Caliber Choice for Long Range

[Taso1000]

Cedric,

You don't know how happy I was to see your thread.  I've been thinking about a rifle like yours in .177 or under caliber to shoot in Illinois for a long time.   

The recent posts in your thread are guys speculating about shooting 1300 fps or faster.  I knew lead had physical limitations but I didn't have any first hand knowledge. 

Thanks,

Taso

[rsterne]

Ced, the 1300 fps comment was a "what if you used 15.5 gr bullets".... not someone who actually did it.... Supersonic is a waste of time (and air) in airguns, IMO....

Bob

[MJP]

Well sabot and 600 gr bullet leaving the muzzle around 1600fps will stay supersonic for a long way. 

Marko

[Tofazfou]

Ced, the 1300 fps comment was a "what if you used 15.5 gr bullets".... not someone who actually did it.... Supersonic is a waste of time (and air) in airguns, IMO....

Bob

Bob,

Yeah, I didnt take it as someone actually did it.  I thought it was a misquote on me saying ive gotten 1030 FPS.  Like some1 misswrote 1030 for 1300 FPS.  Thats all.

But i also promote the idea of people testing what they believe might work.  So if someone want to build a 17 cal HMaiR or a 224 supersonic air blaster and push special slugs at supersonic, HEY, I say go for it cause ya never know till you DO IT!

The 172 HMaiR was built with BLIND knowledge because there was previously no information out there on the caliber in an airgun.  So I thought to myself, "Why Not" and went  with what I already knew about the 17 HMR.  And so far, every aspect has worked.  Even down to my newly HP'd slugs.  THEY FRAGMENT and it was just a guess on the HP.

[rsterne]

Maybe so, Marko.... but they will have more wind drift than if you launch the same bullet at 900 fps.... IMO, gravity you can compensate for.... the wind is your enemy....



Even with a BC as high as 0.40, you have to get to over 2000 fps MV just to get back to the same wind drift you had at 900.... and the worse the BC, the faster you have to drive it to break even.... I know it's counterintuitive.... but that is how bad the drag is at and over Mach 1.... Another one, for some specific bullets, at longer range.... I think this was for 400 yards....



Check out the 168 gr. Sierra HPBT, even it has to be driven at a MV of 2300 fps for the wind drift to be as low as what it would be at 900 fps.... 1400-1600 fps is the worst muzzle velocity to use for wind drift....

Bob

[rifle50]

BOB, Your title is Choice for LONG RANGE??  You should have defined THAT?  I imagine you consider 200 yds as long range? I got some flack over a year ago when I was getting my new barrels for then .257's and posted, that going to start testing at SHORT RANGE of 300-400 yds!!  I followed that with I consider MEDIUM RANGE 500-600 yds and after that LONG RANGE... People scoffed. Well  up to date shows Doug can easily, and others shooting his guns. At EBR 2017, several shooting AAA Arms, Tom  Compton's guns easily hitting dingers to 550 yds. Cedric has guns and skills and video to 440 yds hitting cans. Up North Airgunner too........Anyway long range is certainly what the shooter thinks it is.

It makes not one IOTA of DIFFERENCE on CALIBER if shooting .257 -.457. After shooting to 1108 yds with .257 I plugged into the Hornady Balllistic Computer, the parameters I thought I could reach with a .457 Texan and bought one. Video to post soon and FIrst time out in AUGUST 2017, shooting beyond 600 yds, I set up on Benchrest Benches and shot 383 and 412 gr slugs at 1070 yds.......Same as .257 with 85 gr bullets.  I have video to post another time shooting steel RAMS with LEE 455 gr from Texan and are quite good.......Point is, any caliber from .257 to .457 will travel 1000 yds reasonably  well. I just ran ## for .357 and will do same. I was using Spitzers but wanted distance..Flat Point will do it too, but with more wind drag will need MORE MOA to get there......

My learned by experience opinion is FLAT NOSE or HP for hunting and any caliber will work. Decide what your hunting options will be and go from there ......Light caliber and slugs for light game and Heavy for big tough game......

