The OTHER Marauder. Regulated .22 Initial Results

[triggertreat]

Looked pretty good with low ES and high power!  You will be able to stretch it out even more by lowering the velocity more.

[n2omike]

Installed the 28lb valve spring.  No other changes.  Pressure from 3100 psi - 1600 psi.
Looks like it's DONE!  FOUR solid mags, extremely consistent, and it looks like it's time to mount a scope and see how this thing is going to shoot!!!   

1.  880
2.  882
3.  886
4.  885
5.  885
6.  885
7.  887
8.  884
9.  885
10. 887

11. 888
12. 891
13. 890
14. 888
15. 887
16. 881
17. 885
18. 899
19. 883
20. 884

21. 885
22. 889
23. 900
24. 883
25. 883
26. 884
27. 883
28. 894
29. 889
30. 884

31. 891
32. 883
33. 887
34. 884
35. 884
36. 886
37. 886
38. 898
39. 888
40. 888

41. 877
42. 864
43. 865
44. 865

[ackuric]

First and foremost, did you check for any leakage / air loss around the TP? You can easily lose 50-100+ fps if that area isn't sealed well. Can't believe no one mentioned this simple possibility! (I sure hope its just this tbh)

Haha I love how the problem was the first thing I suggested....am I guru or a savant? LOL

I do know a thing or two....or three

I love being wrong because that is a chance to learn, but what I love more than that is being right on the money! WOOO. Glad its fixed my friend, ENJOY!

Oh and the extra shots you obtained from the stiffer valve spring? BINGO GJ. You actually answered a question I had lingering in the back of my mind...where I was certain a stiffer valve spring is ALWAYS beneficial, and the idea that tuning with light weight springs is best just blows my mind, even though I am currently running a 5lb spring 

40+ shots on the heavier valve spring vs 35 on the light weight valve spring. That is a HUGE gain! I believe this CONFIRMS how beneficial it is to NOT run a light weight valve spring in many valves, to boot it appears your SD and ES tightened way up on that stiffer valve spring as well

I actually have a custom 40-60 lb (need to test, have a scale coming) lb valve spring for my custom valve I plan on putting in, based on your gains in shot count, the 40-60 lb spring should CERTAINLY aid me!

[triggertreat]

You definitely got more shots with better efficiency on this one.  I don't believe you are done, but if so enjoy!

[n2omike]

Oh and the extra shots you obtained from the stiffer valve spring? BINGO GJ. You actually answered a question I had lingering in the back of my mind...where I was certain a stiffer valve spring is ALWAYS beneficial, and the idea that tuning with light weight springs is best just blows my mind, even though I am currently running a 5lb spring 

40+ shots on the heavier valve spring vs 35 on the light weight valve spring. That is a HUGE gain! I believe this CONFIRMS how beneficial it is to NOT run a light weight valve spring in many valves, to boot it appears your SD and ES tightened way up on that stiffer valve spring as well

It's actually 31 full power shots on the 6lb valve spring, vs. 40 with the 28lb unit.

I actually have a custom 40-60 lb (need to test, have a scale coming) lb valve spring for my custom valve I plan on putting in, based on your gains in shot count, the 40-60 lb spring should CERTAINLY aid me!

The 28lb spring from Hill is actually a LIGHTER spring than stock.  I have a stock spring that is quite a bit stiffer than that one.  It might be 40-60lb.  The wire is definitely a lot thicker.  I'll see about taking a picture of both (or all 3) later. 

[ackuric]

Oh and the extra shots you obtained from the stiffer valve spring? BINGO GJ. You actually answered a question I had lingering in the back of my mind...where I was certain a stiffer valve spring is ALWAYS beneficial, and the idea that tuning with light weight springs is best just blows my mind, even though I am currently running a 5lb spring 

40+ shots on the heavier valve spring vs 35 on the light weight valve spring. That is a HUGE gain! I believe this CONFIRMS how beneficial it is to NOT run a light weight valve spring in many valves, to boot it appears your SD and ES tightened way up on that stiffer valve spring as well

It's actually 31 full power shots on the 6lb valve spring, vs. 40 with the 28lb unit.

