Nitrogen from Welding Shop

[o2bmark]

I haven't lined up a welding shop as of yet so this is more of a theoretial question.
If I buy/rent my own nitrogen 6K psi tanks then I'm only using maybe half the gas (down to about 180-220 bar) and paying full fill price for refill.  On the other hand, a welder can use nitrogen down to under 100 psi for his purposes.  As a shielding gas the pressure at the mig/tig torch end is only a few psi I believe.  So, why wouldn't a welding shop be willing to sell me the high pressure part of full tanks?   He could then use the balance and pocket some profit on the part I buy. In the end he will be ordering maybe 1 more cylinder fill a year which I will have paid him for + some profit.   So, is my thinking reasonable? 
I'm of course talking about a shop that DOES welding, not one that supplies welders.

[Taso1000]

What you could do is get a booster and use almost all the nitrogen in the tank.  The 3000 psi and lower nitrogen can be compressed to 4500 psi for an scba tank or gun.  You could even run the booster off compressed air and supply the compressor side with nitrogen.

I hope that makes sense.

Taso

[Horatio]

I haven't lined up a welding shop as of yet so this is more of a theoretial question.
If I buy/rent my own nitrogen 6K psi tanks then I'm only using maybe half the gas (down to about 180-220 bar) and paying full fill price for refill.  On the other hand, a welder can use nitrogen down to under 100 psi for his purposes.  As a shielding gas the pressure at the mig/tig torch end is only a few psi I believe.  So, why wouldn't a welding shop be willing to sell me the high pressure part of full tanks?   He could then use the balance and pocket some profit on the part I buy. In the end he will be ordering maybe 1 more cylinder fill a year which I will have paid him for + some profit.   So, is my thinking reasonable? 
I'm of course talking about a shop that DOES welding, not one that supplies welders.

If time was infinite and labor free your idea is reasonable.

[Doug Wall]

As far as I know, Nitrogen isn't used much in welding shops. Helium and Argon are used most, and CO2 is also used (Since I'm not a commercial welder, I may be missing some use for Nitrogen). In any case, due to weight and cost, I think that most shops wouldn't be using 6K psi tanks. The common gas tanks run more like 2200psi. Since the 6000 psi tanks weigh close to 200 lbs empty, it isn't really feasible to move them around much.

[Horatio]

As far as I know, Nitrogen isn't used much in welding shops. Helium and Argon are used most, and CO2 is also used (Since I'm not a commercial welder, I may be missing some use for Nitrogen). In any case, due to weight and cost, I think that most shops wouldn't be using 6K psi tanks. The common gas tanks run more like 2200psi. Since the 6000 psi tanks weigh close to 200 lbs empty, it isn't really feasible to move them around much.

I’ve never seen Nitrogen used. I’ve fabbed stairs, handrail sections, man lift landing platforms, ladders. Cages, etc. But I’m not a real welder.

I like using T-1 wire more than straight mig when I can. T-1 in .045 with a 75-25 CO2 Argon mix. Mig is like snail speed compared to that setup. Talking 450 IPM and the gas cup never fills with spatter.

In the field 232 for all position and 305 for flat.

[o2bmark]

So, welders are not nitrogen consumers. Wonder who are the main nitrogen consumers?  On tap beer?
I’m really getting pushed towards a compressor (filtered dry air type) and my main problem is I hate to buy Chicomm. They gave us Vietnam and now N Korea. Taiwan maybe.  New Bauer just a little too much and it could be made in China for all I know.

[Privateer]

Nitrogen is used mostly in high end SS welding like Nuke power stations and Submarines.

[T3PRanch]

HP N2 is also used in the oil field. I purchased an Altaros booster and a bottle to bottle kit for just this reason. The booster runs from air and with an input of N2 to the second stage at less than 100 bar you can drain those N2 bottles dry! I have 2 of the 6K bottles cascaded and both are at 2800 psi. I have a regulator on it to allow input to the booster at the proper level. I fill from booster to a SCBA bottle till I reach 4500 psi.

The same booster setup can be used for Helium too or changed back to original configuration to compress air!

[RogerB]

HP N2 is also used in the oil field. I purchased an Altaros booster and a bottle to bottle kit for just this reason. The booster runs from air and with an input of N2 to the second stage at less than 100 bar you can drain those N2 bottles dry! I have 2 of the 6K bottles cascaded and both are at 2800 psi. I have a regulator on it to allow input to the booster at the proper level. I fill from booster to a SCBA bottle till I reach 4500 psi.

