Experiences you have had on regulating higher FPE .25 Marauders?

[Kinetic45^]

I would like to find out the experiences of those who put regulators in 50+ FPE .25 Marauders?  I am thinking about installing a Huma regulator in my hog hunting gun to flatten out the shot string.
Now I should note that I am not looking for a long shot string, 16 shots is more than enough but 24 would be super.  It's hunting, it is rare for me to fire more than 1 to 2 shots per hog but I have had instances of several encounters in a day and shot 14 shots one hunting day (5 hogs = some excellent smoked sausage filling my & friends freezers!).  But I want to have a shot string for 24 shots / 3 magazines if I could.  And YES, I could tune for more FPE but 50 to 54# works quite well for small 150 pound hogs and accuracy (which means consistency shot to shot) is more important.  Most people use regulators for increasing their shot string at low FPE, hence the question on results of regulating for higher, let's say medium FPE levels like 50/54.

I posted my mods earlier https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=141370.0

My problem is I had a great tune that averaged a spread of 14 FPS with the Hill valve and hammer and Travis's TSS, Hill HFTP which is around .2 and my barrel port .187 for 24 shots.
But I changed to the Jefferson aluminum tube and their lightweight MDS 'superhammer' (which is actually very close to the same weight as the Hill Al hammer) and the tune is gone.
Don't get me wrong, the weight reduction 'feel' is amazing and I will not go back to a steel tube for this rifle (my bottle 25 Marauder is a target rifle and will stay 'heavy').

Now, with the new configuration I am setting for 860 FPS with JSB 33.93 MkII and I am getting a spread of 45 FPS and groups are unacceptable.  Why I keep questioning, this should not happen?
Note: Have tried these pellets from 800 FPS to 910 FPS but best accuracy is at 850 to 860.  Unfortunately, this particular barrel leads up FAST at the choke shooting slugs and the accuracy is disappointing or I would be shooting those.  {I am having Jim at WAR build me a slug only, .25/120 FPE, 'no pellet' rifle that I am really looking forward to!}

So, if I add a Huma regulator, can I get a fairly flat curve based on your ACTUAL/real experiences on your .25, modified valve, regulated, Marauder?
Wondering if the 170 bar max set point will be high enough too?  Although I think from what I read on other threads 160 bar might give me the FPS/FPE I want?

[triggertreat]

It certainly is doable.





I use to use the Hill valve with 6lb valve spring and HFTP in my .25 cal.  I am now ported at .220" using a custom breech and .25" aluminum TP made by Travis.


I use the Huma Standard .25 cal regulator and a Hill gauge port.  If I had your barrel I would be wanting the .30 cal regulator for more plenum space.  You can pull the standard reg without having to remove the gauge which is convenient when adjusting the reg a lot, which I have done.


I don't have any trouble hitting 56 FPE for three mags, but I do fill to 3200 on my steel tube, base on my fill gauge.  The gun gauge reads 3000.  You would need to set your reg around approximately 2100 psi for 50 FPE and set the TSS up with at least a .020" hammer gap off of the valve pin to avoid wasting air.  Now that both our ports are enlarged, we don't really have much choice in regulating if we want a tight ES.  You could do the Bstaley O-ring mod and do well on ES that way too.  I prefer a HF valve (SS Valve), LW MDS hammer, Light valve spring, hammer gap, and regulator to control the ES.


Our barrels are different, but I just came off a two week hunt and this .25 with a GM barrel at 56 FPE is extremely accurate at 50 to 100 yards.  I am still pumped at the multiple shots I made with it at the longer ranges and at 56 FPE, the pellet arrives quickly and hits with authority.  We did collect a hog, but used a HMR 17 Super mag for that.  I never got another chance to take a hog with the Synrod.  Maybe next time.  I found my barrel is accurate up to 870 FPS with the MKIIs so I tuned it just shy of that and it really shines now.

I am not sure how the new tube would cause ES issues.  You might take a look at how freely the hammer slides in the tube.  It needs to slide with very little friction.  I can just tilt my gun slightly and the hammer will slide from end to end easily.  Also, make sure the springs are not hanging up on each other or on either end when cocking.  I battled with that for a spell on mine until I figured out that was happening intermittently.

[Motorhead]

Per a PM request ...
Big power in a REGULATED .25 cal M-rod needed MORE plenum than the one piece reg assemblies provide.  The valves throat size, transfer path size all the way to barrel needs to be .200" which is tough to get out of a stock valve & why the WAR valve was getting used in many instances.

This is JMO and while many have been able to get decent power, NONE i know of happened w/o serious modification or specialty parts.

