Going Bulk Fill (?)

[Hoosier Daddy]

With the latest guns I have gotten, I have been given the suggestion of going with Bulk Fill as an option.
 It started with My Sheridan Model F CO2 'Streak. I saw Timmy Mac's adapter and have started reading up on how this is actually performed.
 Then I thought about my Xisico XS60C, I can get a cap from Flying Dragon and left message with Mike M.
My Crosman 160 3rd Variant, and even my SAG AR2078-B (QB-78). I can get a cap from The A guy we can not mention.
I believe these all are also candidates with simply a Bulk fill cap purchase.

 I did find this thread https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=21328
Yesterday I bought a 24oz Tippman CO2 tank and already have a Ninja fill station.





Last night, in bed, the wheels in my head would not stop turning.
I thought that if the fill bottle was held upside down, the liguid would fill the gun only until the pressures equalized and that would be it.
 A while back I read segment by Tom G. on Airgun Academy on his dealings with Bulk Fill but cant find it now. I seem to remember Him actually weighing the tank.
 Any Veterans at Bulk Fill who want to chime in, I am all ears!
*EDIT*
 Here is one question I have. If you bulk fill what keeps the gun's valve from filling with Liquid CO2 when the rifle is point upwards of level?
 Or is that a non-issue? I am guessing the same could happen with a 12g Cart.
 

[Hoosier Daddy]

HA!
Found it...
Working with bulk-fill CO2 guns

[Radrob]

I went that route first but soon found out the bottles go empty fast so I bought a bigger tank and fittings to make it work.  I won't have to worry about a recert since I just exchange bottles and it's been working great on the Crossman 114 and the Maximus.

Here's the cheapest tank I found online https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B018PSYEUK/ref=dp_olp_all_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=all

[Hoosier Daddy]

Thanks Robert,
 Do you know if that bottle has a siphon tube or does it need to be turned upside down?

That got me thinking... Wonder how much one of the cylinders would be from the Pepsi distributor for the soda fountain machines. My Wife is a Bar Manager here and I bet I could swap out empties for fulls at the Lodge.... 

[Radrob]

That bottle doesn't have a tube. I would use the soda bottles if you can get one, you might have to flip it too. I think the machines works on gas not liquid C02.

[Hoosier Daddy]

I have found bulk fill caps for the F 'Dan and the 160 from Mac1... and the XS from Flying Dragon.
But nothing yet on the "Modern" AR2078-B (QB78).... lots of dead links to "Bow and Arrow" guy.

[Hoosier Daddy]

Wait... hold the phone... I just re-read Roberts first post.
I can run my Maximus on dual fuel like the Disco advertises?
 I have been running it teathered to a 48/3000 HPA bottle with a 1600psi output reg. It's sweet spot is between 1600 - 1200 psi.

Dang.... Here I go... classic me.
I just derailed my own thread.

[Radrob]

I have a Max in 22 and have gotten 690fps with it being hot here(90+) and adjusting the PA. I really want to order a 177 barrel to see what fps I can get. If I tone down the Max to about 600fps I can get 50+ shots on 1 fill. Toned down to 500 and it's 79 shots.

I have no help on the caps. Are you looking for a self sealing cap to refill?

[Hoosier Daddy]

Yep... 1/8" npt to accept a Foster male fitting.

[Radrob]

So you just need a 1/8" male to 1/8" female? Is it NPT or BSPP? My Crosman 114 had a BSPP thread but you could make a NPT work.

What gun are we talking about again?

[Barkis]

I have found bulk fill caps for the F 'Dan and the 160 from Mac1... and the XS from Flying Dragon.
But nothing yet on the "Modern" AR2078-B (QB78).... lots of dead links to "Bow and Arrow" guy.

That is because the QB has a different tube arrangement than the older guns, the vent hole is situated differently. If you go to Mac1 http://www.mac1airgunshop.com/crosman-co2-extension-tube-p/m1co2extube.htm he mentions it in the context of his extension tubes. Also, FDAR notes that the bulk fill caps for the XS60c will only fit newer QBmodels after modification.

[Hoosier Daddy]

Here you go Rob...

I have found bulk fill caps for the F 'Dan and the 160 from Mac1... and the XS from Flying Dragon.
But nothing yet on the "Modern" AR2078-B (QB78).... lots of dead links to "Bow and Arrow" guy.

Other than the New Vent hole location everything I have read seems the AR2078-B (QB-78) lends itself well to bulk fill.
I did see that extension tube on Mac1, figured I could use it and the 160 cap if nothing else...

[Barkis]

I'm curious to know what the advantage to bulk fill is other than cheaper refills. I'm not saying cheaper refills are unimportant, but what are the other advantages to it?

[Doug Wall]

Getting the hang of a good bulk fill can be tricky! I have a 20 lb siphon tank that I can use to fill smaller paintball tanks, which I use to fill the guns. The best place to get the large tank is a fire extinguisher supplier. For filling the smaller tanks, I have the empty weight, and the full weight written on the tank for reference. I chill the small tank in the freezer for a while to get the temperature difference needed to get it to fill. A small luggage scale to hang the small tank will give you the weight (actually weight difference) as you fill it.

For filling the gun from the small tank, you also need the temperature difference to drive the liquid flow. You can do this by warming the tank a bit (in the sun maybe), or cooling the gun a bit. A few blank shots with the gun can do that. Sometimes, the fill operation can require an extra hand. Lay the gun flat, or hold muzzle down, hold the tank upside down, open the valve, fire a few blank shots, and you'll have liquid in the gun.

