Dissassembling an old Trail NP XL1100

[unionrdr]

Lug brace? The metal parts around that threaded trigger spacer/bolt? Too much lube? Sounds like this is the last rifle I'm doing if I'm doing that bad. I'll just finish what I've got left and call it a day then.

[RobertMcC]

Videos are way too long. Only time I watch long videos, is for back ground noise.

But there is way too much fail, like other said. Way too much lube, un padded vise. Using a maul to tap in the piston, It should slide in with some force but not alot. I use a wooden down, and can tap in with my palm of my hand. If not something not right and shouldn't be trying to force it in.

[Privateer]

Sounds like this is the last rifle I'm doing if I'm doing that bad. I'll just finish what I've got left and c all it a day then.

Everyone is just giving you good advice Leonard. That's how all of us learned when we started tuning our AG's.
I spent months reading and PM-ing several members before I self tuned my Hatsan 125.
I used a bit to much moly on that first job. But I learned something! That's always a good thing.
I used a lot of 'ghetto' tricks at first. They work and for most there's no need to get deeper into the hole.
I'm still trying to see if this hole has a bottom. Well, that's what my wife says anyway.
 
Bought a lathe and other tooling and STILL haven't found the bottom!

[SteveP-52]

These guys aren't criticizing you, they really are trying to help. Ask any of them and they'll all tell you they tore down and tuned any number of their own rifles before they ever tuned one for someone else and more than a few of them only tune their own guns and won't for anyone else. Every one of them will also tell you they made their share of mistakes along the way and learned from every one of them to get better at tuning.
Personally, I tore down and tuned, tweaked and modified a dozen of my own rifles and screwed up 2 of them in the process before I ever offered to rebuild gendoc's Webley Valuemax .20 caliber and even for the fact of having just finished redoing 2 of my own between fully tuning one and keeping it a springer and a total conversion to gas ram of a second, still worried every step of the way that I might miss something or do something wrong while working on his. You have no idea how big a sigh of relief I let loose when he finally posted after getting it back and shooting it to say great job and he was beyond satisfied with everything I'd done.
Tuning isn't easy and there's a lot more to it than just tearing a rifle apart, cleaning everything, slapping a new piston seal and some moly on and putting it back together, but you have the benefit of belonging to one of the biggest airgun resources on the internet being a member of GTA. Everything I learned about tuning, I learned right here on GTA by reading for hours, asking questions, looking at posted pics and asking more questions while I had my own rifles apart.
Yes, you can learn a few things about tuning on YouTube, but you can learn far, far more by reading right here on GTA and one of the best ways to get better is to tune a few of your own rifles just because, when it's your own personal rifle on the line, you're going to want to know every last thing about it, how to make it better than when you started and most definitely the things to be careful of to not screw it up.

[unionrdr]

I appreciate all the help, but it's sounding like I've done everything backwards? Removing 50% of the lube is easy. And I didn't tap the piston that hard. But that new seal from the Australian guy is very firm, even with a good amount of moly paste. But In my own defense, I'm 2nd generation Ford, Foundry, machining, assembly, cold and hot test, repair, foreman...even learned to fix the huge automation machines. Big and dangerous. Race mechanic, regular mechanic that tested 5th in Ohio out of 175,000 auto tech students. That said, I do enjoy learning more mechanical stuff. But these things are far simpler than all those machines. It's not going to blow or any of that. Besides being some simple physics. But, again, thanks for all the help and what not.
  Also, I wanted to pass on a conversation I had with Crosman today. The barrel shrouds on the Trails are powder coated black. Figured as much when B/C bluing/rust remover didn't phase it. They are also aluminum alloy. So aluminum black won't work. But the bluing/rust remover does work on the action tube, cap, and breech. So I'll touch up the bluing on those parts. And the vice did little or no appreciable damage. Kind of surprising, kind of not, seeing as how it didn't grip tightly? I just forgot the 3" patches I was using for padding lying there. Started back in on the Crosman 760 variant 1 in the meantime. Waiting for retiree payday.

[Privateer]

You don't need to defend yourself Leonard.
But remember. AG's are not Fords! Nor are they Race Engines or the likes.
A Brain Surgeon could claim his skills but in the world of AG's? Not gonna matter!
Rocker1 has a back ground that would blow you away if he shared it with you! He mentored with Gene to learn AG's!
I'd suspect he'd tell you that all his past only assisted to a point. He tells me all the time that my past only applies to a point.
And he is right! Not only right but proven right time and time again. I don't think he will ever do a Video (To ugly and talks funny) but he is the Guy I go to for advise.
You are getting the very BEST advise right here and now! Not that We want to shut you down. We want to assist you in getting better! If personal pride is your Goal? What do you have to lose at this point in time?

