What we have to write if we want present PCP accuracy transparently .

[skorec]

I an sure  that  at  GTA forum  is a lot of veeeeeery experiences  guys .
But I am little bit sad  that some of guys tell/explain the most important thinks/information’s only  as last one   or not inform us about them at all . 

For example If we  present accuracy we have to  present it  as much fully   as we are able but I am thinking that minimum  bolt are must :

1.    Caliber and Exact name  of pellets/bullets and also the weight as  a additional information can help .
Particular production bunch or production or measured exact size or weight can help as additional info too.
2.   Muzzle sped or  better amplitude of speed /speed variation.
3.   Distance of target and inches or MOA of grouping  , pictures can help . If you are shooting at stable wind condition you may rather present fully accuracy not only the grouping.
4.   Barrel details ( as much as possible , Exact gun name or better  barrel producer, type of bore, TR, Length OD ,… ) also barrel fixing, stiffening, shrouding , free floating, re_crowning, Lapping,… …….. 
5.   Conditions  ( wind ,….   type of resting,….. )
6.   Scope magnification and stability of mounting too
7.   Trigger abilities
8.   Barrel cleaning and eventually  pellets lubing too
9.   Presenting more shots present the gun more.  One filling string can be good compromise.

YES because most of us like present only better  shootings results  some  mention about amount of good v.s  bad group with the same gun, pellets and condition  inside longer time period  can be helpful too.
YES some of us are using the gun also for hunting/plinking and therefore testing it at difference distances  and conditions can be help full.  It  check also right gun deviation .
YES  we can not be sure  that if we use the same the results do not need to be the same but adds ratio will be higher.
YES I agree that not all of us are focusing  only  to abuttal  shooting at 50-120  yd .

[PCPhack]

This is a good checklist. I will try to follow it in an upcoming slug comparison. What is amplitude of speed? I record FPS at 1 ft from the barrel/shroud end.

[Ontarget58]

The more information is provided the better you can judge the results. What bugs me is that we colloquially use the term "accuracy" when we are really talking about group size which is "precision". Virtually any gun can be made accurate by adjusting sights. Also, personal pride may lead us to selective publication of our best results that are not typical of daily performance. The internet groups are full of reports of springer owners claiming quarter and even dime size groups at 50 yards. C'mon people.....

[Rodeo]

Aww come on....
  I shot a one hole group at 100yds with my springer.  Of course it was one pellet and I don't know where that group landed..... but it was a one hole group. Lol

[Motorhead]

Because it works for YOU sadly does not mien it will for others or visa versa 

Data points are just that "data" being subjective to so many variables we have no control over.
LOT # on pellets often change how well they shoot in a barrel and can be good in one & not in another, new lot # and trend could reverse.
Often production barrels are subject to new tooling or old producing them and final product will change over a given year or more ...  again one person gets a good one, another great, another a dud.
Sadly & just my opinion that most cases in Air Guns that when the parts used & installed have high QC, pellets also of high QC etc etc  can we really get some idea on expected accuracy / consistency from any given air gun platform.

JMO ...
Scott

[pecor]

I believe Scott, Hit the Nail On The Head 100%   Way to many Variables Involved

[Nomadic Pirate]

The more information is provided the better you can judge the results. What bugs me is that we colloquially use the term "accuracy" when we are really talking about group size which is "precision". Virtually any gun can be made accurate by adjusting sights. Also, personal pride may lead us to selective publication of our best results that are not typical of daily performance. The internet groups are full of reports of springer owners claiming quarter and even dime size groups at 50 yards. C'mon people.....

Good post,...and it's not only Springers shooters, PCP shooters fall under that too, claimed group sized differ obviously.

[Dairyboy]

The more information is provided the better you can judge the results. What bugs me is that we colloquially use the term "accuracy" when we are really talking about group size which is "precision". Virtually any gun can be made accurate by adjusting sights. Also, personal pride may lead us to selective publication of our best results that are not typical of daily performance. The internet groups are full of reports of springer owners claiming quarter and even dime size groups at 50 yards. C'mon people.....