In the end whats always been said still rings true ..... Is that REGULATION ( for most applications ) is the best in the realm of Low to Mid power uses.
There are High Power regulated guns, but there specifically made for the task.

Also don't forget PRESSURE is ENERGY .... less pressure you have lower become the potential energy you can extract from it.

Scott

[Kinetic45^]

Thanks to both TriggerTreat and Motorhead for the replys.

I have decided to order a Huma XXL w/ gage port and also change my ART TSS to the Jefferson SSG.

Question, I looked / searched the GTA site and did quite a bit of Google searching for a good shot string analyzer like the one you have pictured, do you know where I can download it?
There are several available 'here n there' I have tried but still not one like you are showing.
I found spclark77's training videos on the 'Shot String Analyzer' on YouTube and did Google searching but the only thing that comes up is you guys using it.
Last time I ran into a similar situation the guy had died.

[PCPhack]

I have had a good experience with higher power and using a .30 oversized Huma regulator. In the end, chasing even higher power regulated, has led me to a very custom built bottled marauder, with externally adjustable WAR regulator. You can barely even call it a Marauder though, as almost the whole thing is built with custom parts, and it's still not quite ready.

[kkarmical]

Thanks to both TriggerTreat and Motorhead for the replys.

I have decided to order a Huma XXL w/ gage port and also change my ART TSS to the Jefferson SSG.

Question, I looked / searched the GTA site and did quite a bit of Google searching for a good shot string analyzer like the one you have pictured, do you know where I can download it?
There are several available 'here n there' I have tried but still not one like you are showing.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1EBm-pOyrzbe_7awzH0Piii4KYHhR8Fev


I think this is the one he using
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=130684.20


Mine is regulated, balanced valve, tss & ssg, audrius ref, still trying to figure out my best tune but I stopped at 55fpe and am just shooting it now, but need pick up a few more parts, going to upgrade to huma ref, thinking of lightweight air cylinder, but always talk myself out of it.  I want to also send my gun to Travis and have ported like Keith's.

[AlanMcD]

I have my Gen 1 .25 cal running with a Huma reg at ~2100 psi with an XXL .30 tuning plenum up against a hogged out gauge port (which gives me a bout 8.5 ccs vs the ~2.5 in a stock gauge port) for a total of ~42 ccs of plenum space including the valve.  The gun has the new JSA SS valve with 0.190" ports through to the barrel, a modified Gen I bolt that does not block any port area, a 24 gram hammer, and an original version of the TSS.  The TSS has a 6 lb main spring with a gap to the hammer, and a stiff 15 lb inner spring that I crank in for max power with the 34 grain JSBs at an average of 845 fps, but still no hammer bounce (I can back it out and shoot 25.4s at about 910, but I will continue to search for a spring combo that will let me drop the speed on the 25.4s down another 15 fps or so for improved accuracy).  It is all set up in a light weight tube that is 3" longer than stock length.

With this set up (and minimal tuning time with it) I am getting 24 shots at an average of just under 54 FPE, but it falls off fast after shot #24.  I have actually been putting more time into another Marauder (a .22 cal) that I am trying to get set set up for my father, but even with the minimal time I put into the .25 it is running at a good power level with efficiency in the 1.3 - 1.4 FPE / CI range.  I expect it will get better as I work on it.

I did have it running the same way in the stock tube and it got about 18 good shots at this power level, so your 16 shot minimum goal is clearly achievable without the added length - the extra 3" got me another 5 or 6 shots at this power level.

It is real easy to hog out a stock gauge port with a Dremel and a carbide cutting bit, or you could order a high flow one from Hill if you wanted to . . .

[Kinetic45^]

I want to also send my gun to Travis and have ported like Keith's.

And thanks for the link to the spreadsheet, I've got it!

I do not want to take work away from Travis because he is a master and we need him to keep working designing amazing improvements {and them mfg n selling them} we can them use to mod our pneumatic toys for better performance and accuracy, but some tasks are at our novice level.  I learned that here at GTA.  [What a DIFFERENCE his Cobra valve makes!  Have one in my WARP]
So please forgive me but I just wanted to tell how I DIY my own barrel port after 24 years of air gun shooting when before I had always paid someone else to do my mods and tuning. Doing this for the very first time and it felt D good!

