Condor SS setting it up and interpreting chrony data

[Ooops]

Hi all,

I’m a newcomer to world of PCP and in particular chronographs. Inspired by the likes of  TAG, this forum and in particular the posts of our very own “only1harry” and “onebaddj”
I’ve begun the process of setting up my .22 Condor SS. I’ve been using a “Caldwell Premium Chronograph kit” as my primary tool. As an Apple type I find the connectivity with my iPhone and iPad particularly useful. The CSS is fitted with a TT quick change Top Hat.

You’ll know from the posts of those two gentlemen and others that setting up entails experimenting with fill pressures and various combinations of power wheel, inserts, spacers and pellets. So far it seems to be going quite well, of course I have had the benefit of the hard work that others have put in to guide me.

After a few false starts I arrived at a base line configuration of;
      pw1/1 or lowest possible

      fill pressure of 150bar/ 2200psi

      end pressure 100bar / 1500psi
      I stop shooting when I see a significant drop in FPS, for example if all the shots have been in 900‘ I stop when fps drops to the 800s
      I have to guess the pressure. I’d like to be accurate with this but the gauge on my TT tank adapter has insufficient graduations on it. I try to get an 
           idea when I’m refilling but often forget to make a not of it

            How are you all able to give such accurate end of shoot figures for pressure?
            Where can I source decent 1/8” NPT male thread gauges with a scale in bar?

      Inserts: #1 1020fps & no insert which if IIRC is 50 to 100fps above the standard top hat
      spacers behind the top hat are .76mm, 5mm & .25mm / .03”, .02” & .01”

             How do you efficiently sand down some thing that small? How do you hold it?
             I’ve tried every thing and I’ve ended up with the sides of finger nails and finger prints missing. And worst of all the washers are not as even as I’d
             like

So far I’ve accumulated about twenty sets of data and I now need to analyse that information be able to see what direction the next round of testing should take. This is where I’d like to call on your collective expertise to help me improve my knowledge of what its telling me. I’d like to understand both the general parameters that non regulated PCPs perform well within and those specific to the .22 Condor SS

The Caldwell presents data as follows;
PF      : I’ve no idea what this is
Fps Average   : straight forward
Fps minimum : straight forward
Fps maximum: straight forward
Spread   : difference between min & max fps
Std Deviation: the avg FPS difference from shot to shot
 
At what point does spread have a negative impact?
Is a spread of 100fps over 40 shots ok?
What’s the significance of Standard Deviation?
What is extreme deviation?
   
FPS:
Fps seems straight forward, all a combination of fill pressure, power wheel setting, size of washer behind the top hat, insert size and staying sub sonic. I’d like to keep the power wheel at its lowest setting of 1/1

Given that I’m starting at 150bar/2200 and allowing up to 50bar/750psi for shots I’m trying to stay within the 900s but I’m finding my self in the high 800s. Is this an issue?

Here’s are a couple of examples, because I’ve dropped the fill pressure theres no curve just the gradual decay of the spread. Is that a problem?

Are the shot to shot fps numbers close enough to be useable?
You can tell from that last question that all I’ve done so far is shoot across the chrony indoors. I’ll try and shoot groups at 28m/30yd in the next couple of days.

What does PF at the top of column four stand for?

#18  H&N Baracuda 21.14gr
.22 CSS   0.5mm/.02” washer   pw1/1    #1 insert    150bar/2200psi fill