[RobertMcC]

I appreciate all the help, but it's sounding like I've done everything backwards? Removing 50% of the lube is easy. And I didn't tap the piston that hard. But that new seal from the Australian guy is very firm, even with a good amount of moly paste. But In my own defense, I'm 2nd generation Ford, Foundry, machining, assembly, cold and hot test, repair, foreman...even learned to fix the huge automation machines. Big and dangerous. Race mechanic, regular mechanic that tested 5th in Ohio out of 175,000 auto tech students. That said, I do enjoy learning more mechanical stuff. But these things are far simpler than all those machines. It's not going to blow or any of that. Besides being some simple physics. But, again, thanks for all the help and what not.
  Also, I wanted to pass on a conversation I had with Crosman today. The barrel shrouds on the Trails are powder coated black. Figured as much when B/C bluing/rust remover didn't phase it. They are also aluminum alloy. So aluminum black won't work. But the bluing/rust remover does work on the action tube, cap, and breech. So I'll touch up the bluing on those parts. And the vice did little or no appreciable damage. Kind of surprising, kind of not, seeing as how it didn't grip tightly? I just forgot the 3" patches I was using for padding lying there. Started back in on the Crosman 760 variant 1 in the meantime. Waiting for retiree payday.

I could list a long list of mechanical experience, college, awards. But none says airgun smith. And we all can learn from each other.

Did you bother placing the seal in hot water to soften it up? Doing so softens it up makes it more pliable to go in. Without needing to hammer in the piston.

Its like taking a cam shaft and throwing it in a snow bank, and taking a cam gear and heating it up. Literately can drop the cam gear on the cam shaft and it slides right on, where normally be sitting there bashing for no reason.

[SteveP-52]

I appreciate all the help, but it's sounding like I've done everything backwards? Removing 50% of the lube is easy. And I didn't tap the piston that hard. But that new seal from the Australian guy is very firm, even with a good amount of moly paste. But In my own defense, I'm 2nd generation Ford, Foundry, machining, assembly, cold and hot test, repair, foreman...even learned to fix the huge automation machines. Big and dangerous. Race mechanic, regular mechanic that tested 5th in Ohio out of 175,000 auto tech students. That said, I do enjoy learning more mechanical stuff. But these things are far simpler than all those machines. It's not going to blow or any of that. Besides being some simple physics. But, again, thanks for all the help and what not.

Your seals could have been gotten straight from Crosman and probably quicker. As far as all the stuff listed above that you learned how to do? Impressive, definitely, but I doubt very much it happened after fixing only one machine or car did it? I'm guessing the answer is no, not with out a lot of reading and hands on experience and people who did know how helping you learn it.
Compared to that, yes, air guns are simpler by far but like anything else, they still have a learning curve just like everything you listed above and there's a lot of differences between your 760's and 160 and a break barrel rifle. It's why I said most learn from tearing down and tuning their own rifles first. The whole purpose behind a tear down and tune is to make a rifle better than it already is and why we do it. You're only on your first. Get a couple dozen under your belt and you'll look back and realize how much you've learned as they get easier with each rifle you do.
Just a guess on my part, but you've never mentioned tearing down your own guns, so the guess is you see nothing wrong with them and no reason to. Because I own one, that Striker you own although it shoots well and you're happy with it, can be made a much better, smoother and quieter shooter with a good tune, proper lube and a .25 cent screw in the trigger and there are more than a few threads on GTA to show you every last thing you'd need to do to make it that way.
I wouldn't hang your sign back out just yet and call yourself an airgun smith, but I will say again, you belong to one of the best resources on the internet for airgun information about anything you want to know or learn and there are plenty of guys who will happily help you. Take the time and lots of it to read, ask questions and a lot of them, tear down and tune your own rifles for the experience and to make them better and there are members here that will help you every last step of the way, with every last thing you need to look at and do and the simple and in a lot of cases inexpensive tools you need to accomplish it.
I am definitely no airgun smith or any kind of expert and I will never, ever claim to be, but if I can do this stuff from the things learned right here on GTA and from other members, anyone can.

[unionrdr]

Well, where to start? I Tried to save money on the seals, and got Australia?! Sheez. Note to self, ya know? And they don't give the 2 seals used in either end of the barrel shroud either? Diagrams also don't show if the front and back end connectors are threaded or what? Diagrams could be larger and clearer. Not to mention part # lists. And I appreciate all the help, so don't think I don't. It's just that I've been around machines, cars, guns, etc all my life and know a few things that apply. Just specifics here and there need to be learned to add to all that. So, on that note, I'm more the " village tinker" that all the smiths and mechanics came from. Looking at it from a historical context that somewhat explains my mechanical aptitudes. I must admit I like the finishing aspects more. But mildly modding/beefing them up along the way is what I've always doe with everything else. Hope that clears things up a little?
  I'm going to get some touch-up started on the XL1100 today. And do some more spring cleaning in the man cave, hoping I get lucky and find that pesky tensioner spring that ricocheted off someplace? Started back in on my 7660v1 yesterday. And yes, I've been working on my own rifles first. This is only the 2nd one I did for others, at there request. Some are older and shakier, others don't know how, don't want to, whatever. I really don't solicit work.