The same booster setup can be used for Helium too or changed back to original configuration to compress air!

Thurmond,

Thanks for the info here.  What pressure do you regulate the nitrogen to for the 2nd stage?  How much plumbing was involved to make this change?  I sent Altaros an email asking about this and they did not reply.

Thanks in advance for any additional info.

Roger Barker
Middlefield, Ohio

[Taso1000]

Roger,

This video will help you see the two separate systems and where you can split the intake to supply nitrogen to the high compression side.



Thanks,

Taso

[RogerB]

Taso,

Thanks!  It looks like all you need to do is disconnect the "T connection" at point C, plug the output to C, and connect your nitrogen to C.  Looks easy enough.

Thanks again,

Roger Barker
Middlefield, OH

[T3PRanch]

I regulate the N2 to 1200. Here is the video of how to replumb the booster. They sell the kit for $30 delivered.

[RogerB]

Thurmond,

Thank you!  Wow - this is more complicated than I expected.  Thurmond, does your setup still use your shop compressor for the drive air?  Can someone explain why are the tubing changes are needed?

Roger Barker
Middlefield, OH

[douglasr]

We use N2 as a shielding has for pipe welding stainless steel in the chemical industry, for purge only

[Taso1000]

Thurmond,

Thank you!  Wow - this is more complicated than I expected.  Thurmond, does your setup still use your shop compressor for the drive air?  Can someone explain why are the tubing changes are needed?

Roger Barker
Middlefield, OH

There are two intermingled systems on the Altaros booster.  One system makes the booster function, ie. makes the piston move back and forth.  The other system needs input from the gas you want to compress (nitrogen) and then it is compressed to 4500 psi. 

The way the Altaros is delivered is the both systems use one input.  The function side uses a lot of gas.  So instead of wasting clean and dry nitrogen on that side you could instead hook up a shop compressor and supply air.

There is a very small power adapter but all it does is supply electricity to the controller electronics.

I hope that makes more sense.

Thanks,

Taso

[kbstingwing]

Nitrogen is also used in the Air Conditioning and Refrigeration industry, it's used to purge air from pipes to prevent soot and oxidation when brazing also to pressure test systems for leaks and used as a holding charge to prevent moisture contamination, most tanks used in the field are lower pressure type since they are easier to carry than the big heavy tanks...... Bad enough having to carry 3/4's of the Vans contents up to the roof and then lug more heavy junk, Glad I'm done with that.......

[Kinetic45^]

Just what I am doing with my booster and shop air, separate the drive air from the N2 intensification.

Note that instead of the very expensive and hard to get filled 6K bottles that, at least in my area have to be special ordered at the welding shops and sent off to be filled (taking a month to get back sometimes!  Then there was the problem that I bought a bottle used and afte 2 years had to get it hydroed and it took 2 months to get back and IT WAS NOT MY OWNER BOTTLE and Ithe welding supply shop wanted to charge me for 'leasing their bottle' - I never did git my 'owner' bottle back, it was lost)  I use the common 300 CuFt bottles which have 2250 PSI.  Most welding supply commonly stock the 250 CuFt tanks which is the same size as the O2 tank on most Oxyacetylene rigs but if you call around some stock the 300's.

I just swapped out my 300 tank with CGA580 valve N2 cylinder Friday and at Airgas locally paid $66.91 for 304 SCF ( plus state tax 4.73 +county tax 0.39 + city tax 1.14 ) so 'free' air is cheaper but I like N2 because it is DRY and in the long run I have spent more time and funds dealing with corroded tank interiors causing failed hydros and damaged gun internals so to me the price equals out and N2 is cheaper of my time and frustration.

If you compress your own air you MUST extract the moisture or you will eventually have problems.  Not fun to disassemble your PCP and find it full of red rust and aluminum white powder!  Or to have the Hydro shop call you and tell you your +$700.00 88 CuFt 4500psi Carbon Fiber tank failed it's five year hydro due to internal corrosion from moisture (now multiply that by 2x 66 CuFt and one 68 CuIn tanks that failed TOO! )  Either dry your air or use commercially sold dried gas.  Scuba air is usually dried but paintball varies and I bought fills from shops that were not drying their air.   Heads up: And most driers sold to airgunners don't do very many cubic feet before they are saturated then the moist air goes on thru.