At the start of your thread BOB, you post what you have repeatedly posted of all the tables and math. The work of others and your BIBLE, so to  speak. As we have disagreed on before, a LOT IS THEORY and does not TRANSLATE TO WORKING WELL in the ACTUAL SHOOTING. I know, I have about +30 molds for .257 and 457.....

Your THEORY of BBT is just that, theory and the math of less drag works ON PAPER........With your tapered LONG BT it translates to NOSE HEAVY PROJECTILE, period. That LONG BBT .308 bullet you keep promoting was NOT A VERY ACCURATE BULLET.  Yes it did win EBR but not because it was better bullet. I saw pictures of those targets and a score of 169 out of 200 was pathetic. 31 points dropped out of 200.Yes  wind, but was told it mostly was from behind shooters and not crosswind and they considered not as bad as some told the story?.......Targets looked like a shotgun pattern. Besides it was BARELY STABLE even getting  speed up with HELIUM. Targets exhibited signs of YAW, I was told this?  You built and entire gun in .257 to shoot this bullet scaled down. After over a year and excuses and forum members including me wanted to see results of this bullet and the rifle  specially built to shoot this bullet.  Well it DIDN'T work and there are those of us knew on air it would not be better than what is available now. I think you posted a 3 shot group that was maybe 1.25" but the couple 5 shot groups were terrible that you posted, and those were the best of the tests. I also read on AirGun Guild a post of yours to some question where YOU STATED that you had NEVER shot a 1" group at 100 yds, and did mention Doug, Cedric and myself as persons who can do it fairly regularly. But yu are promoting DESIGNS for people to BUY???

 So my big gripe is your promotions of designs, dozens of them UNTRIED/UNPROVEN, and people thinking it must be better and they spending hard earned  $$ HOPING IT IS BETTER?  And to this day I know of not a better bullet being made. BBT especially, as they are ALL NOSE HEAVY, making them not balanced well. Yes a certain gun that can't shoot well for shooter and he may do better but that will be an isolated case.......

I told you before on forum the FIASCO of the Hornady AMAX 50 bullet designed by ballistic engineers and was a FLOP, early 90's...  The 50  Caliber Shooters Association match shooters suspected BT TO LONG. I was there during middle 90's. BT was .300"  LONG. Hornady re-tooled, ballistic engineers shortened BT to .200" and is still the excellent round it was after re-tooling. You never responded to my comment then........So engineers in the business and factory tooling to make it, with this costly error, how can we believe a hobbyist has a better IDEA? Using a computer to make drawings and math works on paper, but DOES NOT TRANSLATE TO ACTUAL PROGRESS or better in the field.

You have stated you don't work for NOE. OK, but you entice AL to make a design and keep cajoling unsuspecting persons to sign up over and over for a design not ever made before or even proven it better than any GC or FB bullet design out there.

I do not have problems with TRYING NEW STUFF. My problem is your flooding this forum and AIRGUN GUILD with all your unproven drawings and getting NOE to make them and the uninitiated thinking these have to be the best thing going.  I concede certain rifles MAY work better than what they have shot before and is fine. 

I shot all my long range stuff these past 3 years and were either FB or GC I have said to you before and I repeat it here, You will not tell the difference with an airgun if the BT works as well as another bullet.........If the shooter or gun can not hit squat, a BT will not help......