As far as liquid getting in the valve, there's not much you can do, other than putting a baffle/dam, with a hole at the top,  in the gun. Not really a big issue.

[Hoosier Daddy]

I'm curious to know what the advantage to bulk fill is other than cheaper refills. I'm not saying cheaper refills are unimportant, but what are the other advantages to it?

Many more shots per fill.
12g cart x2 carts =24gram of Co2
2oz per fill @28 gram per oz = 56 grams of Co2

[Hoosier Daddy]

I just got a call from Mike M at Flying Dragon. He can add a second o-ring groove to his cap so it will work on both the XS60C and the new model AR2078-B.
Ordering tonight!

[Radrob]

NICE!  Time to get that big tank.

[Ribbonstone]

Guess the three main benefits are:

1.Although some paintball fields/shops (and they are getting fewer and fewer of those) have gone all air....some haven't.  Think the typical cost if sbout $5 for a 20oz tank.  So would paying something like $.25 per ounce.

Consider than 12gr. turn out to cost about $1.05- $1.50 per once (depending where you buy them) and AirSourse type (88-90gr.) cylinders work out to about  $1.90-$2.00 an ounce.

(and make no mistake...co2 shooting is about the amount of gas used, not the container it comes in.)

As for large size (20 pound) tanks....been a long time.  Last time bulk filling, didn't actually own a 20ppound tank.  Industrail gas supply compnay...I  put a deposit down, agreed to a set price for 20 pounds of co2, and would drop off their empty tank and pick up a filled tank (getting a privately owned tank refilled required you wait to the next day...so two trips to the place for owning yourown tank, and the hydro testing was your problem).

2. More shots from a full fill.  Filling fully doesn't mean there is 100% liquid co2 in there.  I've used the same ration of volume to co2 as paintball tanks use (which means there is both gas and liquid in the tubes when "full).  Something like 43cc's of volume per ounce of co2 hasn't caused me any problems.

BUT (ain't there always a "but"), a full fill isn't so easy to get.   Once you get even 1 ounce of liquid co2 into a tube, co2 does what co2 does, and expends/convertsfor liquid to gas, and has the same pressure as that big old 20 pound tank.  It's not like air, which just flows until the tanks equalize in pressure.

The profession paintball shop had a co2 pump system in place....would just hang the tank on a scale, hook it up to the hose, and flip a switch to a slow "thump-thump" pump  and fill co2 into the tank until the weight was right (weight of empty tank +20 oz for a 20oz tank fill).


Current sporting goods shot just hooks the supply tank to the paintball tank, and it pretty much evens out at about 14oz. in a 20oz tank (and that during warm months...the fill tank is back on the loading dock (hot) and trhe paintball tank is store-temp. (cool).

Which is your key to getting at least the first bulk fill to "full". Cold gun/warm tank (but not hot).  Set the fill tank out (but in the shade) during summer and the rifle inside tha A/C house.  In cool/cold weather, reverse that (rifle outside in the cold/ fill tank inside in the warm).


Of course, if using a large volume  rifle tube, even a half fill will give a lot of shots.

3. (And saved for last for a reason) SOME rifles show a speed gain with bulk fill.   Some don't shot "jack" for a gain. 

Worst are the converted valves that still have a little piercing nipple on the valve body ("Plinkster" is one of these).  No benifit from smooth gas flow, as all the gas that is ever going to get to the valve is going to come in from that tiny-tiny hole in the piercing nipple.

Dual 12gr. designs (like the QB) with a pretty big opening for the piercing pin to move back and forth show a gain.

Modded valves, where the gas recieving end of the valve is wide open (no hope of ever going back to 12gr.) show the most gain.



Just an aside:

EVERY late Spring (soon to be fall) there are posts like this.  It's a cycle here on the forums I've watched for years and years.

Something about approcaing cold weather and co2 shooters....which I am one of....but basically, my rule has been that if it's cold enough outside that you need a thick sweater or a coat, leave the co2 rifles inside.

[Hoosier Daddy]

Thank you Ribbonstone for chiming in. Your posts are one of the references that lead me here.
So now, as Paul Harvey used to say, "The rest... of the story".

See this post for reference. https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=131549.msg1302811#msg1302811

I have another 48/3000 Paint Ball tank with a reg set at 1000 psi output. I plan on using PCP air tethered to shoot these listed guns in the upcoming winter months outdoors.
This Bulk Fill combination would be for Summer months and indoors in the winter, think 70-68 degrees.

Now, the end caps would be needed to utilize in both scenarios. So that lead me here.
I wanted to dot the I's and cross the T's to be getting bulk fill in the summer and PCP in the winter using the least amount of accessories.
 works in my head any way.
Today I spoke to Mike M at flying Dragon and ordered his cap and then called Timmy Mack at Mac1 and have the adapter for the Model F 'Dan on it's way.
Last piece of the puzzle would be the cap for the 160.. Mac1 was out of stock at the moment. 
 

[Radrob]

I'll give you another tip I noticed. I bought a good re-Certed tank and when I went to fill they just swapped it out. The only question was do you want to keep this tank then come back tomorrow. So I say just swap and then the says aluminium or steel. The moral is don't buy a pretty tank unless you're gonna wait a day to get filled and don't worry about it being good. You also need to shop around the welding stores, some are 25% cheaper than others.