#   FPS   FT-LBS   PF   fpe 40   804   30.35   17    33 39   805   30.42   17.02    38   811   30.88   17.14    37   808   30.65   17.08    36   814   31.11   17.21    35   812   30.96   17.17    34   818   31.41   17.29    33   827   32.11   17.48    32   821   31.65   17.36    31   828   32.19   17.5    30   827   32.11   17.48    29   827   32.11   17.48    28   828   32.19   17.5    27   830   32.34   17.55    26   835   32.73   17.65    25   842   33.28   17.8    24   839   33.05   17.74    23   842   33.28   17.8    22   849   33.84   17.95    21   852   34.08   18.01    20   852   34.08   18.01    19   853   34.16   18.03    18   861   34.8           18.2    17   855   34.32   18.07    16   868   35.37   18.35    15   861   34.8           18.2    14   859   34.64   18.16    13   862   34.88   18.22    12   866   35.21   18.31    11   862   34.88   18.22    10   869   35.45   18.37    9   877   36.11   18.54    8   877   36.11   18.54    7   881   36.44   18.62    6   880   36.36   18.6    5   881   36.44   18.62    4   ERROR 3          3   865   35.13   18.29    2   870   35.54   18.39    1   870   35.54   18.39    Avg   StdDev   Min   Max   Spread 845.8    23.9   804   881   77

#10  JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy 18.13gr
.22 CSS   0.5mm/.02” washer   pw1/4    #1 insert    150bar/2200psi fill

#   FPS   FT-LBS   PF   fpe 40   849   29.02   15.39   31.766 39   850   29.09   15.41    38   852   29.23   15.45    37   852   29.23   15.45    36   859   29.71   15.57    35   859   29.71   15.57    34   860   29.78   15.59    33   867   30.27   15.72    32   866   30.2            15.7    31   868   30.34   15.74    30   874   30.76   15.85    29   868   30.34   15.74    28   873   30.69   15.83    27   874   30.76   15.85    26   878   31.04   15.92    25   880   31.18   15.95    24   869   30.41   15.75    23   891   31.96   16.15    22   891   31.96   16.15    21   891   31.96   16.15    20   897   32.4           16.26    19   901   32.69   16.34    18   898   32.47   16.28    17   901   32.69   16.34    16   905   32.98   16.41    15   906   33.05   16.43    14   909   33.27   16.48    13   914   33.64   16.57    12   915   33.71   16.59    11   912   33.49   16.53    10   903   32.83   16.37    9   915   33.71   16.59    8   910   33.34   16.5    7   904   32.9           16.39    6   916   33.78   16.61    5   918   33.93   16.64    4   916   33.78   16.61    3   904   32.9           16.39    2   903   32.83   16.37    1   900   32.61   16.32    Avg   StdDev   Min   Max   Spread 888   22.2           849    918    69

Here’s another that follows the same theme except that the average fps is exactly what I was hoping for
 
#11   JSB Exact Jumbo 15.89gr   .22 CSS   .5mm/.02” washer  #1 insert pw1/1 150bar/2200 fil

#   FPS   FT-LBS   PF   fpe 40   891   28.02   14.16   30.172 39   890   27.95   14.14    38   895   28.27   14.22    37   897   28.39   14.25    36   897   28.39   14.25    35   901   28.65   14.32    34   905   28.9           14.38    33   904   28.84   14.36    32   907   29.03   14.41    31   910   29.22   14.46    30   913   29.42   14.51    29   914   29.48   14.52    28   916   29.61   14.56    27   917   29.67   14.57    26   918   29.74   14.59    25   922   30         14.65    24   926   30.26   14.71    23   929   30.46   14.76    22   928   30.39   14.75    21   930   30.52   14.78    20   930   30.52   14.78    19   934   30.78   14.84    18   935   30.85   14.86    17   935   30.85   14.86    16   939   31.12   14.92    15   941   31.25   14.95    14   940   31.18   14.94    13   942   31.31   14.97    12   914   29.48   14.52    11   946   31.58   15.03    10   946   31.58   15.03    9   939   31.12   14.92    8   945   31.51   15.02    7   945   31.51   15.02    6   938   31.05   14.9    5   939   31.12   14.92    4   942   31.31   14.97    3   943   31.38   14.98    2   941   31.25   14.95    1   936   30.92   14.87    Avg   StdDev   Min   Max   Spread 924.5  17.5   890   946     56

So ladies and gentlemen what’s the verdict? Am I on the correct opening track, or have I lost the plot?