Another thing I have told you but you repeat all the BC nonsense of computation. Yes it works with powder speeds. I have used several times a Chronograph at 2 locations simultaneously, and calculated BC. At our slow speeds it doesn't work well. Say slug is .35 BC. FINE. go to 200 yds from  100 zero, with a 383 gr moa is +20.5. Start on target is CLOSE.  Jump to 550 yds, and need 125 moa, fire and LOW needing maybe 10 more moa to get hit on target.  It progressively gets worse as the original BC IS  WAY OFF for distance, where with powder rifles fired 2800 fps is right on........when I get to 1000 yds or more I need 30-40 moa of angle MORE to get on target..  So what I do anymore when first getting  MOA to reach way out there, enter say 600 yds, speed and weight of slug,  then instead of BC entered of original I THOUGHT BC of .35, I keep trial and error enter a lower number that will coincide with the MOA i needed to get crosshairs center target......Then when I go to extreme distances I  use this number to get a  lot closer on my raked area instead of hitting so low I can't see an impact. For .45 have heavy bullets from .4- a 500 gr spitzer over .5 by manufacturer.   To give me the MOA needed for 1000 yds I use a bc of .225 and first hits are in my raked area and then adjust accordingly.........My .257, over 2 chrono's had one bullet calculate at .4 BC also. At long distance I used .195 and right on.........So the calculation of BC at the MOLD CO do NOT TRANSLATE at our slow and greatly SLOWING speeds. If shooting close range, say 200 yds it won't be right on but practicing will show what come up you will need.......

I am surprised the GTA mods let you continually promote YOUR BBT designs, and promoting sales for NOE for UNPROVEN DESIGNS and persons possibly wasting their $$$. Now if there was a bullet BETTER, everyone would be singing the praises, including me....And better, I don't mean someone who claims ONE HOLE and shooting 40 yds. Amusing is that one hole is exactly THAT, first shot. All others make it bigger and if enough shots cut out paper, it isn't a one hole group.

I know you don't respond to my threads anymore as I always have something to say in disagreement you don't like, and am about the ONLY one who publicly posts a differing view on what you preach. I know you mean well but really have done no shooting that would PROVE YOUR IDEAS. I have shooting knowledge and your forte is making math theory add up on paper and graphs. Not quite the same thing........

Cheers..............Carl

[rsterne]

Carl, thank you for your constructive criticism.... If you had read through this thread, I refer to ballistics up to 1100 yards (1000 M), so you should consider that as part of my concept of "long range".... Although I did use drawings of BBTs to ILLUSTRATE the differences in shape between bullets of the same SD that were .458, .308, and .257 cal.... I did that only because I have them handy.... The same thing applies to FB bullets, or GC bullets....

Air can only push a certain SD to a certain velocity from a given barrel length and pressure.... I would think you would not dispute that.... Larger caliber bullets have a fatter shape for the same SD, and therefore a poorer FF.... This skews the BC in favour of smaller calibers.... Yes, there are limits, and I pointed that out as well....

If you think this is a advertisement for NOE, then I apologize, that was certainly NOT the intent.... The intent was to share how bullet shape is influenced by caliber choice.... and that the SD is influenced by your choice of barrel length and pressure.... That's it.... Period....

Bob

[rifle50]

No problem Bob..........The physics and math of your theories I admit are above my pay grade But do know what works in the field downrange, with air and powder rifles and  do make it happen.......You keep writing,  and I will keep shooting   
Carl

Carl, thank you for your constructive criticism.... If you had read through this thread, I refer to ballistics up to 1100 yards (1000 M), so you should consider that as part of my concept of "long range".... Although I did use drawings of BBTs to ILLUSTRATE the differences in shape between bullets of the same SD that were .458, .308, and .257 cal.... I did that only because I have them handy.... The same thing applies to FB bullets, or GC bullets....

Air can only push a certain SD to a certain velocity from a given barrel length and pressure.... I would think you would not dispute that.... Larger caliber bullets have a fatter shape for the same SD, and therefore a poorer FF.... This skews the BC in favour of smaller calibers.... Yes, there are limits, and I pointed that out as well....

If you think this is a advertisement for NOE, then I apologize, that was certainly NOT the intent.... The intent was to share how bullet shape is influenced by caliber choice.... and that the SD is influenced by your choice of barrel length and pressure.... That's it.... Period....