I was installing the new JSAR lightweight air tube a couple weeks ago and:
I had read all the GTA posts on drilling out the barrel port and said "Barrels are not that expensive, I'm going for it!"
1.  Turned down a 5/16 hardwood dowel to tightly fit in the chamber (stub in a drill press and with a file) so it had to be tapped in.
2.  found the drill that exactly fit the existing hole and mounted it upside down in drill chuck (harbor freight benchtop drill for 65$)
3.  put the barrel in the cheap 4" vise that came with the drill press, using the flats on the top of the barrel that were now on the underside in the vise and a piece of drill rod, held it into the flat and leveled by eye to match the drill table n vise top level/lines and tightened.
4.  Then moved vise around until the backwards drill end set down into the existing barrel hole.  Used a couple of 4" vise grip locking C clamps to immobilize the vise.
5.  I then swapped out the backwards drill for the correct size (in this case a .187) and drilled the hole.  You don't go too deep because the wood helps you control depth.
6.  Remove the barrel from the vise and remove the wood plug.  I used a small Cratex 1/4" cylinder polishing tool in a Dremel to GENTLY at LOW speed remove the tiny burr around the hole, taking care to not oblong the chamber.  Used a small conical Cratex to polish the hole and tiny radius on edges.
7.  Reassembled and enjoyed the new power!

Speaking of JSAR - I do not like the Teryx conversion but saw on a YouTube video that Travis has made a .30 bottle Mrod with collapsible AR buttstock that I would buy in a heartbeat if they were producing them!  And Texas has just passed legal deer hunting with .30 and above...

[kkarmical]

I'm already ported to .180 (thanks Motorhead), I want to open it all the way up and get Travis to set my gun up the way Keith has his at .220, and being as close to him as I am, I'd much rather just have him set me up, when I can catch up to him.  CA Trout opener, maybe I'll take an extra day off work and head up to fish a couple days in rivers close to his neck of the woods, and drop my gun off to him, then have him mail it to me when he's finished, or give me another excuse to do more fishing...

[triggertreat]

Thanks for your help with the free spreadsheet link Ken.  I built that spreadsheet to share on the forums.  I do have my personal spreadsheet that is a bit more complex so my posted spreadsheets may look a little different at times, but it uses the same calculations and formulas as the forum version.


Travis will need your breach and valve for the custom port work and also the barrel unless you do it yourself which I don't recommend.  The air tube will also need to be modified to accept the large TP.  I would get a quote first and go from there.  Just keep in mind that every new valve that comes out in the future will need custom work along with any new breach.

[Kinetic45^]

Checked with Hill and the .25 valve they sold me back then has a .204 exhaust port.
And I have the Hill opened up gauge port so I believe the best choice is a .30XXL Huma regulator with a 55mm spacer un-ported, and use the Hill gauge port to get the plenum size needed.

I am waiting for a reply from Jeff at Trenier who is checking with Huma on the cc of the 55mm spacer.

Also, Hill said that if regulator creeped and valve seat was exposed to 3200 it would be OK. Of course I would NOT be shooting at that pressure as I get best performance and regulator would be set at 2200. I am just saying what valve seat might be exposed to if there was creep and before pressure was bled off, so no concern with valve lock either.

Progress staggers on...

UPDATE;  For those who read this thread and want to duplicate the build, then can't find the .30 XXL Huma regulator listed on parts suppliers catalogues under the Benjamin category (because Benjamin does not currently MAKE a .30, right?)...
find it under:  Hatsan BT65 Carnivore .30 cal!
{seems Huma is somewhat close mouthed about this crossover usage}

[PCPhack]

I had that setup with the xxl Huma .30 along with the Hill hogged out gauge block, and SS valve with full .1875 porting. I want to say that my FPE was topping out around 65 with 43 grain pellets (and more than 8 shots), if I recall correctly.

[AlanMcD]

Just to make sure everyone understands, all the Huma M-Rod regulators use the same regulator and attach different plenums to them for different uses.  I bought the .30 cal XXL plenum to try in my .25 cal and it is very long at 85mm in overall length, not 55mm.  And of course that is just the plenum - it is even longer with the regulator screwed into it.

I have various plenums from having multiple regulators, and posted the water capacity in ccs (measured with a graduated cylinder) and some other info all in this post not that long ago: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=140112.msg1412302#msg1412302

[Kinetic45^]

Shout out for Trenier Outdoor who set me up with the Huma regulator and some other filling hoses n fittings I needed in my assortment box.
Good customer service on the phone to answer my questions and quick out the door shipping and I will be using him again.

[KnifeMaker]

+1 on Trenier Outdoors and Jeff!   

wonderful customer service, and ultra fast shipping/

Now have two Huma Reg's I bought from them, and Hubb of Huma has just sent me a .30 Plenum for testing in the .25 Rainstorm II.

Don't know how long shipping will take. It's a LONG way. LOL 

Knife