[mann]

The last string you have is the best one . You want the fps to peak in the middle of the shot string . So you would start out a little slower say like 920  peak in the middle at  like 940 and the shots would slow down to about 920 again for example hope that helps

[Ooops]

You want the fps to peak in the middle of the shot string . So you would start out a little slower say like 920  peak in the middle at  like 940 and the shots would slow down to about 920 again for example hope that helps

Yes it does, thanks.

I've found that opening shots have been slower when I've used higher fill pressures so I'll experiment between from 150/2200 & 170/2500

What are optimum figures for standard deviation and spread?

Thanks

[mann]

Standard deviation up to like 8 or 10 I suppose . And extreme spread of 30 fps  I like to stay as low as I can . I guess I just watch the extreme spread and I like to stay 20 to 25 or lower just because the accuracy seems to be better. That's just me I guess.  I would also stay around 850 to 900 fps  . That is what my marauder .25 and disco 22 seem to like . Condor  could be different I haven't got a chance to play with a af gun at all so I don't know for sure. Usually that is the speed jsb pellets work good at .

[mann]

I heard 50 fps all that up 100 fps for spread . The lower the better is what I've always thought . I will and have dropped my shot count down so it will stay around 15 ,20 or 25 fps to. I guess it's kind of a preference depending on what the rifle is used for

[mann]

The higher extreme spread the more you'll notice it's not as accurate . I guess I don't know at what point . I try to get it as low as possible like I said  good luck and practice will get you a good tune takes some trial a error also

[Ooops]

As a novice I found it surprisingly difficult to find clear and easily understood information on these areas so I've shared what I've learned so far in case any one else has / had the same questions. Please feel free to correct me if I've misunderstood, I'm here to learn.
The info is collated from numerous sources across the web and not my own work. And thank you mann for your contributions

“Caldwell Premium Chronograph ”displays a column of data "PF" What does PF  stand for?

Still working on it

At what point does spread have a negative impact?

spread or extreme spread is the difference between the fastest and the slowest shots divided by the average fps
a small spread represents small differences in velocity and shots taken will be consistent and accurate
a large spread indicates large differences in velocities and shots taken will be inconsistent and inaccurate, i.e. point of impact will vary

The further the distance you shoot over the more important it becomes.
50m & below 4% (+/- 2%) of the average is acceptable
100m+ 2% (+/- 1%) of average is acceptable

Is a spread of 100fps over 40 shots ok?

Its pants
Again the acceptable threshold varies with target distance
On 800 fps you would want in the region of:
3% to 4% / 24-32 spread if shooting 50yd
2% to 3% / 16-24 spread if shooting 75 yds
1% to 2% / 8-16 spread if shooting 100+ yard

What’s the significance of Standard Deviation?

SD is the avg predicted fps difference from shot to shot & predicts the likelihood of the next shot being within a specific range
an SD of 10fps means each shot is expected to be 10fps off the average velocity of that string

an absolute 10m laser may have  +/- 2 FPS in the 575 fps range = or 0.7% variation 
an accurate air rifle may have +/- 25 FPS in the 750 fps range = 7% variation.  
While 10x the % variation in velocities of a quality 10m air rifle, it is still very accurate

the less deviation from shot to shot, the more accurate the air rifle.  
again deviation is exaggerated by distance, an ok poi at 50m may be unacceptable at 100m

many variables cause SD e.g. temp, projectile, clean vs. dirty barrel, dieseling loose action screws, etc., etc.
SD only quantifies overall "system" accuracy, not the inherent accuracy of any one component

What is extreme deviation?

Its the same as Standard Deviation as described above

Testing of the guns' base line has stopped because the aftermarket hammer I installed came unglued. I stripped the gun and returned it to service with the original AF hammer and hammer weight and I'll retest when I can.

