount which gives you a lot more clamping area to keep the scope from shifting.

[lizzie]

Thanks Sid! Yesterday, I put on one of the UTG mounts like the ones Ed uses, and will see how that does. I'm betting it will stop the scope creep, and if not, I'll go on to something else, but have decided against the use of a gunsmith.