Note: I built my own drier system that refrigerates the shop compressed air to condense the moisture out of it then run it through a desiccant THEN to the booster when I want HPA that's real air.

[Doug Wall]

From the above post by Kinetic45:
"I just swapped out my 300 tank with CGA580 valve N2 cylinder Friday and at Airgas locally paid $66.91 for 304 SCF ( plus state tax 4.73 +county tax 0.39 + city tax 1.14 ) so 'free' air is cheaper but I like N2 because it is DRY and in the long run I have spent more time and funds dealing with corroded tank interiors causing failed hydros and damaged gun internals so to me the price equals out and N2 is cheaper of my time and frustration.

  If you compress your own air you MUST extract the moisture or you will eventually have problems.  Not fun to disassemble your PCP and find it full of red rust and aluminum white powder!  Or to have the Hydro shop call you and tell you your +$700.00 88 CuFt 4500psi Carbon Fiber tank failed it's five year hydro due to internal corrosion from moisture (now multiply that by 2x 66 CuFt and one 68 CuIn tanks that failed TOO! )  Either dry your air or use commercially sold dried gas. Scuba air is usually dried but paintball varies and I bought fills from shops that were not drying their air.   Heads up: And most driers sold to airgunners don't do very many cubic feet before they are saturated then the moist air goes on thru.

Note: I built my own drier system that refrigerates the shop compressed air to condense the moisture out of it then run it through a desiccant THEN to the booster when I want HPA that's real air.
« Last Edit: Today at 12:07:56 AM by Kinetic45^ »"

This should be put in bold letters and stuck permanently to the top of the page! Too many people are very nonchalant about moisture from hand pumping, and using their own compressors without proper filtering.
[

[RogerB]

Carl,
Thanks for your post here.  Do you use the Altaros booster?  If so, would you please explain the plumbing changes you made to separate the drive air from you shop compressor from the nitrogen?

Thanks again,

Roger Barker
Middlefield, Ohio

Just what I am doing with my booster and shop air, separate the drive air from the N2 intensification.

Note that instead of the very expensive and hard to get filled 6K bottles that, at least in my area have to be special ordered at the welding shops and sent off to be filled (taking a month to get back sometimes!  Then there was the problem that I bought a bottle used and afte 2 years had to get it hydroed and it took 2 months to get back and IT WAS NOT MY OWNER BOTTLE and Ithe welding supply shop wanted to charge me for 'leasing their bottle' - I never did git my 'owner' bottle back, it was lost)  I use the common 300 CuFt bottles which have 2250 PSI.  Most welding supply commonly stock the 250 CuFt tanks which is the same size as the O2 tank on most Oxyacetylene rigs but if you call around some stock the 300's.

I just swapped out my 300 tank with CGA580 valve N2 cylinder Friday and at Airgas locally paid $66.91 for 304 SCF ( plus state tax 4.73 +county tax 0.39 + city tax 1.14 ) so 'free' air is cheaper but I like N2 because it is DRY and in the long run I have spent more time and funds dealing with corroded tank interiors causing failed hydros and damaged gun internals so to me the price equals out and N2 is cheaper of my time and frustration.

If you compress your own air you MUST extract the moisture or you will eventually have problems.  Not fun to disassemble your PCP and find it full of red rust and aluminum white powder!  Or to have the Hydro shop call you and tell you your +$700.00 88 CuFt 4500psi Carbon Fiber tank failed it's five year hydro due to internal corrosion from moisture (now multiply that by 2x 66 CuFt and one 68 CuIn tanks that failed TOO! )  Either dry your air or use commercially sold dried gas.  Scuba air is usually dried but paintball varies and I bought fills from shops that were not drying their air.   Heads up: And most driers sold to airgunners don't do very many cubic feet before they are saturated then the moist air goes on thru.

Note: I built my own drier system that refrigerates the shop compressed air to condense the moisture out of it then run it through a desiccant THEN to the booster when I want HPA that's real air.

[Dockey 454]

Getting back to the original question. All I've used is Nitrogen from a 6k, 440 cu ft bottle. These 6k bottles are dried, and purified, and also used in the medical field. Once the bottle is cracked it needs to be drained, and the whole process has to be started again. That's the way my supplier explained it to me. My fills are 100, and rental is 110 a year. Very reasonable price, compared to most. Buying one of these bottles isn't a option way to expensive.
   Tom