Good post,...and it's not only Springers shooters, PCP shooters fall under that too, claimed group sized differ obviously.

Entirely agree here. However it also depends on how much shooting there doing on paper. I for one am a hunter I'll shoot a group or a few and then just hunt. I just assume I'm always that good of a shot or the gun is or the pellets are consistent etc. Now when I shoot a gun I shoot multiple 5 shot groups at whatever distances multiple times and it seems the first groups I usually always do awesome!! Then 2-3 groups later things aren't near as great but still good. So I might get those great groups but now my expectations aren't nearly as high since shooting paper more and more and I realized I'm not always consistent either. Hard to judge just how accurate a gun is when there's a human pulling the trigger.

[KnifeMaker]

+1

Knife

[Ribbonstone]

Really think it will help....although it seems like a lot more information that you really need....but I guess too much is better than not enough.

Don't think  one barrel is going to act just like it's borther...same brand/make and maybe even with consecutive serial numbers.
Don't think your tin of XYZ pellets is going to be the same as my tin of XYZ pellets....or that either will be eactly like the next lot.  That's just not been my experience, although I do tend to order a lot of pellets at one time and don't need to reoarder for quite awhile.


Think you might be depressed by how slap-hazard a lot of this is, but I'll give an examples:

1. JSB Exact Diabolo 8.44gr. (from about Nov. 2016....buy enough, and you'll still be shooting them for a long time).  Never bothered to get the real-world weight, which maight be 8.37 or 8.49...we'll just go with 8.44.  Only sorting is visual...pick it out the can, take a look at it, toss it aside if it doesn't look "right".

2.  The average speed over those 40 shots was 802fps/ 12.06foot pounds.  The vel. varation in those 40 shots was right at 2.8%...so call it 1.4% slower (791fps / 11.73 foot pounds) to 1.4% faster (813fps / 12.39 foot pounds)

3. Target distance, by steel tape, is exacty 60 feet from the front of my bench to the paper.  Now that may be 59.6 feet for a really long barrel that over hangs the bench by a little....or 60.2 feet for a more stubby barrel rifle....or even 61.4 feet for a pistol.....but I'm not moving the bench.

Results for  8 5-shot groups comes out to  .7375MOA (at 20 yards)...which isn't as useful a number for that range as  .1475" (or .15").

4. Stock barrel that came with the rifle.  No mods, no changes other than the addtion of an LDC (which turns out to be a 62gram LDC).

5.  Light winds...but with an add-on.  Most of the 20 yards is shielded from winds from the south and west (which is my predominate pattern most of the year...but not in winter).  So even moderate winds are just kind of random turbulence for most of the distance most of the year.  Only when fronts blow though in the winter do north/west winds come into play, then it's like any place elce.

6. That one has an old Tasco World Class 6-18X...was set at 18X.  Just a set of Leapers rings...seems stable enough to me.  Do admit, some rifles do seem to need additional stiffening from long heavy multi-screw one piece mounts....this one ain't one of them.

7. Not really sure what trigger abilites would be.  I adjusted this one for a single stage, 14-16oz  pound beak some years ago and haven't asked it to do anything else.  Pretty sure I could get it down to less than that (about 8 ounces) or up to maybe 4 pounds.....but I like the 1 pound area....which really is still a touch too light for a safetyless rifle with cold weather fingers out in the woods).

8. I clean the barrel maybe twice a year...or whenever it starts to shoot worse than I expect it to.  When I do clean, two damp patches, followed by 3 dry patches, then a few (3 or 4) "fouling  shots" seems to do it.

 Will say that a picture does help.





So...how much of that extra info was really useful  It's kind of dreadful way many of us are about keeping track of the little variables....likly becasue they aren't major variables as we aren't going to be changing things once we find "right".

1. Are pellets, even with the same name/same lable printed on the tin, the same? Pretty sure they've been "out of stock" once or twice in between then and now, so the production of today's pellets is likely to be a bit different from the same pellets bought in 2016 (and yes, I do buy a lot of good pellets at one time, so am likly to be shooting pellets more than a year old).