[RobertMcC]

Well, where to start? I Tried to save money on the seals, and got Australia?! Sheez. Note to self, ya know? And they don't give the 2 seals used in either end of the barrel shroud either? Diagrams also don't show if the front and back end connectors are threaded or what? Diagrams could be larger and clearer. Not to mention part # lists. And I appreciate all the help, so don't think I don't. It's just that I've been around machines, cars, guns, etc all my life and know a few things that apply. Just specifics here and there need to be learned to add to all that. So, on that note, I'm more the " village tinker" that all the smiths and mechanics came from. Looking at it from a historical context that somewhat explains my mechanical aptitudes. I must admit I like the finishing aspects more. But mildly modding/beefing them up along the way is what I've always doe with everything else. Hope that clears things up a little?
  I'm going to get some touch-up started on the XL1100 today. And do some more spring cleaning in the man cave, hoping I get lucky and find that pesky tensioner spring that ricocheted off someplace? Started back in on my 7660v1 yesterday. And yes, I've been working on my own rifles first. This is only the 2nd one I did for others, at there request. Some are older and shakier, others don't know how, don't want to, whatever. I really don't solicit work.

Now you are just making excuses. How much money are you really trying to save? The seal I can get for 2.21 CAD so under 2$ USD from crosman. How much was shipping from Australia?  How long did it take to get? Seal could been stuffed in a envelope for the cost of the stamp. Considering you can get the EVP ( parts diagram ) right from crosman, and it list the part number. You can also zoom in because its a PDF.. Even gives you the o ring size for the shroud.  It shows everything clear. So no real excuse.

https://www.crosman.com/pdf/manuals/Trail%20XL%20EVP.pdf

[unionrdr]

That's way better than Google search gave me! thanks. And I wasn't making excuses. I just found what was given in searches and went with it. AU site was $12.99 for the kit. Darn it, got a runtime error on Hotmail server. Can't check receipt,? * Okay, went back to the site, airgunseals.com, and total was $19.99. Crosman computer is down, so I gotta wait another hour or two to order sleeve seals and safety spring. Looks like the seals for all three barrel sleeves are the same.
  On another note, I, " took down my shingle" Even on my video intros and outros. I got enough of my own work to shoot videos of for some time to come. I must admit, I do enjoy the refinishing part. So I hope y'all don't take any of this the wrong way. I really do appreciate all the advice, freebies, etc. Just need the seal kit for the manual-cocking 760-D mac1 is working on to start reassembling that one. Then back to the XP-Tuned valve for the 160 Pellgun, 95 stock to 1000x, etc. I also started shooting part 6 of the 760 variant 1 assembly/partial resto.

[SteveP-52]

Crosman has those .pdf's for pretty much every gun they have and all the parts for newer stuff pretty cheap plus some of the older ones as long as you have part numbers, but remember: They will not look those numbers up for you. If it's a new rifle they just came out with in the last year, you probably won't find those yet and I found that out from reading here that a few members have called about parts for newer rifles and were told Crosman can take up to a year to add those to their website.
As far as other brands and rifles out there, this place is one of the better ones for finding downloadable files with exploded views of rifles. They don't have every rifle out there, but they do add as they get new ones, so it's a website to bookmark, just remember to translate to English before you start looking:

https://enlacesarmasdeaire.blogspot.com/

Another note on parts: the easiest and best way to find parts and where to get them if you aren't sure is to post a thread right here on GTA and ask. Not only can other members help you with how to fix it, they can also point you to the best and least expensive places to find parts and in a lot of cases, even hard to find stuff, so skip Google and ask right here on GTA.
They can also point you to places to get inexpensive tools to help with every part of tuning so don't hesitate to ask where they got it if they mention using something.

[unionrdr]

I think I'll just ask here from now on. Idk why I had a brain-fart and not called Crosman? I called back a lil bit ago, and their ordering computer is still down. Real cheap prices on seals and such too. Very reasonable! And yes, I did indeed need the part numbers handy for them. And Harbor Freight Tools and their website are real good for odd tools. And it works with " Honey" too. Saved a few dollars more using it to order tools. I also found some gunsmithing-related tools at Home Depot as well. Even listed them as such! Like the roll pin punch set I bought last month, 13bucks & change.