Bob

[oneshot61]

There are a lot of good bullet designs out there. Cast and swagged, lead and non lead.  I can only speak from personal experience and that is this. I shoot at roughly 120 yards and under with my air rifles, distance dictated by caliber and what game I am hunting. Ive shot less than moa at that distance out of 4 of my rifles, only my 308 Cothran has a non choked barrel. All with the bbt design. I’ve never needed more than one shot to drop what I’m after. That works for me. I also now am shooting some swagged with really good results. If I want to reach further my 7mm or 308 gets the nod. Short distance in a rural setting for pest or predator I use pellets, longer, on the farm or lease,  I use bullets. Everything has its uses and place. Some guns-barrels shoot some bullets-pellets better-worse than others. If you find the one that works in your gun... use it. If it doesn’t .. find one that does. Half the fun is in the journey.
 

[MJP]

I'm with Carl on this one, where are all the group pictures for the supposed superior boat tail bullets?
Can't remeber seen a single picture even of a decent group let alone one that was better than gascheck or plain base?

This is not just for you Bob, but for anyone who has shot BBTs POST SOME PICTURES PLEASE. Or any BT group pics.

Marko

[nielsenammo]

These pics are not BBT but they are boat tail pics.  The group picture is from Steve Marsh who took second place at EBR with my boat tail bullet.  He was shooting one of Doug's guns that Doug lent to him.  The picture is 100 yards, 4 shots, the day before the competition.

I mainly shoot flat base bullets.  I find boat tail bullets to be hard to shoot well and barrel picky.  This .257 is the best shooting boat tail I have made so far and I have another caliber I ordered a special die to make a boat tail with.

[rifle50]

Nick, Those are Corbin REBATED BT and not quite same as BBT?
I Had the same Corbin Hydro Press you use and made them for 50 BMG and were good performing with powder.I won a  WORLD  CHAMPIONSHIP at 1000 yds making my own bullets in the REBATED BT design ........Yours I am sure are good for air power as BT isn't to long and the lessening of the weight at rear is balanced by the HP in the nose........Bottom line of any design, IS  it accurate, and in a lot of barrels?  With THE BBT's continually HYPED and nothing to prove it works well is my main complaint................Good luck with your products.........Carl 

These pics are not BBT but they are boat tail pics.  The group picture is from Steve Marsh who took second place at EBR with my boat tail bullet.  He was shooting one of Doug's guns that Doug lent to him.  The picture is 100 yards, 4 shots, the day before the competition.

I mainly shoot flat base bullets.  I find boat tail bullets to be hard to shoot well and barrel picky.  This .257 is the best shooting boat tail I have made so far and I have another caliber I ordered a special die to make a boat tail with.

[rintafile]

And in other way.... This is my humble opinion..Have quite a lots of molds well over 100...And on quanitys been casted well quite alot...And getting some data fellows who I've been casted. Been noticed that You can't predict which is better GC or PB bullets. I Know slightest off topic but concerning bullets still... And those diagrams and other is well over my league so I'm not gonna comment on those...


Here is one group shot by me. Bullet is BBT .30 - 135 grain.@ 100M Shot by Beaumont. It was my first time when I shot on that gun. Sadly there is nothing to compare to measurements.. 3 flyers.. or lack of skil to shoot that gun. This one could get tighter when if guns owner shoot that bullet... I think those which are in group are something like 40-50mm @ 100M Just quess can't remember.. I think this is my only data for BBT's

[nielsenammo]

Carl I agree but Marko asked for any BT pics so I provided the ones I had on hand. I am still working on the BT quest and I spent a lot of money on molds that don't work or work well enough.  I am happy with flat base bullets, I think they shoot great in many guns and I try to sell slugs that work in the most guns as possible.

I also listen to the customers who ask for BT bullets so I try to satisfy the customer base and what they want to buy.  If the right bullet design developes I am all over it but so far the this is the only larger caliber BT that has worked for me at this level. 

This is not just for you Bob, but for anyone who has shot BBTs POST SOME PICTURES PLEASE. Or any BT group pics.

