Question about 12 fpe pcp rifles

[elh0102]

I have a few very nice air rifles. My only spring gun is an HW97 in .177 with 12 fpe Vortek kit. My PCP rifles inculde a Daystate Regal XL .22, and two RAW HM1000 rifles, in .22 and .177.  They all shoot great. My experience with the 12 fpe spring gun has proven to me, the American love of power and speed is not necessarily justified. I know that Daystate and Air Arms make Hunter Class FT rifles in 12 fpe versions. These appeal to me, as the shot count would be high enough that I could forgo bringing the air tank along for most trips to the plinking or target range. I would appreciate any input from folks who might have such rifles, and information about sales outlets. 

[ray1377]

I don't have a Daystate or an AirArms but I do have a modified Crosman 2240 that's running a .13cu.in. HPA regulated tank with an output pressure of 900 psi. It is .177 caliber and with 7.9 grain pellets does right around 10.7 ft/lbs. It gets a ton of shots per fill and has taken rabbits with head shots well past 40 yards. I agree that the "more is better" theme when it comes to airguns is really not needed and is just a selling point for those who don't know any better. I would rather have an accurate airgun that shoots less than 800 fps than one that goes well over 1000 fps and never hits the same place twice.
I need to know I can trust my airgun to hit where I'm aiming each and every shot to be confident when hunting. I wish more folks would understand that you can do alot with 12 ft/lbs or less.

Ray

[Rob in NC]

I have several PCP's that I'm running at 12fpe.  I do like the ability to dial up if need be, but unless wind is an issue, I tend to find 12fpe in .177 is plenty for what I do.  ...and as you've mentioned, the shot count is a plus.
Not sure what else to say regarding except you are certainly not alone in your enjoyment of the lower powered guns.

[Nod]

I'm just the opposite, I have a .25 cal Maruader and I want the highest FPE I can get. But, I use mine for pest control so I want a clean kill. I'm at 45 fpe now and working on getting that up. I understand the want of a long shot count but I'm willing to sacrifice that for power.

[Ribbonstone]

For a .177, 12 foot pounds is a pretty good energy level for most folks everyday shooting/practice sessions.

Do believe in power and larger clibers where needed, but when it's not needed it just complicates a practice session with lower shot counts (less time actually shooting), more noise,  a heavier safe backstop.

For the same reasons that a tool box is not full of nothing but hammers, your airgun collection should also be geared to  a wider range of choices.

[WildCJ5]

i have both and shoot fieldtarget at 12. I also have a BAM50 that I turned down to shoot 10.3 jsb pellets at just under 500fps. This makes for about as close to zero noise as I can get. For a backyard plinking where all the distances are known it’s great, it is just enough oomph to reset the Gamo fieldtargets.

[LDP]

I'm just the opposite, I have a .25 cal Maruader and I want the highest FPE I can get. But, I use mine for pest control so I want a clean kill. I'm at 45 fpe now and working on getting that up. I understand the want of a long shot count but I'm willing to sacrifice that for power.

What pests are you trying to eliminate where you need 43 fpe and more for a clean kill? Everything up to the size of coons can be cleanly killed with 12 - 15 fpe and many do it with sub 12 fpe with no issue. Shot placement is the key to clean kills not over power.

I have a couple pcp that I have tuned for lower power. The benefit is huge shot counts and almost a completely silent shot. When you have a good ldc on a 12 fpe pcp you really do get mouse fart quiet. In many of my videos where I am pesting starlings and sparrows people post comments about the shots saying it looks like I was using a .25 or high power .22 airgun. The slow motion video shows just how hard a .177 shooting at 10 fpe really hits sparrows and starlings when shot placement is good. I prefer 10 - 15 fpe for bird pesting out to 40 - 50 yds if conditions are not real windy. If I need a completely silent shot on even a coon sized pest at night out to 25 yds I will grab my S510 .22 thats tuned for 15 fpe. The S510 is dead silent and puts the pellets into a pellet sized hole at 25 yds so its perfect for that type of shot.

[Ribbonstone]

It makes more sense in .177 than anything larger.  decent BC pellet at, like the 8.4 gr. JSB at 800fps, works out (over moderate distances) a lot better than .22'a13.5gr. at 630fps.


