.177 H&N Rabbit Magnum II - Accuracy, issues & a possible solution.

[Mod90]

I've had a fixation with these pellets over the years. I've only ever had one gun that would shoot them with reasonable accuracy. I've also noticed that a lot of people that have tried them, if not most, have found them to be unuseable due to the fact that they just aren't accurate. I'm aware that many of us would like to be able to use these pellets especially for hunting and long distance shooting, but they perform so badly that they are largely unusable.
This motivated me to seriously look at what's been the root cause of this inaccuracy. And I started to measure and compare these pellets to others  And it was during this comparison that I came to a couple of interesting conclusions. I've since sent an  email to H & N stating that many people find these pellets to be inaccurate and some minor alterations that should remedy this.

First thing is that indented skirt on those pellets. I believe that if they made them with a concave skirt instead of that indented one it would improve seating and loading,  particularly in guns that use thin needle like probes.
Secondly,  I picked up my calipers and started measuring and found something very interesting, in that the skirts of these pellets are way oversized. I measured 20 random pellets from 2 tins and found that all of them had oversized skirts measuring an average of 4.65 mm in diameter, while the base of the pellets are 4.51 mm & the noses are 4.51 mm. This is why these pellets usually require a lot more effort to get them seated all the way in the bore,  & this can't be good for accuracy at all either . So I recommended that they make them with the base and skirt of the same diameter of 4.50 mm

Anyone interested in any changes they'd like to see made to these pellets that could be made to perform better can comment. Imho, it's about high  time something was done about this pellet to make it work for those of us that would like to use them.

Cheers

[Motorhead]

Perhaps a simple sizing threw a straight wall sizer such as the Old Beeman punch threw type unit would be all that is required ?  The standard sizer die in the .177 was .1785" or 4.52mm
* Now finding & getting ones hands on one ... not so easy.

[Nvreloader]

Guys

This post has my undivided attention,
I have wondered about the CORRECT sizing of pellets, for the best results/accuracy etc.

What would your Ideas be on the correct sizing dies diameters be, for 17/22 calibers?

I have a small press that can be adapted to sizing these pellets, for any caliber,
I have several hundred sizing dies I have made for the neck sizing of cases, in the PB arena,
there is approximately a dozen or more blank sizing dies awaiting to be correctly sized for the best diameters,
for 17/22 caliber pellets etc.

I would greatly appreciate any and all info related to these sizing dimensions etc.

Tia,
Don

[Mod90]

Scott, a straight wall sizer would do the job, but I'm thinking that since the skirt is so substantially over sized that after it's sized there will most likely be some smeared lead flashings on the skirt to be removed afterwards. But sizing is an option.

Don, to the best of my knowledge the ideal sizing of pellets should be just a little larger than the diameter of the muzzle, so there will be differences from one barrel to the next because some barrels have a more aggressive or tighter choke than others. That's why some barrels prefer pellets with 4.50 mm, & others 4.51 or 4.52.
That being said I believe for conventional diabolo pellets in .177 sizing them to 4.50 to 4.51 mm would be ideal,since the choke on the muzzle will size them down uniformly. Basically, you'd have to measure the diameter at the muzzle to know what would be ideal for the individual barrel. I've seen some crazy aggressive chokes on some guns as tight as 4.46 mm, & others with barely any choke at all coming in at 4.49 mm. You'll need to push a pellet through the barrel & measure it to get an idea of where to start. Good thing being that once you know the size of the choke you should be able to use that info for sizing both conventional pellets and solid slugs.

[Motorhead]

FYI, these old beeman sizing dies start with a gentle taper & pellets pushed threw are squeezed smaller and have never noted lead fretting or scuffing using it.
* had my Beeman sizer for @ 35 years now and run countless tins worth threw it.

[Nvreloader]

Thanks Ricky

I was thinking along the line about your extra wide bases on those pellets, would carefully made sizing die, help?

My plan was to use a reamer with 1/4" per foot of taper, the reamer depth is controlled to get a straight shot to the sizing head section,
meaning first sizing the skirts down to whatever proper diameter to best fit etc.
Then use a under sizer reamer, then polish the head diameter to whatever size needed, for head sizing,
after the skirts were sized.