Marko

[MJP]

Yeah Nick is right, I did ask about any BTs, but specially for bbt, thanks Teemu, I totally forgot that test that it was with bbt.
Thanks Nick, I was kind of hoping to see one of your bullets in for a comparison.

The main point was, superiority of the boat tail as it is hyped, and I want to see pictures of that.
I know I'm not going to see many longer range groups than 100m or yds. But it's over longer distance where the BT should rule over the conventional types. Longer ranges anyone?

Sorry for high jacking your thread Bob.

Marko

[rintafile]

thanks Teemu, I totally forgot that test that it was with bbt.
Marko

That was poor test...Just picking 10 bullets and shoot it on bad support. And my first time with that gun. I called that luck  Wierd thing on this matter is... Both fellows who own's those Beaumont's never asked to test that bullet by self  Well not my problem. But it could be good...If first timer gets even that group. Yeah sorry for off topic

[Gut2Fish]

I for one liked this thread. The treatise on SD and limited air power for caliber selection was educational and eye opening. Personally it's making me rethink .357 in favor of .308. It's a rare and wonderful thing when a thread can be so well thought out and educational. The drag function links provided appreciated.

With the GK Drag Function a person can mock up a bullet to find center of gravity. That's a handy tool as working that out on paper is time consuming. Math and the age of reason is a wonderful thing. For those on some sort of witch hunt you should watch Monty Python's satire The Holy Grail. Exclaiming "she turned me into a newt!" will never overturn the science of her weighing less than a duck to prove it.

[oneshot61]

Ace precision .25 ..1/18 twist.. 100 yards. 950 ish fps, 51 grain,  three in the top hole. Retained energy, 80 ft lbs at the target. Stock gun.. I think this bullet was designed for 1/16??

[rsterne]

I'm not quite sure where this thread went off the rails (well I am, thank you Carl).... but it has turned from an informative thread about caliber choice into a "lets bash Bob's Boattails" thread.... Since that is the case, here are a few FACTS....

I started the idea of using boattails for airguns because they have a PROVEN aerodynamic drag reduction over flat based bullets.... I originally (as most do) thought that their primary advantage was in the high Supersonic, but in fact boattails reduce the drag by a higher percentage Subsonic and Transonic than Supersonic.... There are lots of examples of drag calculators, based on hard science and testing, that can give you some idea of the possible drag reduction, and consequently lower susceptibility to a crosswind (their primary advantage).... I cite as an example the Lapua 200 gr. Subsonic 7.62 (.308) bullet, which uses a rebated boattail design.... When doing my initial research, I used a lot of the dimensions from the Corbin website as goals.... http://www.corbins.com/specs.htm#rbt .... Carl has mistakenly said that my BBTs use a longer boattail than most, but in fact almost all my boattail designs are SHORTER than Corbin.... A quick look at the .257 cal 112 gr. drawing in the first post, and the dimensions listed by Corbin will tell the "tail".... I can only approach such a long, thin boattail as Corbin use with my longest, heaviest BBT designs, and in fact only 2 have ever been made that approach the Corbin dimensions, the 200 gr. .308 cal Whiteout, and the .257 cal 112 gr..... ALL of the other BBT designs that have been made so far have SHORTER boattails.... This is mostly from necessity, because you need enough length for the nose Ogive and the mid-body (bearing length).... so long boattails like Corbin use are impractical for most airgun use.... This is particularly true in the larger calibers, where a very long bullet would have a SD too high to reach any reasonable velocity to be considered for long range use.... In fact, when I am approached to design a relative light, large caliber BBT, I refuse, because there is simply not enough available length for a boattail.... For the explanation of the relationship between SD (weight and length) and caliber, to barrel length and pressure, I refer you to the first post in this thread....