As for the M-rod .25.  Human senses do not seem to be able to differentiate between a 10% change.  So if the energy is 45, it's going to have to get to 50 (or drop to 40) befor you really see a human-noticeable change.

Not that you cannot show a small difference when bench-rest/lab testig controlled conditions and notice a 5% difference, but in the "real world" free-form-hunting, it takers about 10% difference in trajectory/energy/accuracy before your mind starts thinking "this be better".

[terry1001]

Here in the UK we don't get the options that you have in the USA as we need a licence to own anything over 12 fpe. On small quarry such as rabbits and pigeon our rifles are effective out to 50 yards or so and it's accuracy that fails before energy for head shots. Body shots aren't normally taken. As others have said you will get a higher shot count and less noise which helps as the UK is quite densely populated and keeping a low profile isn't a bad thing. A lot of vermin shooting is done in and around buildings where high power is likely to cause damage, some shooters will use lower powered rifles inside barns etc where shots can be taken at 10 - 15 yards at rats or maybe pigeon sitting on roof beams.
Higher power is more useful on larger quarry but it's not likely to be used here as a .22lr or centrefire rifle would be more efficient and, for larger game, the only type that would be permitted.

[Nod]

I'm just the opposite, I have a .25 cal Maruader and I want the highest FPE I can get. But, I use mine for pest control so I want a clean kill. I'm at 45 fpe now and working on getting that up. I understand the want of a long shot count but I'm willing to sacrifice that for power.

What pests are you trying to eliminate where you need 43 fpe and more for a clean kill? Everything up to the size of coons can be cleanly killed with 12 - 15 fpe and many do it with sub 12 fpe with no issue. Shot placement is the key to clean kills not over power.

I have a couple pcp that I have tuned for lower power. The benefit is huge shot counts and almost a completely silent shot. When you have a good ldc on a 12 fpe pcp you really do get mouse fart quiet. In many of my videos where I am pesting starlings and sparrows people post comments about the shots saying it looks like I was using a .25 or high power .22 airgun. The slow motion video shows just how hard a .177 shooting at 10 fpe really hits sparrows and starlings when shot placement is good. I prefer 10 - 15 fpe for bird pesting out to 40 - 50 yds if conditions are not real windy. If I need a completely silent shot on even a coon sized pest at night out to 25 yds I will grab my S510 .22 thats tuned for 15 fpe. The S510 is dead silent and puts the pellets into a pellet sized hole at 25 yds so its perfect for that type of shot.

99% of my kills are rabbits @ 30-40 yds. With my PCP I get a +/-  1/4" trajectory so shot placement isn't a problem. I just like  a lot of power. Up until last year when I bought the Marauder, I used my FWB 124 .177 & my D34 .22 to do the job. Never had a problem getting it done with either one of those. Before I got my air rifles, I used my Ruger .357 and my .22 PB for the task. As far as quiet goes the PCP is very quiet. I've shot rabbits while my neighbor was standing 40 feet away and didn't hear the shot. I just like the power !!  To each his own.

[n2omike]

Air guns are definitely guns of PRECISION.  Virtually none of them have the power of a lowly .22LR.  If a small animal has either a .177 or .25 pellet go through its brain, it's going to die.  Trading accuracy for power is always a bad trade for these guns.

THAT being said...  Have you ever held a .177 pellet next to a .25?  The difference is gargantuan!  It's like comparing a .22LR to a 40 S&W!  Yea, both will kill a person, but all else being equal...  not very many people are going to choose to use a .22LR for self defense. 

I have .177, .22 and .25 air rifles.  For hunting, there's no comparison between a .177 and .25.  I rarely even shoot anything with the .22 anymore.  The .25 gets all the hunting action.  It's simply far more devastating, and anchors far more prey in its tracks than the others.  Fewer fly-offs, and crawl offs.  Plus, hearing the THWACK of the pellet hitting its target is very satisfying.   

If there is no trade-off in accuracy...  it's a no-brainer to use the larger caliber.  Plus, they offer far better downrange power and ballistics. 

[Mod90]

I have .177, .22 and .25 air rifles.  For hunting, there's no comparison between a .177 and .25. .

There are no comparisons to be made there, but they both do indeed each have their merits.
The .25 will always create a larger wound channel, allowing a slightly misplaced shot to still be somewhat effective for body shots & allowing the animal to bleed out faster, whereas a heavy .177 will give greater penetration & go through bone easier, which is better for taking brain shots on tougher animals. When shooting both at similar energy levels & using pellets with a BC as close as possible to each other, the .177 will penetrate deeper.