I actually have a custom 40-60 lb (need to test, have a scale coming) lb valve spring for my custom valve I plan on putting in, based on your gains in shot count, the 40-60 lb spring should CERTAINLY aid me!

The 28lb spring from Hill is actually a LIGHTER spring than stock.  I have a stock spring that is quite a bit stiffer than that one.  It might be 40-60lb.  The wire is definitely a lot thicker.  I'll see about taking a picture of both (or all 3) later.

You're reiterating what I already stated, yet in context that seems argumentative, maybe you misread what I said but I am stating " 35 shots on the LIGHT 6 lb spring and 40+ on the HEAVY 28 lb spring = proves my theory that STIFFER valve springs are BENEFICIAL. "

I would say 35 shots on the light weight spring looked okay, and 41 on the stiffer. JMO though as I am being more forgiving on the LW spring

Nonetheless I don't believe we disagree

Stock gen ll marauder valve spring is around 30-32 lbs, tested with a spring rate calculator.

[n2omike]

You definitely got more shots with better efficiency on this one.  I don't believe you are done, but if so enjoy!

NOT done?!?!  What else would YOU do???  LOL!   

The shot string was very, very consistent....   except for two fliers that zoomed up close to 900 fps for some reason.  Hard to say what caused that...  but I'm happy with FOUR solid mags.  If it's accurate, I'll call it DONE.  If it's not what I want, I might try turning it down a little bit. 

At this point, I'm tired of working on it!  I need to paint my house!  lol 

I may do another shot string to back up the last one, and see if it still has those random fliers.  If it wasn't for those, this thing is GOOD! 

Final Combination:

.22 Synrod
Marmot Militia Hammer Forged Barrel
Lane Regulator set at 130 Barr (1885 psi)
Hill Valve
Hill 0.187" poly TP
Barrel NOT drilled out.  These come around 0.160", I believe.
WAR TSS with stock outer and long inner spring
Rocker1 39.5 gram MDS Hammer
3100 psi fill pressure
40 shots at around 885 fps w/18.1 grain JSBs

[ackuric]

Personally I would go to Acehardware and get a nylon spacer 1" long @ .250 OD with .14" ID...they also come with .171" ID so you don't have to drill that part out. If you went with .171" ID I would get the .5" inch spacer and shave it down to .465-.47" in length and toss that in. Ideally you'd want a T-port of around .165" IMO which SHOULD aid you even slightly more with efficiency, although not a TON. I slide the nylon spacer over a drill bit to help keep it very flat, and from there I try to keep the bit straight as I slide it across sand paper to reduce its OAL...I then wrap 1 layer of masking tape sized to the tp around it to thicken it so it sits a little better during install and centers it over your port, as that hole is .265" in the stock gun.

You want to closely match your ports with your tp and go slightly bigger so there are no ledges in that passage, at least IMO. So its better to have the side of the TP on the valve exit port a little bigger than the valves exit port, and the barrel side slightly smaller. What I did was just port my barrel much larger than my tp/valve exit port so I didn't have to taper my TP. A ledge in the TP (which the current tp you're using shouldn't have being so oversized) would create turbulence and hurt air flow.

From there I would suggest lightening the hammer more but that will require a bit more spring to get back to the power you want, but I think a .22 cal regulated marauder should be running a 22-32 gr hammer at most, but that is just my opinion.

