Regulation lost a lot of it's "magic" for me.

[Ribbonstone]

From comapring a P-rod and a Spa PCP spistol...both about the same 65cc's..same fill pressures..same  caliber....same pellets..same energy level.




I got 30-31 shots inside of 2% velocity varation at 15 foot pounds with the SPA

Can get 24 shots inside of 4% and 13 shots inside oif 2% for the P-rod at the same  15 foot pound enegy.  Of those, were 12 shots inside of 2%.

Not like I'm griping about it.  For JUST THE 2% shots, the p-rod used about 600psi of air.  For 3X the number of 2% shots, the regulated SPA used 3X as much air (1800psi).

And NONE OF THIS COUNTS for accuracy,,,,2% isn't much of a differnece, certainly (and proovably) less than all the other varaions. 

But lets (illusionally) assume "equality" with only velocity as the variation.

What I realized...in comparsion to non regulated PCP's of the same volume and basically the same size is this:

Basically, the same air use for either an unregulated 2% 12shots (600psi)...or a regulated 2%  36 shots (1800psi) is about equal.

Regulation isn't the "end all"...it's not "magic"...and it does take some energy out of the system to actually fucntion the mechanical regulator..but all-in-all, regulation doesn't equal some fantastic air-use (efficnecty) increase.

Regulation basically gives you the top of the shot count graph "plateau"  for a longer shot count, but not a better air use. 



Me...I'm not in a rush...can shoot 15 2% shots, put in 20 pumps (600psi) or shoot 45 2% shots and put back in 60 pump strokes (1800psi)...it's all the same at the end of the day.

[anti-squirrel]

Thanks for bringing this up, Ribbs.  I've been following along on many of your comparisons between your single-shot rifles and "low end" shooters.  I've been finding that in the end, I still have to put a certain amount of effort in in order to extract a certain amount of energy out (which coincidentally affirms that energy in = energy out).  If I do my part and find the most-accurate pellet, it's a total wash between regulated versus non-regulated.  I don't have the wide range of guns to choose from that you do, but there are certainly parallels, and for a guy like me that uses his airguns for hunting, pesting, and plinking, I don't feel an overwhelming urge to focus on regulated airguns.

If I was punching tiny holes in paper competitively, that would likely change.

[Marc In Iowa]

I got 30-31 shots inside of 2% velocity varation at 15 foot pounds with the SPA

... all-in-all, regulation doesn't equal some fantastic air-use (efficnecty) increase.

See the comments about the Maximus Euro at 4:45 in this review video.



See the attached photo of 33 shots using just 500 psi; extreme spread of 1.6%.

[rsterne]

Nice comparison, Ribbon.... and that string on the Euro-Maximus works out to 1.39 FPE/CI for 33 shots at a 1.6% ES.... NICE !!!

Bob

[Ribbonstone]

It's not that I disblieve that lower vel. varation is a good thing...it is.  Doubtful  as much of a help to be at 1-2% varation as folks want it to be; it's not going to magically make accuracy increase. Way too many other factors at play,,,and the longer the distance, the more those other factors get to playing.

I just don't find regulation to be the magic cure.  It does make for longer strings of low vel. variation shots, but does so by running over a much larger pressure range. 

Given the same volume, if I can get 20 great shots with 600psi of air use....am I really behind a regulated rifle that can give 60 great shot with 1800psi of air use?

Regulation won't really hurt anything (well...does add another level of complexity and another variable in tuning) and allows a longer time between refills.

But I do not think regulation is a "must".  There is normally a short run of really uniform shots in a non-regulated rifle where everything is in pretty good balance.   If you find that spot, and live inside the pressure range of those shots, can have very low velocity spreads.

Yeah...it's often a short run.  The more energetic the output, the shorter that run of uniform shots.

Lets start with 4 rifles I will NOT be regulating.  Will leave that to the next owners (yeah...likly the rifles will out last me).


Disco.  Only non-standard internal parts are a lightened striker, slightly reduced transfer port, and a different spring (which likely came from a first year Disco).  No reg, no anti bounce device.





Adjusted .177 Pmeua (old Single shot Hatsan). Did get a factory replacement air tube, and I closed off all but one of the valve ports.  Lot of testing and adjusting, but it's all factory guts.






Youn kind of expect the little AA/CZ 200's to shoot well, and both of these do.  Just some careful adjusting of the supplied adjustments and a lot of testing will often find a really sweet spot.  Only non-factory parts are the LDC's and one non-factory replacment screw.

Also have some parts in these rifles that act as a kind of limiter...not a regulator, but it does kind of act like 1/2 of one.



The .177 can be reset to produce a longer 4% shot count, but for some reason this setting always has more 2% shots. It's not as efficient over all as it could be, but it's the best at 2% shooting I could find, so I live with it's air use.



And something nice happened to the older .22 version at one setting...and I've left it there.




With that said, I do keep a few regulated rifles.

One of my favorites is also the simplest.  HPA bottled QB79 carbine.  Simple, short, heavy, and kind of "clunky".  Another low powered airgun, but set up for +200 shots per fill at 13 foot pounds (with heavy pellets).  I pretty much made it for ratting.  Nothing wrong with that old Tasco 3-9X, but on this rifle's use (low light ratting) it stays on 3X.