Each has their merits, but don't discount the .177, it will surprise you what a little extra penetration can accomplish.

[Ribbonstone]

OK...have tried this now 4 times....which is due to JSB for making so nearly the same weight pellets in different calibers.

Can have 13.4gr-13.5gr. in .177/5mm/ and 22.

run them at the same speed, you get the same energy.  TOTALLY, agree, could well run them at different speeds for different energy levels.  But if you want to keep "same-same" with only one variable in a test, you'd run the same weight at the same speed for the same energy, with just ONE variable to test (DIAMETER).

Basically NOTHING different...same weight, same speed, same energy, same pellet shape (RN)..all three calibers run one hunting season at 12ish foot pounds, then at another hunting season at 20 foot pounds.






Can have 21-22.5gre. in 5mm (the old EunJins), .22, and 25caliber and run the test again at something like 40-50 foot pounds.


My personal hunting experience for these tests during hunting seasons:

1. Pellet transitioned  the "off switch" (heart/brain)= no real difference...they fell down dead.  (OK...know our anatomy, the heart may not be where you expect it to be...so once you kill a critter, dissect it and figure out where the heart/larg high pressure systems actually are.  And the "brain" is not always a head shot...it's the upper section (with sloped bone guarding it) above and behind the eyes.).

2. Almost right: If you are close to the off switch, bigger/fatter pellets DO SEEM to help.

3. Away from the "off switch' and they all run away.  Does sseem like the ones with the bigger holes that didn't hit the "off switch" don't run as far, but recovery is more a matter of the lay of the land tha what smacked them in the "guts".

Just a desenting view....the guy who will ONLY take shots for the "off swich" with a .177 will probably gatheras much game as any other caliber.


NOW big pellet shooters don't take this wrong.  When I go out to shoot somthing big (like a raccon or opposum), I will take a bigger caliber/hihger energy.heaveir pellet to do it.  Thats a matter of a thick critter needing the higher SD of a heavy/long pellet....buyt not where I intend to place that pellet to trasect the "good bits".

So it may just be me...but the three things I folow for small game killing are these:

1. With enough energy/SD, can pretty well predict ther penetration.
2. Put the pellet though the "off swich" and the critter falls down dead.
3. Take a shot outside the KNOWN BY TESTING accuracry-vs. of-swirch RATIO,are always domed to the one that run-ff and go away (likly to die a week or two later from long suffering infection).

[GeraldnGa.]

  Hmmmm: In 1988; all that I remember being available Were English made Sub-12 fp air rifles... My new [at that time =Expensive!] GC-2 included both .177 and .22 barrels. [11.9 ft. lbs.] I began shooting Field Target at AA. Used the .22 only 1 time=Too much trajectory!
    Cant has a Big influence on the target; as well as wind. [The lower the power; the more influence that Cant and Wind affect the pellet=Very Important!]
     Being American; and "Can't have Too Much Power!" [At that time....] I proceeded to tear Everything down; attempted to: reengineer/modify/soup-up/ect. FOR MORE POWER! Most of the time; was a waste of time/effort/materials/money. Most of the time: it was a "Trade-off" usually, smoothness for power. Example: GC-2 gained power/lost trigger smoothness. [and less shots per fill]
     Other than just cleaning the barrel; my GC-2 needed nothing no "blue printing" needed. [unlike my new Nova Freedom] just Air/pellets/shooting.
     If I had just shot my rifles More [and "tinkered less..] I would have  a Big Box of Trophies, instead of just a few.
             Later, Gerald

[n2omike]

OK...have tried this now 4 times....which is due to JSB for making so nearly the same weight pellets in different calibers.

Can have 13.4gr-13.5gr. in .177/5mm/ and 22.

run them at the same speed, you get the same energy.  TOTALLY, agree, could well run them at different speeds for different energy levels.  But if you want to keep "same-same" with only one variable in a test, you'd run the same weight at the same speed for the same energy, with just ONE variable to test (DIAMETER).

I'm not handicapping myself to running a .177 and .22 and a .25 AT THE SAME ENERGY.  My guns will shoot all the calibers at around the same speed...  so naturally, the bigger guns are more powerful...  and are the ones I pick up when I want to shoot something. 