Currently, if your numbers are all right, you're only hovering around 1 FPE/CI? It's not terrible considering the power you're at but certainly seems it can be approved upon slightly, I could see 10-20% higher shot count, likely another whole clip if you really dialed it all in. Your MINIMUM expected shot count (imo) is around 35, and MAX shot count (again imo) is around 88 (at this power level) with the stock barrel. Since you're not stock and I know the MM barrel is a bit tighter and reduces fps which hurts the FPE/CI number, I would expect a slight reduction in efficiency. I prefer my tunes to be either half of the max or better..ie: 44 shots at minimum in that psi range (3100-1600) GL

[n2omike]

You're reiterating what I already stated, yet in context that seems argumentative, maybe you misread what I said but I am stating " 35 shots on the LIGHT 6 lb spring and 40+ on the HEAVY 28 lb spring = proves my theory that STIFFER valve springs are BENEFICIAL. "

I would say 35 shots on the light weight spring looked okay, and 41 on the stiffer. JMO though as I am being more forgiving on the LW spring

Nonetheless I don't believe we disagree

Stock gen ll marauder valve spring is around 30-32 lbs, tested with a spring rate calculator.

Not arguing.  I was looking when it first started to fall off, and we're both seeing the same basic thing.  31 vs 40 shots is a huge difference.  The 6lb spring is too light.  The 28 might be just right.

As for available valve springs...  I BELIEVE the Marauders came with two different valve springs.  One, a really stiff one, and the 'not so stiff' one you measured.  These are the three I have.  The 6lb on the left, then the 28lb, and whatever that one on the right is. 

Hill sells valve springs.  He sells the 'lightest' which is the 6lb, the 'lighter' which is the 28lb, and the 'higher' one that might be 59lb if I'm reading it right.  They are about $7 each at hillairgun dot com. 

Here is a picture of the three springs side by side.

Good Luck!

[shorty]

N20Mike,
Awesome job and great work. Check out some 21.14 barracudas. They shoot great and get the FPS to FPE level in line.

Check out this post from 2016 when I did my 22synrod. This is everything I have done to my 22synrod and it's still the same as when I did it.

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=103892.0

[ackuric]

The one on the right *looks* like the one I measured using an online spring rate calculator and the springs specs. It came out to around 32 lbs. Although mine is a bronze color which is a different grade of material at least I assumed so maybe yours is stiffer! I believe mine (gen ll) is made of Phos-brnz Grade A material. Its the same color as the valve.

I didn't know hill had the 3 and you were referring to those when you said stiffer! So my apology as I thought you just meant the stock stiffer spring which a close match to the 28 lb hill one

If my spring is underwhelming on the rating factor then I will definitely get one from hill. Thanks !

[triggertreat]

You definitely got more shots with better efficiency on this one.  I don't believe you are done, but if so enjoy!

NOT done?!?!  What else would YOU do???  LOL!   

The shot string was very, very consistent....   except for two fliers that zoomed up close to 900 fps for some reason.  Hard to say what caused that...  but I'm happy with FOUR solid mags.  If it's accurate, I'll call it DONE.  If it's not what I want, I might try turning it down a little bit. 

At this point, I'm tired of working on it!  I need to paint my house!  lol 

I may do another shot string to back up the last one, and see if it still has those random fliers.  If it wasn't for those, this thing is GOOD! 

Final Combination:

.22 Synrod
Marmot Militia Hammer Forged Barrel
Lane Regulator set at 130 Barr (1885 psi)
Hill Valve
Hill 0.187" poly TP
Barrel NOT drilled out.  These come around 0.160", I believe.
WAR TSS with stock outer and long inner spring
Rocker1 39.5 gram MDS Hammer
3100 psi fill pressure
40 shots at around 885 fps w/18.1 grain JSBs

No, if you are happy I'm happy for you.  Nothing like just going and enjoying it for a while to see how she does in reality after all the work you have put into it.  If your reg is set to 130 bar (1885psi), that means you came off the reg around shot 35-36 and still got a few decent shots after that which means you have a good balance set up between the hammer and ports.  If anything, If were mine, I would drop on down to 860 to 870 for even more shots.  I find with my own Synrod that 30 FPE is good enough for most any .22 cal work even out to 50 yards and beyond on small game.  You will find that when you have pin-point accuracy the gun is even more capable than you think.  You have the .25 for bigger game and longer ranges.  I messed up on the ES, you really got a 2.22% ES for 40 shots which is awesome for long range shooting.