I have NEVER made any accuracy claims for my bullets, and the reason is simple.... I do not currently have the time (I run a Motel during "shooting" season) or resources (read that as a zillion different airguns) to do the required testing.... Any experienced airgunner knows full well that some bullets work in some guns, and some do not.... This is no different than chasing down the ideal pellet.... Rather than keep my ideas and designs to myself, I have published them freely for ANYONE to try out.... Anyone that can read can find out why boattails have lower drag.... I use the same REBATED BOATTAIL design used by Corbin and Lapua because what has been written about it makes sense.... Here are two of the best articles about that feature....

http://www.corbins.com/rbt.htm   ....   http://www.swage.com/ftp/rbt.pdf

You will note that my ideas and designs lean heavily on the data and articles by Corbin, something I freely admit.... Why reinvent the wheel, when a perfectly good working one can move your wagon efficiently.... I did have one additional reason for choosing the rebated boattail design.... In the limited casting I have done, I have noticed that Flat Base bullets tend to have distorted bases from the shearing action of the Sprue Plate.... Gas Check designs have less of this problem.... In addition, with a Gas Check or Rebated Boattail design, the last part to leave contact with the crown at the muzzle is a moulded band, not one that could be damaged by cutting the Sprue.... Makes sense to me that if people spend a lot of time making sure their crown is perfect, why would they want to use a bullet where the last part to contact that crown is wonky.... IMO, you can think of a Gas Check Design (without the GC) as a very mild version of a Rebated Boattail.... and a lot of people swear by them....

I do agree with one thing that Carl said (backed up by Nck's experience).... and that is that using a Hollowpoint to move the Centre of Gravity back is probably a good idea.... That is exactly why I try and encourage the use of HPs.... As far as my involvement with NOE is concerned, after the Whiteout won the EBR, Al Nelson at NOE approached me about getting some of my BBT designs to add to their line of moulds.... He wanted to get into the airgun market, and liked what he saw.... I spent several months designing just about every conceivable weight of BBT for all the common airgun calibers, and those PB calibers commonly used by airgunners.... This runs to over 40 designs.... most of which are indeed simply scaled up or down for the different calibers, but they still needed tweaking, drawing, and dimensioning.... I asked for NOTHING in return, but instead took pride in the fact that Al valued my work enough to give airgunners the opportunity to try out some of the different designs.... The NOE business model for the BBTs is EXACTLY the same as for any other bullet design.... Somebody draws up a bullet, talks about it on the NOE Forum, and if enough guys think it is worth buying, they start up a Group Buy.... When 10 guys sign up, then the moulds are made, and put in the Store.... The guys that took the chance in the Group Buy to try an unproven bullet, get a 15% discount.... My designs are NO DIFFERENT than any others in that regard.... I suppose I could have told Al "no thanks, if you won't pay me I'm not interested".... but my designs are just as unproven as any others you would sign up for in a Group Buy.... so I gladly gave him the opportunity, no strings attached.... The benefit is that airgunners can try out new designs.... I'm sorry if some of you find that idea offensive or repugnant.... or think that when a new BBT goes to Group Buy I shouldn't let you all know about it.... but unless the Mods tell me I am stepping over the line, I plan to continue doing so....

In an ideal world, I would have a zillion different airguns, every make in every possible caliber, and have each design of BBT done up as a Custom Mould, shoot it in every possible gun, tabulate the results, and then only release the ones that work in enough guns to make them commercially viable.... You can bet that if I was doing that, I would expect to get paid for it, and not just a pittance, but big bucks.... I could also quietly go about all my modding of airguns and keep the information to myself.... in fact had I done that I would have wasted a lot less of my time posting, and nobody would ever have heard of Bob Sterne.... Instead, I try and share my ideas with all of you here, with ZERO compensation.... except the flack I get in threads like this.... It reminds me of a friend of mine who had a Laser sailboat he called "Flagellation".... because it felt so good when he stopped.... 

Bob

[MJP]

Well, Bob it was not my intention to bash your desings, just that there has been so much hype about the advantages of the boat tail design, its superior ballistics but I have not seen any pictures of anyone actually shooting them.
So my post was about groups, I'm always interested about a potential bullet but always want to see how it does actually work.
Can you say there have been many pictures from BT groups around here, BBT or other or have I just managed to miss them all?

Marko