[vanTeunenbroek]

I love my 12ft/lb pcp's but only run them at that power because HFT/FT competition doesn't allow more..
Only have the cz's .177 running at 12ft/lb at the moment but in the process of converting one of the .20 rapids to HFT spec.
The cz can easily be set to 20ft/lbs but shotcount is nearly cut in half and noise goes up considerably.
Up to 50yard there shouldn't be much to gain accuracy wise by adding power sometimes your rifle could even become less accurate because of the harsher shotcycle and additional muzzle flip/recoil.
I usually tune for the optimal speed for my barrel's favorite pellet regardless of power.
Only when rules require I would tune for a specific power level.
If your platform makes more power,go up in caliber and maintain optimal speed with proper ammo instead of using mega heavy pellets or going supersonic.
The amount of quarry taken in the UK with sub 12ft/lbs should be sufficient proof for the usability of a 12ft/lb air rifle in the field.

[archellas]

Yes, this is America! We want EVERYTHING bigger! And more powerful! It's just the way we are.

I have watched a plethora of UK hunting vids with clean kills at 40-50 yards (even some further) with under 12fpe guns. They do just fine. I am in agreement with most people here, about better shot placement and count, rather than speed and power.
I do not plan to stop a car with my pellet rifle, or shoot hogs. Some people might, which is fine.
Some air guns do over 200 fpe for two or three shots, which is enough for fair - big size game. I only shoot .22 at short ranges, so 20fpe is WAAAAY enough for me. As long as I can hit my target EVERYTIME. And many more time after that.
I own four PCPs with power up to 40fpe, and now I am starting to tune them down for more count and accuracy. My Gauntlet with a 23ci tank will yield over 140 shots at mid 800 fps for 25 fpe of power. But it puts them all in the same hole I aim for. I am about to cut back to 800 fps for over 200 shots!
My bottle Prod averages 15 fpe (almost anything I feed it from 13.5-16gr pellets, and will make one hole for over 120 shots! Avg speed 650-750 (depending on pellet).

It's funny, that we still quest for 5.7 liter and 6+ liter cars, and yet our speed limit is 30-70mph, whereas in Europe they buy <1 liter to 1.6 liter cars and get to go over 100mph! Same thing on our airguns.

To each his own! This was just my 2 cents worth (and THAT is all it's worth)

Cheers

[Ribbonstone]

No comparison betwqeen .177/22/25? 

Depends on what you are comparing.

If you are comparing weight and muzzle energy, then can start a 20 to 21 gr. pellet in ANY of the three calibers at the same speed, same energy, and then compare.

Could compare DIFFERENT weights at the same velocity, which would produce different energy outputs

Could compare different weights./brands/BC's over a wide range of weights/ enetgy levels and compare.


Onbject of the orginal post was 12 foot pound rifles.

So, KEEPING TO THE 12 FOOT POUND THEME,  which would you rather have for general use, Does not matter for this discussion how much MORE a particualr rifle. or caliber, or weight pellet can get, it's a 12 foot pound question.
 

YES...I DO AGREE..it's a slam-fest for the .22's and .25's potnential....but the questiopn was ablout 12 foot pound rifles.


.177 = 8gr @ 820 fps

.22 = 14.3gr. @ 610fps

.25 = 20gr. @ 515fps

[n2omike]

No comparison betwqeen .177/22/25? 

.177 = 8gr @ 820 fps

.22 = 14.3gr. @ 610fps

.25 = 20gr. @ 515fps

Of course, limited to a measly 12 FPE, the .177 is going to be better. 
I'm just glad we don't live in a country that is as oppressed as some of our air gunning brothers! 
 

[Ribbonstone]

So maybe there is some sense to this. 

For about 90% of all the backyard/practice shooting I will do on a nearly daily basis, 8gr. at +800fps will cover it easily.  Target holes will still cluster nicely, paintballs will splatter, spinners will spin (although won't spin as many times), pest birds will die, and  beer bottle caps will "zing" off into the distance.

I would NOT want every PCP to be a 12 foot pound .177...I'd not want every PCP to be a +50 foot pound hammer....to each it's own use, but for quiet/long shot count use in back yard situations, a 12 foot pound .22 makes sense to me.