[RobertMcC]

I wouldnt say anything you get at harbour freight would be "gun smithing" tools. Those are Roll pin punches, are for roll pins. Not solid pins found on every gun. The rounded edge will slip off and mar the finish. Also gun smith ones are shorter so they don't bend as much. Also gunsmith screw drivers are much different than general carpenter screw drivers. Which 100% ruin the screw.

If you want a gun smith screw driver set, look at wheelers.

Also as a mechanic, you never cheap out on tools. Why most mechanics have 20K + tool boxes. Gunsmithing is no different, its quite easy to mar or round a screw using cheap screw drivers.

[unionrdr]

Most of the time, I use the handle from my Umarex flex-shaft cleaning kit and the 6 screwdriver bits it comes with. I have a couple large sets of driver bits for my driver drill as well. I just use the craftsman screw drivers when I need a smaller size, or a deep hole for a sunken screw or other. And yes, those are for the hollow, roll pins rolled from a rectangular bit of steel. I liked Craftsman sockets and such as a mechanic, since they are thin-walled and fit places the clunky other brands wouldn't. And some long drift punches would be nice as well.

[RobertMcC]

Most of the time, I use the handle from my Umarex flex-shaft cleaning kit and the 6 screwdriver bits it comes with. I have a couple large sets of driver bits for my driver drill as well. I just use the craftsman screw drivers when I need a smaller size, or a deep hole for a sunken screw or other. And yes, those are for the hollow, roll pins rolled from a rectangular bit of steel. I liked Craftsman sockets and such as a mechanic, since they are thin-walled and fit places the clunky other brands wouldn't. And some long drift punches would be nice as well.

Nothing you said are "gunsmith approved". Gun smithing you work on smaller pieces than mechanics. I have the umerex kit and its just a cheap multi bit screw driver. They are not hollow ground. So they still mar screws.  I have the 23piece wheeler gunsmith hollow ground screw driver set and upgrading to the 89 pc. there a reason why there is like 20 different size flat head screws in the kit.  Roll pin punches are for roll pins. I don't see no starter punch, And trying to drive out a pin with a long punch, just ends up in slippage and bending. Ruining the finish. So is putting metal object in a metal vise. Or even using a pin block.

I have about 40 pin punches, various size, lengths, tapered, straight, roll pin.

Nothing worst than seeing marred up guns, screws that are mangled. I ruined alot of screws gunsmithing with the incorrect tools. Ruins resale and gives people bad rep on you.

Here is the difference between gunsmith and regular screw driver.



Thin wall isn't always the best. Why most professional ones use impact grade.

This is not mechanics. Just because you did mechanical stuff in the past. Doesn't mean your a gun smith.

If your going to have videos and such, might as well start using proper tools for the job.

[unionrdr]

I see where this is going. I don't think we're just talking about me here. I've worked on small stuff on cars too. Ever done injectors and 4BBL's? I know roll pin punches aren't to be used as drift punches, etc. But it seems a little weird, using $1,000 worth of tools on a $50 rifle? Just be careful and it'll be fine. I know and understand that much. And I never said I was a gun smith. Y'all did. Sorry I said anything. I'm not a purist, but I get the job done. I'll finish mine and that's it. I'm done...

[RobertMcC]

I see where this is going. I don't think we're just talking about me here. I've worked on small stuff on cars too. Ever done injectors and 4BBL's? I know roll pin punches aren't to be used as drift punches, etc. But it seems a little weird, using $1,000 worth of tools on a $50 rifle? Just be careful and it'll be fine. I know and understand that much. And I never said I was a gun smith. Y'all did. Sorry I said anything. I'm not a purist, but I get the job done. I'll finish mine and that's it. I'm done...

Don't need 1000 worth of tools, maybe couple hundred. A proper screw driver set goes a long way ( small 23 piece gunsmithing one was under 25 CAD ) A rubber mat on a vise, Wood dowels.

Painter TAPE, placing tape on roll pins or around saves idiot scratches.

No injectors on 4 barrel carbs, proper term is jets. I worked on various type of carbs, diesel injection pumps, injectors.

[only1harry]

Robert, please respect other members and their opinions.  Not everyone takes the same approach to accomplish the same thing.  If they are happy with the tools they are using, it's their guns to scratch or be careful with.  No need to cut them down.  Be mindful of the GTA rules and abide by them.  You can make recommendations (like you have) but do not characterize other members and tell them what they are, or are not.
 
Thank you,
Harry

[RobertMcC]

I'll admit I was a a**.

Well I guess I owe you Leonard, a huge apology. I shouldn't been so harsh on you, Or questioned your abilities. I like to say Sorry even though the damage has been done.