I wouldn't worry too much about the valve springs used.  It's all a balance between the fill/operating pressure, ports and the hammer energy applied to them.  You are really working with the set point pressure, but do want to stay focused also when off reg too for the highest usable shot count possible.  Looks like you are good there.


The higher peaks may have come from a longer delay between shots that allowed the pressure in the reg to stabilize more or could be a dirty hammer or hammer spring issue or dirty barrel issue.  It's hard for me to say.  I would stick with the JSB and AA pellets and not use any others except for maybe the predators.  Those AA 16gr are really accurate in my HF barrel and I don't retune for them when shooting from my 18gr tune either.  Also keep that barrel clean and pellets lubed and you will have a real shooter that will be hard to compete against.

[n2omike]

Messed with it a little more.  It's easy to swap springs around, so I installed the short inner spring, and had more variation than I wanted.  I then installed the longer inner spring again with more main spring gap to turn it down a bit, hit the hammer tube and springs with a little dry moly graphite, and tried that.  Shot count increased DRAMATICALLY.  Velocities are very consistent, except for random LOW values, where speeds drop by 20-30 fps.  But, here is the shot string.  Over six mags.

What can be causing those random drops in velocities? 

3100 psi - 1600 psi

1.  855
2.  877
3.  883
4.  880
5.  849
6.  878
7.  875
8.  859
9.  880
10. 872

11. 876
12. 862
13. 856
14. 852
15. 881
16. 883
17. 886
18. 880
19. 844
20. 880

21. 881
22. 877
23. 880
24. 884
25. 878
26. 884
27. 877
28. 870
29. 882
30. 883

31. 868
32. 880
33. 866
34. 889
35. 868
36. 879
37. 880
38. 884
39. 881
40. 862

41. 884
42. 884
43. 891
44. 878
45. 891
46. 854
47. 884
48. 884
49. 874
50. 867

51. 875
52. 865
53. 878
54. 872
55. 878
56. 862
57. 883
58. 859
59. 863
60. 847

61. 858
62. 867
63. 873
64. 869
65. 861
66. 833

[triggertreat]

My guess is you are shooting out in the heat which expands the air for added shots and causing inconsistency too.  But I'm also guessing more so that your hammer strike is inconsistent as well.  Another guess is you don't have a gap on the two springs and the light inner is changing forces maybe even with temps.  I like using a stronger inner spring which holds its tension better for consistency.


P.S. Pellet variations will play a roll too.


Also, check your springs for one hanging up on the other or on the end cap adjustments.  You can bend the inner spring ends inwards for a smoother slide within the primary spring.  I like using a stronger 14.8lb spring for the inner.  This allows me to create a gap on both springs much easier.  I cut the inner spring a 1/4" shorter or so than the primary spring and then I have more control and can ease it inward to adjust the velocity.  I don't use much of the inner spring so cocking isn't an issue.  I also have cut a coil off the primary if I need more gap or to make the adjuster flush on the end cap.  I don't like it to be protruding out.


Make sure the MDS lug is not overtightened.  I have experienced both of mine getting distorted when doing so and the brass insert will change too with temp changes causing some drag on the inner walls.  Just snug on the lug fixed mine.

[pcp_Dave]

 Man, that looks really good. Are you making a really quick followup shot once in a while and the regulator is catching up?

[n2omike]

My guess is you are shooting out in the heat which expands the air for added shots and causing inconsistency too.  But I'm also guessing more so that your hammer strike is inconsistent as well.  Another guess is you don't have a gap on the two springs and the light inner is changing forces maybe even with temps.  I like using a stronger inner spring which holds its tension better for consistency. 

No, shooting inside in the air conditioning.  I have the chrono in front of a big metal pellet trap...  sitting on the dining room table...  on top of a table cloth, so nothing gets scratched up.   