[dyotat100]

Try putting a 010 70d o ring under the tophat. Will allow for a higher fill. I did a 18" 25 and fill was 2700 down to 2200 at around 900 fps with jsb 34 gr.

[Ooops]

Try putting a 010 70d o ring under the tophat. Will allow for a higher fill. I did a 18" 25 and fill was 2700 down to 2200 at around 900 fps with jsb 34 gr.

Hi dyotat,

IIRC that's 1.8mm/.070” thick.

Are you saying to run the O ring at the same time as the washers that I'm using or instead of them?
So far I've used 1mm/.039", .75mm/.030", .5mm/.020", .25mm/.010"

[Ooops]

One thing that is puzzling me is random low power shots

I ran a string of 76 shots from 200/3000psi down to 120/1740psi and recorded the step changes in fps against pressure
I thought it would help me see what fps and duration I could expect from various fills

What surprised me was that approximately every tenth shot dropped way below the fps of the shot before and after.
specific examples are
#10 799    #19 860     #31 892     #42 910
#11 541    #20 743     #32 785     #43 853
#12 799    #21 842     #33 903     #44 939

Its happened on smaller strings as well. Am I cycling through the shots too quickly or is there some thing else that I should be looking for?

[dyotat100]

How are the shims working? O ring instead of shim.

A friend brought over .25 talon and we put a condor valve on it. It was shooting way to hot. So I desided to put a o ring instead of trying to find a shim size to use.

It seems to work real good. Shoots real consistent. I have alway used shims especially on the bigbores because they are hit so hard.

On my reg condors it shims also so it's the same everytime.
Don't know how long the o ring lasts or how temperature effects the fps when cold.

[Ooops]

How are the shims working? O ring instead of shim.

Good point, I'll give it a try on the next run through. Thanks

[Ooops]

Try putting a 010 70d o ring under the tophat.

Thank you it helped a lot, I was able to shoot a long string and establish a great base line to work from, however it was too thick and I couldn't get out of the high 700s.

Long story short I used a thinner one combined with a selection of shims and got the following strings. How do they look?

Set: 36   CSS22
JSB Exact Jumbo 15.89
1.0mm O ring with 0.6mm spacers, no insert, pw1/1
150bar down to 110bar - 2180/1600psi
11.1psi /shot

Average: 954.7FPS  SD: 16.3 FPS
Min: 891 FPS    Max: 977 FPS   Spread: 86 FPS

#      FPS           #      FPS           #      FPS           #      FPS      13    953        26    969       39    948      52    927    12    891       25    957       38    955      51    933 11    962         24    965       37    937      50    936  10    971         23    951       36    969      49    945  9    970         22    963       35    962      48    945  8    969         21    962       34    961      47    937  7    949         20    967        33    957        46    942  6    968        19    973       32    964      45    951  5    957        18    947       31    965       44    950   4    953         17    970       30    962       43    960  3    905         16    977       29    961      42    954  2    966       15    970       28    958       41    956  1    941      14    966        27    971       40    948

Set: 35  CSS22
JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy 18.13gr
1.0mm O ring with 0.6mm spacers, no insert, pw1/1
150bar down to 115bar - 2180/1660psi
13.9 psi / shot

Average: 928.1 FPS    SD: 10.4 FPS
Min: 909 FPS       Max: 948 FPS       Spread: 39 FPS

#      FPS   #      FPS   #      FPS 13    927          26    932       12    933          25    933           11    948          24    938          37    909        10    926          23    933          36    914          9    947          22    925          35    912          8    931          21    938          34    917        7    943          20    931         33    912        6    935          19    931          32    925        5    920          18    936          31    928          4    935          17    925          30    910        3    934          16    941         29    915          2    923          15    929          28    931    1    927        14    935         27    910

[mann]

Lower string looks good I would stop and refill after 32 shots on the bottom string then your spread would be better at 23 fps  just my opinion

[Ooops]

Lower string looks good I would stop and refill after 32 shots on the bottom string then your spread would be better at 23 fps  just my opinion

Thanks for the input. Absolutely but this was about establishing a base line i.e. fill pressures, washers etc so I wanted to be sure it was at the end.
I hope to tune it to 920fps

[mann]

Ok sorry missed that part in your post

[Ooops]

Ok sorry missed that part in your post

Not at all, I didn't make it clear enough

I'm setting the gun up for the first time and using the chrony for the first time so I'm very much on a learning curve and grateful for all input

[jus Tom]

Jethro, I commend you on your diligence doing the legwork with your SS. 