So how can +200 good shots not be great?  Well, it gets those 200 shots over 2200psi of air use.  It's not really inefficient....but it's not some super-efficent critter-getter either (about 1.3 fpe/cuin).

Does it shoot "better" becasue of regulation.  Nope...shoots as well as it did when the barrel was on a 12gr. co2 rifle going the same speed....just shoots a whole lot more.

[triggertreat]

Yep, I agree with Ribbs on this.  On my unregulated .22 Synrod using an 18.13gr and 1000 PSI averaging 29.2 FPE I am able to get 40 shots just under a 2% ES with a 1.3 FPE/CI efficiency.  All stock ports and valve.  Only mods are a TSS (for a hammer gap) and a lighter MDS hammer.  If I had continued shooting down to a 4% ES I would've probably got a few more shots too.  The best similar regulated tune I've seen was 50 shots using 1000 PSI but with a 4.32% ES at 1.77 FPE/CI averaging 28.3 FPE.  This is why I never regulated mine.  I am curious though with the new SS valve if this may change my opinion on regulating mine.


However, when it comes to opening up the port for more power, it does become much harder to control the ES and that is when a regulator shines more plus the ability to tune closer to max fill, but with more work and headaches and expense dealing with a regulator's requirements and issues.

[ackuric]

Don't forget that regulation reduces the required hammer strike (cocking force) generally by a good margin(30-50%~). Allows you to run lighter hammers or very light springs. Hammer bounce isn't as violent and the action is much more tamer in a regulated rifle versus unregulated.

In some rifles with 4-4.5k+ fill pressures it would be incredibly hard to design a valve to do well unregulated, especially in calibers over .357 cal! Not to say 4k~ fill rifles are the standard for the future but when it comes to very large ports and high fill pressures you can have a valve that is INCREDIBLY hard to open. Once regulated @ 2500~ the energy required to open the valve opposed to @ 4k is around 40% easier, which allows smaller sealing margins on the poppet which also allows the valve to open easier...

I personally feel the pros far outweigh the cons when it comes to regulating an air gun but certainly don't feel it is a must, more of a to each their own kind of thing. If you're satisfied with the results you're getting unregulated then there is nothing wrong with that!

-Matt

[Bob Pratl]

Don't forget that regulation reduces the required hammer strike (cocking force) generally by a good margin(30-50%~). Allows you to run lighter hammers or very light springs. Hammer bounce isn't as violent and the action is much more tamer in a regulated rifle versus unregulated. In some rifles with 4-4.5k+ fill pressures it would be incredibly hard to design a valve to do well unregulated, especially in calibers over .357 cal! Not to say 4k~ fill rifles are the standard for the future but when it comes to very large ports and high fill pressures you can have a valve that is INCREDIBLY hard to open. Once regulated @ 2500~ the energy required to open the valve opposed to @ 4k is around 40% easier, which allows smaller sealing margins on the poppet which also allows the valve to open easier...
I personally feel the pros far outweigh the cons when it comes to regulating an air gun but certainly don't feel it is a must, more of a to each their own kind of thing. If you're satisfied with the results you're getting unregulated then there is nothing wrong with that! -Matt

I agree 100% on using a regulator for the above reasons as well a ruling out all of the variables for maximum consistency to achieve maximum efficiency. Whether it is a powder burner, air gun or a bow and arrow the force on the projectile, as well as it's weight, has to be consistent in order to achieve the same point-of-impact and velocity.

[Taso1000]

Ribbonstone,

First off, great thread as usual!  Your data collection and sharing and analysis is tops!

Now I may be new to airgun tuning but I've always thought regulators were for consistent pressure and thus consistent velocities.  Like you stated, they are doing work so they have to be using some of the compressed air stored energy.  Sure they may bring up efficiency in an inefficient setup but what happens in a rifle already tuned for efficiency? 

The main reason I was ever concerned about efficiency was to bring down muzzle report.  All my guns get enough shots that it's not a concern to me, but I could see if someone wanted to complete a shooting match without refilling.  Then shot count would matter.

I've always thought accurate rifles were most interesting.  I guess some people feel the most efficient rifle is most interesting.  To each his own.  There's room for everyone. 

I just figured I'd kick in my $.02   

Thanks,

Taso

[rsterne]

Interesting to bring up rifles with 4-4.5K fills in .357 cal and then suggest they might be better regulated at 2500.... I can't see anyone getting even close to the same FPE with 60% of the pressure, unless you plan on nearly doubling the barrel length.... but perhaps 4 ft. barrels are OK in some situations....

Personally I don't think regulators are practical in Big Bores with hundreds of FPE because of the huge plenums required.... but again, maybe I'm missing some magic that has occurred recently.... It might be possible in a benchrest gun with double tubes, where one is the plenum and the other the reservoir.... but I'd hate to have to pack it around hunting.... which is what large calibers are usually intended for....