Also, check your springs for one hanging up on the other or on the end cap adjustments.  You can bend the inner spring ends inwards for a smoother slide within the primary spring.  I like using a stronger 14.8lb spring for the inner.  This allows me to create a gap on both springs much easier.  I cut the inner spring a 1/4" shorter or so than the primary spring and then I have more control and can ease it inward to adjust the velocity.  I don't use much of the inner spring so cocking isn't an issue.  I also have cut a coil off the primary if I need more gap or to make the adjuster flush on the end cap.  I don't like it to be protruding out.

That would be something to look into.  Could see if the springs are hanging up.

Make sure the MDS lug is not overtightened.  I have experienced both of mine getting distorted when doing so and the brass insert will change too with temp changes causing some drag on the inner walls.  Just snug on the lug fixed mine.

That could definitely be something to look into, as I just ran it in pretty tight, and check it out all that closely.  I'll look and see if any of the threads from the Allen screw are hanging down.  But, the MDS hammer slides back and forth very easily.

Was also wondering if I could have a sporadic air leak...

Man, that looks really good. Are you making a really quick followup shot once in a while and the regulator is catching up?

As for giving the regulator time to charge...  I make a shot, write down the velocity, and make the next shot.  Maybe 5-10 seconds.

Gun seems like it wants to shoot in the high 870's to low-mid 880's...  unless that bug bites, and it shoots 850's to low 860's!  It's annoying!!! 

[oldpro]

Messed with it a little more.  It's easy to swap springs around, so I installed the short inner spring, and had more variation than I wanted.  I then installed the longer inner spring again with more main spring gap to turn it down a bit, hit the hammer tube and springs with a little dry moly graphite, and tried that.  Shot count increased DRAMATICALLY.  Velocities are very consistent, except for random LOW values, where speeds drop by 20-30 fps.  But, here is the shot string.  Over six mags.

What can be causing those random drops in velocities? 

3100 psi - 1600 psi

1.  855
2.  877
3.  883
4.  880
5.  849
6.  878
7.  875
8.  859
9.  880
10. 872

11. 876
12. 862
13. 856
14. 852
15. 881
16. 883
17. 886
18. 880
19. 844
20. 880

21. 881
22. 877
23. 880
24. 884
25. 878
26. 884
27. 877
28. 870
29. 882
30. 883

31. 868
32. 880
33. 866
34. 889
35. 868
36. 879
37. 880
38. 884
39. 881
40. 862

41. 884
42. 884
43. 891
44. 878
45. 891
46. 854
47. 884
48. 884
49. 874
50. 867

51. 875
52. 865
53. 878
54. 872
55. 878
56. 862
57. 883
58. 859
59. 863
60. 847

61. 858
62. 867
63. 873
64. 869
65. 861
66. 833

You might be getting the pressure tube too cooland causing the MDS hammer to stick. I would go back into gun and clean and ball hone pressure tube again and run NO lube at all. Also On war valves if you run to much graphite powder it will get pushed between valve stem and seat and cause sticking.

[Deckard1973]

Hey n2oMike, triggertreat, ackuric, et all, thanks for this thread! 
Giving me ideas, mods to try.
Thanks again!

[ackuric]

Great improvement so far Mike! That is a HUGE jump. As I said don't give up till you're around 50-60 shots at 29-31 fpe IMO. Looks like you listened and knew you could squeeze more out of it, and you did!

The other comments on hammer strike effecting your current ES seems very plausible and I would heed everyone's advice on that.

[n2omike]

Just did another string with no changes...  Had 2-3 dip below 870, 859 being the worst, but most were in the low-mid 880's.  Shot 70 was still 864!  LOL  Can't believe this thing has such a long shot string!  I'm going to run a bore snake through the barrel a couple times, then post one more shot string.  Hopefully, it's working those fliers out of its system. 

3100 to 1500 psi for 70 shots, with an average of around 880 fps using JSB 18.1 grain pellets. 
Cannot believe it will stretch SEVEN usable mags out of a single fill!

Hammer seems to fit plenty loose, so I don't 'think' it's getting stuck in there.

Definitely no hammer bounce going on!