2. I don't sort, other than to remove the visually "off" ones.  That's what I pay for rather than visually sorting, weight shorting. diameter sorting, or roll testing.  BAsically, I just bugger-flick the occasional "odd" looking pellet towards the lead-bucket.

3. If you are looking for accuracy at a given range...why would I really care about a few feet persecond in velocity/energy?  Either it makes small groups at an acceptable energy level, or it doesn't.

4. Either the scope is stable...or it's not.  If a massive mount is actually needed to keep the scope stable on a PCP, then I start to suspect some other problems at work.

5. I will agree that a clean/ slightly seasoned, bore is likely the best shooter.  But if you've a barrel that needs cleaning often...then you've got a rough barrel.

[Ribbonstone]

Don't get me wrong here...would really like to have at least a set of standards so we (As airgunners) could exchange data in a decently uniform way.  Wouldn't be looking for XYS pellets, at 850fps, in this barrel, to be a universal for all those barrels/rifles....but at least we'd be talking the same number of shots per group, same number of groups.

[Kinetic45^]

Lots of comments here from people I really respect who have hundreds of years of experience combined...

But I think there is too much emphasis on 'no gun shoots like another gun'.  That is generally true but like model guns usually DO shoot alike, until you get into the high precision tuned range.

An example is the .25 Marauder, because I really dug into the past on the forums (something not all people are going to do) I found that particular JSB pellets were reported as superior performers (along with a small few other successful types n weights reported on the forums) but when I got mine of course I bought one tin of everything because of the 'everything's different' philosophy.  And guess what, I could have saved money because the JSB DO shoot best.

That was OK because I like to experiment and shoot lots, not something everybody can afford the time or money to do.  I am always conscious that our sport needs constant infusions of new blood or it will decrease and decline...  Newbes NEED to have a helping hand from the old timers, not just encouragement but technical advice that saves them TIME and frustration or they may not do that well at first and give up too soon. The wonderful thing about the Internet Forums is the spread of experience/knowledge and I ALWAYS think about who might read my posts not just today but in years to come.  You guys must recognize that you are MENTORS and that sometimes it's the little details that matter but sometimes it's the 'big picture' that educate without having to 're-invent the wheel' work that not everybody wants to do.  A novice needs to have some encouraging success at first and keep on instead of moving on to something else.  The OP was looking for that but instead got shot down in my opinion.  The idea of a broad data base that helps ignorant people get up to speed faster IS needed in our community.  It takes a certain type of person to develop an interest in air guns, it's costly and requires bigger effort and inefficient compared to PB shooting so roadblocks should be minimized to encourage those (small fraction of society) who have the personality to be a member of our 'club'.

 Just my .02 worth.

[Nomadic Pirate]

The more information is provided the better you can judge the results. What bugs me is that we colloquially use the term "accuracy" when we are really talking about group size which is "precision". Virtually any gun can be made accurate by adjusting sights. Also, personal pride may lead us to selective publication of our best results that are not typical of daily performance. The internet groups are full of reports of springer owners claiming quarter and even dime size groups at 50 yards. C'mon people.....

Good post,...and it's not only Springers shooters, PCP shooters fall under that too, claimed group sized differ obviously.

Entirely agree here. However it also depends on how much shooting there doing on paper. I for one am a hunter I'll shoot a group or a few and then just hunt. I just assume I'm always that good of a shot or the gun is or the pellets are consistent etc. Now when I shoot a gun I shoot multiple 5 shot groups at whatever distances multiple times and it seems the first groups I usually always do awesome!! Then 2-3 groups later things aren't near as great but still good. So I might get those great groups but now my expectations aren't nearly as high since shooting paper more and more and I realized I'm not always consistent either. Hard to judge just how accurate a gun is when there's a human pulling the trigger.

Haha I'm with you all the way,

I hardly post groups pictures because I could have shot it at 10 yards and claim it's a 50 yards group.