I have been drawing up some plans along this line etc, along with getting the pin gages in various sizes to fit the my 17/22 rifle bores,
this little press I have, can be converted, so I can size the base and head at the same time,
with the proper adjustment, then eject the sized pellet, and start all over again with another pellet,
with one stroke of the press etc.

Tia,
Don

[Nvreloader]

Scott

Since I have never seen a Beeman sizing die,
can you provide the O/S dia and length of those sizing dies?

All my sizing dies are 1/2" diameter by 3/4" in length,
but can made in any length.

Tia,
Don 

[Motorhead]

Scott

Since I have never seen a Beeman sizing die,
can you provide the O/S dia and length of those sizing dies?

All my sizing dies are 1/2" diameter by 3/4" in length,
but can made in any length.

Tia,
Don 

Am not going to take it apart, but using calipers on the unit can get you close ...

Actual die insert @ .500 O.D.  X @ .875" long & looks like Stainless
Plunger housing is @ 3 1/2" long being anodized aluminum
Plunger appears to be Delrin'ish but harder having a push probe of @ 7/8" to clear the pellet out back of the die insert.

[Nvreloader]

Scott

Thank you for that info,
I understand about not taking it apart, must retain those settings etc. 

Tia,
Don

[Nvreloader]

Scott

What would you think of the correct sizing diameters of the .177 dies, should be to start with,
.177" - .178" - 179"
and for the 22 calibers sizing diameters of,
.215" -.216" -.217"

I realize that a .0005" could make a big difference, in accurate sizing and I'll tackle in the next step,
in making these dies.

Tia,
Don

[Motorhead]

Scott

What would you think of the correct sizing diameters of the .177 dies, should be to start with,
.177" - .178" - 179"
and for the 22 calibers sizing diameters of,
.215" -.216" -.217"

I realize that a .0005" could make a big difference, in accurate sizing and I'll tackle in the next step,
in making these dies.

Tia,
Don

Only data I have is on the only Sizer owned having a .1785" die in it.

Overseas you can get these & perhaps THERE sizing specs are what your asking
See: http://www.airrifletuning.com/products/tbt-pellet-sizers/


beauty of the beeman unit was the plunger is contained within the body and can be operated much faster than a 2 piece design.  ALSO the push plunger stays centered having each pellet pushed threw die exactly the same.

[nervoustrigger]

Hi Ricky, I just came across this thread...coincidentally I put up some observations about the .22 cal versions at pretty close to the same time on Sunday.

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=138297

And your sentiments line up pretty closely with mine...they are very difficult to chamber and I wonder if that's part of the problem.  The skirts are not oversized in relation to other .22 pellets so apparently it has more to do with them being so thick that they don't conform as easily.  Tonight I pushed a couple through different barrels (pic below) with a cleaning rod and it took over 15lbs of force to get them fully started into the rifling (head and skirt).  So if I can fashion a suitable die, I'm going to try sizing some as an experiment and see if things improve.

Meanwhile I'll follow your discussion here.

[Mod90]

Nicely done Jason. That pellet through the unchoked barrel looks like it's seen better days. Let us know what you find with your sizing efforts.
I myself am going to try sizing the.177's, & I'll start by sizing them to the choke & work upwards from there. No doubt any feeding issues will be resolved by going this route, but accuracy & velocity may be affected.

[Harpoon1]

Scott

What would you think of the correct sizing diameters of the .177 dies, should be to start with,
.177" - .178" - 179"
and for the 22 calibers sizing diameters of,
.215" -.216" -.217"

I realize that a .0005" could make a big difference, in accurate sizing and I'll tackle in the next step,
in making these dies.

Tia,
Don

http://www.airrifletuning.com/product-category/tbt-pellet-sizers/

[Mod90]

UPDATE:
Well, H&N Responded to my email & are taking a few of my recommendations under advisement.
Snapshots of my original email to them & their response they sent me on 5th Feb 2018.

[E30_S50]

In my 22 nova freedom I found an improvement in these rabbit magnum pellets' FPS after I sized them down to .215 with a NOE sizing die. Accuracy still not too good though.