I still think that with few exceptions, where the gun is designed around the purpose, regulators are still for low to medium power applications....

Bob

[oldpro]

Interesting to bring up rifles with 4-4.5K fills in .357 cal and then suggest they might be better regulated at 2500.... I can't see anyone getting even close to the same FPE with 60% of the pressure, unless you plan on nearly doubling the barrel length.... but perhaps 4 ft. barrels are OK in some situations....

Personally I don't think regulators are practical in Big Bores with hundreds of FPE because of the huge plenums required.... but again, maybe I'm missing some magic that has occurred recently.... It might be possible in a benchrest gun with double tubes, where one is the plenum and the other the reservoir.... but I'd hate to have to pack it around hunting.... which is what large calibers are usually intended for....

I still think that with few exceptions, where the gun is designed around the purpose, regulators are still for low to medium power applications....

Bob

I couldn’t agree more!! Use regulators to smooth out the bell curve in a small bore or use it in a mid power gun with huge ports that don’t need big plenums but in a big bore making big power or even mid bores that need plenums over 70cc it just forces the gun to become oversized and not manageable in the field. There’s a right place for Regulators and obvious wrong place.

[avator]

I admit.. I was more interested in a regulator before I got a compressor. Pumping or making the 80 mile round trip to fill tanks made efficiency a factor. Now I just fill and shoot til I lose POI and fill 'er up.

[oldpro]

I admit.. I was more interested in a regulator before I got a compressor. Pumping or making the 80 mile round trip to fill tanks made efficiency a factor. Now I just fill and shoot til I lose POI and fill 'er up.

Efficiency and shot count are not always on the same boat. You can have less efficiency and a higher shot count at the same power if you have a set up that works over a wider pressure spectrum. So yes efficient guns are great but not always the answer.

[WesBob]

Those are sure some amazingly tight es over a large shot count Ribb! I wish I could figure out what I'm doing wrong and get my Qb78 pcp to shoot so well for so many shots! Maybe I have too large a port hole or something out of balance. Super tuning, I agree with es like those regulating isn't really necessary!

[Motorhead]

There are SOOO many PCP air guns that come un-regulated which shoot great !!   Generally when we weigh said specific rifles in a state of factory non regulated to a converted regulated do we generally get debate of which is best.
Being a competitive shooter & hunter ONLY requiring modest 40 ft lbs or less power from his PCP's, REGULATED is the only way to go offering shot to shot consistency over a broad pressure range simply not obtainable in a bell curve tuned un-regulated gun .... IMO.

No different than the folks shooting powder burning guns who are happy with factory loaded ammo arguing with those who hand load .... good enough is, what ever your expectations of good enough is met
Some simply expect & want more which is just a choice made based upon expectations.

[Bob Pratl]

No different than the folks shooting powder burning guns who are happy with factory loaded ammo arguing with those who hand load .... good enough is, what ever your expectations of good enough is met
Some simply expect & want more which is just a choice made based upon expectations.

That's a great explanation Scott. Coming from 40+ years of powder burning bench rest environment I ruled out every variable by gaging, weighing, measuring, timing and reaming every component to get consistence POI's.
Then again, that's me as I am not a hunter because I am a paper puncher and a tinker first. That is why I enjoy Air Gunning because there are so many variables and challenges  to overcome in order to achieve sub MOI's. My grandsons, 8 & 10 where to young for power burners, so not to upset the mothers, I started them shooting air guns and now we are all hooked. I love this site!

[Tom SC]

Me I will take regulated every time as I usually hand pump when I'm at home. How many pump strokes are needed to pressurize a fill hose and crack open the fill valve? All those pumps are wasted and dumped every time I top off a gun. That may mean filling 3 times to every one time on a reg to keep the velocities in the 2% percent sweet spot. That would be 15 pump strokes at least that is wasted.

[vanTeunenbroek]

Very interesting read..
A reg does also take up space in the airtube or the prechamber thus reducing air capacity mainly a problem in small tubes,a reg. On a Theo will reduce the prechamber volume so might need a external prechamber for max power settings in a .25cal
Have 2 rapids In .20 one regged one fastflowed makes very little difference in accuracy but with the regged gun you need shoot slowly or the prechamber will not be at the correct pressure and you will get vertical spread at longer ranges.
A regulated pcp has more parts to adjust/fail so for hunting I prefer the fastflow but setting it up efficiently takes a bit of tinkering.
With a reg tuning is much easier I think..

[Wayne52]

I do like my Dominator, it's regulated and I get a lot of good shots with it.  I think it has a 210cc air tube but I can put 250bar in it.
I think a Huma regulator would probably be much better but this is good enough for me, I've been using the JSB18.13's with it and all shots seem to be very accurate, its me that isn't always so accurate.

[WesBob]

That's sure a nice string Wayne! Lots of consistent shots!
I'm happy with the bstaley mod I did today on my CP-1M, kind of a poor man's regulator in this case, though some different springs should get it even more consistent. Filled to 1800psi (bulk fill set up) I got 39 shots within 25fps( 436-461fps) of each other and 53 within 43fps (423-46. Big change from before the oring!