I clearly remember this day when I started shooting with my StormPup .25 at 50 yards, after 5 shots it was a ragged hole I wanted to stop then but I decided to shoot the full 10 shots magazine,....It was extremely stressful after every shot I would try convince myself to stop there, but I kept going.

In the end I managed a 10 shot group at 50 yards covered with a penny,
I was so happy I actually posted that,... but that is not a daily occurrence

The Internet makes a lot of heroes when it comes to precision shooting IMO

[skorec]

I tried to answer at first post

[Tweeter]

Of course we "cherry pick" groups to show our friends on the forums nobody likes seeing shotgun groups at 25 yards!  I think it goes without saying that nobody can shoot tiny groups at any distance ALL the time.  So why does everyone get so worked up about it?  If I post an insanely small group I shot at 50 yards and some don't believe me then who cares?  It's not like I stated that my gun does it every time without fail!  And if somebody feels the need to exaggerate a bit than so be it (I think we all have exaggerated about something, at some point in our lives), c'mon guys!   

Internet disclaimer (so you can't tell me I'm wrong):  IMO of course   

[oneshot61]

Of course we "cherry pick" groups to show our friends on the forums nobody likes seeing shotgun groups at 25 yards!  I think it goes without saying that nobody can shoot tiny groups at any distance ALL the time.  So why does everyone get so worked up about it?  If I post an insanely small group I shot at 50 yards and some don't believe me then who cares?  It's not like I stated that my gun does it every time without fail!  And if somebody feels the need to exaggerate a bit than so be it (I think we all have exaggerated about something, at some point in our lives), c'mon guys!   

Internet disclaimer (so you can't tell me I'm wrong):  IMO of course   

Well said;)... When testing a new bullet I sometimes lock my gun down on my shooting vice to see what its capable of, removing human error as much as possible. But the groups I post are me shooting without it being locked down. There is possible, and then there is probable. Possible is in the vice, probable is me shooting off of bags, rest, or offhand. To give a bullet its fair chance, out of a given barrel, it gets the vice, then I know im not shaking, pulling the gun. If it doesn't shoot well out of the vice, its definitely not going to shoot well out of my hands. I figure there are a lot of better shooters here than me, and if I can put up a good group with a particular bullet, with a red dot or medium quality scope, someone else will be dead on. And I hunt, so most of my targets are mobile, off hand is a whole other world.

[enazle]

There are a three types of posters, those that will share freely and are not competitive shooters, those that shoot Competitively and share freely, and those that shoot competitively and keep their secrets but will post a group or two.

I think everyone fits in there somewhere, I appreciate those that do share their experiences. They are the reason this form is what it is.

[rintafile]

My humble opinion... If You need to cheat on group sizes or distances... Do it if it makes good to your self-esteem betters your life quality or make you some how feeling better than else.    Personally I haven't got any reason do so. I shoot like i shoot and practised when ever had a change. Usually I take pictures if it worth of taking. Living in Finland so not allowed hunting on airguns so thats a topic which I can't take any part..

I share my small knowledge and facts. Doing so isn't take anything away from me so why not to share. And yes we do shoot competitions here but it is small group of fellows and fairly tight group so it isn't so serious.

[Ribbonstone]

I'd like it if there were some basic standard units.....but thinking about it, realize that most units can be converted pretty easily.  So MOA, inch measure, or metric.   Basically the rifle, the scope (or sighting device for non-scope shooters), pellets, range, and number of shots per group.  Lets just use a range from the shooter to the target (kind of like bowling....a foot-fault line you can't cross).

Doen't really care if the shots per group are 5 shots, 10 shots, or 20 shots (or anything inbetween so long as you note what the number is).  Are times I'm likely to use the magazine shots as the shots per group (which means some odd numbers like 6, 8, 9, etc).

[steveoh]

While I respect folks going for the very best groups ever, and keeping extremely precise stats, it ain't for me. 

I shoot some at paper, but I kinda like the feed back of popping a rat or mouse in the head. 

My flameproof trousers are on.