I've had my .22 SS for little over 7 months, kept it completely factory and experimented with various orings and shims. As your testing shows, the gun is very capable of long strings, shooting different weights of ammo accurately without 3000psi fills. 
I shoot mine with a sanded down .062" flat rubber washer behind the tophat achieving mid to upper 900fps consistent and accurate with 18 and 21gr ammo. With a pw setting of 5-2 I've found that all weights from 18-34gr will shoot to the same point of aim at 35yds.

[454 Big Block Chevy]

tweaking these rifles is a real blast, but can also put a hurting on pellets and air.  My personal rifle, is as follows....
Condor SS .22
18" barrel
TT top hat with larger restrictor
O ring underneath top hat
Talon Tunes extreme valve (was a project to make lots of power in .25, now its a .22 reaching for shot count)
Talon tunes tank adapter (drop down) with carbon fiber tank
Maddog Ultima stock
Main spring clipped one coil, bent and polished end
TT 95 gram heavy hammer with slap mod (also power builder)

put an o ring under the top hat, clip one coil off the spring, slightly bend and polish the end and face it towards the power wheel, and use the factory hammer.  put the "large" restrictor in the top hat, and set your PW at 0/0 i bet you'll be in the 600's velocity, slowly adjust your PW up to what your happy with, and using a fill of about 2200 or 2400, and you will dial it in.  My rifle puts 30 shots with about 6 fps spread, at 875 fps or so, with 18.13 grain JSB's.  30.xx foot lbs of energy.  I can stack pellets on top of more pellets.  Keep velocity under 900 fps for best accuracy and to reduce leading of the barrel.  the talon tunes top hat, with a restrictor and an O ring can be very very very consistant.

Goodl uck!

[Ooops]

Jethro, I commend you on your diligence doing the legwork with your SS. 

Thank you sir. Its both frustrating and enjoyable at the same time. Currently it seems that its the last string of each day that gets me that bit closer and makes me want to see what tomorrow has to offer.

I've had my .22 SS for little over 7 months, kept it completely factory and experimented with various orings and shims.

That's more or less where I am. I took the modded hammer out and put the original back in. The only non cosmetic change is the quick change top hat

Would you mind sharing what you worked out for shims? Also what results you got? Not the strings themselves but an idea of what SD and spread and at what general fps I should be looking for. At the moment I have my data but I don't have the base line of a well sorted .22 CSS to compare it to.

As your testing shows, the gun is very capable of long strings, shooting different weights of ammo accurately without 3000psi fills.

I've been amazed at how many shots a modest fill of 150bar / 2200 will produce, for example 150 shots in the 700s with an SD of 24. Of course not particularly useable and came with a huge spread but in terms of the number quite surprising.

I shoot mine with a sanded down .062" flat rubber washer behind the tophat achieving mid to upper 900fps consistent and accurate with 18 and 21gr ammo.

Thanks for specific reference, that sort of information is just what I'm after. Did you use shims with the o ring?
How did you manage to sand down a rubber o ring? I'm really struggling with nylon and fibre.
Are you using the factory top hat?

With a pw setting of 5-2 I've found that all weights from 18-34gr will shoot to the same point of aim at 35yds.

That's a terrific setup and its the same distance I'll be shooting the first groups over.
My power wheel has no effect until its cranked right up so initially I've left it at pw1/1. I'll revisit it once I've been through the various shim, and o ring combinations