Darkside decision?

[Hoosier Daddy]

I have been in the mind set I was not going to get into the PCP rabbit hole.....Nope not me.
 I have been thinking about a QB79 or an AR2079 as a next gun.
Son in Law #3 worked at a local Paintball Complex for a few years in his younger days and says while they are capable of bulk filling CO2 bottles, he has been recommending I go HPA.  So I started looking around and the QB79 with a Ninja bottle seems nice. What I don't like is the idea of having to drive somewhere to get a tank filled. So that brings me to a hand pump as a solution.
  You can fill a ninja bottle with a Hand pump... right?
But now the recent release of the Beeman Chief has me thinking.
 The built quality of the 3 should all be similar. And if I am going with a hand pump either way I am thinking price wise it may be a wash.
I know the Chief has just hit the market and there is not much hard data on it yet, but is there any benefit to holding onto my mindset of converting a AR2079 to HPA instead of buying a 2K PCP gun built that way from the start?

[Ken0]

My personal opinion would be to go with the QB Chief. I myself just think its a cool gun, and you can't go wrong when its manufactured from the ground up to be PCP hpa rifle. Converting a c02 to HPA is obviously easily doable, but I say why not give the Chief a shot also considering its less than $200, i think like $170 exactly or something. Remarkably low price

[Ribbonstone]

Quick talk about pump effort/PCP's.

Considering how HPA bottles are connected to QB79's, taking the bottle off to get it filled isn't an option (you'd need to partially dissassemble the rifle every time).  Wandering into a paintball shop with a rifle (they know paintball guns...QB looks like a rifle-rifle) with the bottle attached won't win a lot of firends either.

1. The more volume to fill, the more effort to fill.
2. The higher the pressure, the more effort.
3. To keep you pump happy and healthy, pump in sets of 50-60 strokes, then bleed the pump hose, disconnect, and give it a little cool down wait.  Bleeding it every 50-60 pumps tends to blow out collected moisture and the cool down wait tends to kee the pump o-rings long lived.

(You can ignore rule #3 and just learn to rebuild your pump much more often than the guy who observes rule #3).


 Pressure:

Whatever tiny volume of air the pump puts out per stroke, the rifle will accept only the amount over the pressure still in the rifle.  So if you start refilling when the rifle drops down to 900PSI, then most of each pump  goes into the rifle.  As the rifle's pressure rises, less and less of each pump stroke goes into the rifle.  So even if the two tubes had the same air volume, will take more effort to fill from 1900-3000psi than it will the fill the same air volume from 900-2000psi.

Volume vs pressure range:
Am a confirmend pump filler, but I don't look forward to filling 13ci bottles.   Thats about 215cc's of voule, which isn't bad, but often need to fill them from 900 to 3000PSI, which is 2100psi of air... a whole lot of air.

That 215cc's is about the same as on an M-Rod...but those usually only need refilling once the pressure drops to about 1900-2000psi. Filling 1100psi worth of air into 215cc's is easier than filling 2100psi of air into a 215cc HPA tank.

I tend to think in "total air".
Air is not a "perfect" gas, so it's not always as proportional as I'd like, but 150cc's of 3K air is 1/3 more air than 150cc's of 2K air.

Now to shoot a PCP at some "normal" speed, can release a little "blip" of 3K air to get to that speed, or release a long "blap" of lower pressure air.  Either way, can get to a desired speed/energy.

But, becasue that little "blip" of 3K air used less of the total air volume than the longer "blap" of 2K air, would expect more shots (likely 1/3 more shots as there is 1/3 more air) before having to refill the rifle once again.

SO...yeah...are likely to EITHER get more shots OR higher power shots from 150cc's of 3K air than 150cc's of 2K air, but 150cc's of 2K air is easier to pump-fill.

Typical compromise (with a rule #3 twist).

Lets say I have a small volume PCP (130-150cc) that fills to 2K (like a Disco/Maxi/Chief).  Will likely need to refill it by the time it drops to 900psi.  Depending on how fast/powerul it's set to shoot, am filling every 20-40 shots (OK...with a  5-6 foot pound "match speed" rifle, that might be 90 shots).
LEts just call it every 25 shots for you guys who want more than springer power.

Can fill that rifle that 1100PSI (900-2000psi) with about 43-50 pump strokes(depending on the pump).

That is under Rule #3's 50-60 pump stroke per set limit...so no wait time.  It's pump one set, shoot 25 shots, pump one set, shoot 25 shots, pump one set, shoot 25 shots, etc..

Lets say I have a 3K fill rifle with a modest 180-200cc volume. Likely would need to refill back to 3000psiat something like 1800-1900psi.  That will take more than one set of pumps (rule #3).  Might get 35-45 shots (again, depending on the energy level/air use per shot).

So that drill would be pump---bleed pump/cool down wait...pump...shoot 35 shots...pump---bleed pump/cool down wait...pump...25 shots, etc.

Or you might want a mega-powered 3K PCP moster.  Lets say 200cc's, 3K fill limit, and you get 12-15 good shots at really high power before having to refill at 1800psi.  So that would be pump fill..bleed pump/cool down wait...pump fill...bleed pump/cool down wait...pump fill...shoot 15 shots.....repeat.



One advanatage of a regulated HPA bottle QB 79: you don't have to fill to 3000psi.

So long as the bottle is filled OVER whatever the regulator is set for (lets say 1000psi), the rifle will shoot just as fast as it would if filled to 3K.  Just won't shoot as long a string.

Thats pretty much proportional.  If you can get 100 shots filled to 3K and shot down to 1000psi, would likely get 50 shots if you only filled it to  2000psi (haslf way between 1000 and 3000psi)....or 25 shots if filledf to 1500psi..etc.


I do keep a QB79 HPA conversion...running at 900psi. I've been using it as a "back door" gun (and ratter), so it stays propped abainst the bac door and might get a few shots per week.

 Unlike a lot of folks, went with adjusting things for shot count over raw power.  So somthing close to 13 foot pounds for + 200 shots per fill.

That's 200 shots for 215cc's over 2100psi...still a PIA to pump back up to 3K, but considering the number of shots, I'm not likely to refill  this one (excluding 0-ring failure/leaks) more than 4 times a year.


BOTTOM LINE:  Two choices for a pump filler.

Would you rather pump your butt off (with lots of bleed pump/cool down waiting) and shoot a carp-load at one stitting....or pump a little  bit (less than one set), shoot, pump, shoot, etc.?


I can see #1....esp. if you pump fill it the first time the night before (gotta do something when TV not worthy or during commericals).

Can also see #2, which really is my pference for various reasons...small volume/shorter shot count works for me with hunting rifles.  Not so thrilled with the idea for bench rest use.

[Hoosier Daddy]

That puts a lot of thought into it... Thanks!

[39M]

Just say NO!

[Ribbonstone]

If you have the $$$...go with a compressor and a storage tank (lets just say 4-8X as much as a started PCP rifle).

Other than that, having a tank refilled by a 3ty is like hiring a  cook to cook your meals, a lawn service to cut your grass, or a gigolo to "service" your girl friend/wife (or both).   Basically this: if you can't do it, someone else can.

[Lmgunner13]

I have a pump and a couple of tanks. One is a 3000psi scuba tank and the other is a 4500 psi scba tank. Both get filled for free at my local fire station. Well not entirely free, I send over a few pizzas now and then. Point is if you use a DIN300 valve on your tanks fire department can fill them in minutes.

[Pappy]

Get into PCP and get it over with ...... go with FX, Daystate, RAW, and if you like to tinker get a BSA ..... then get a Great White tank from Joe and be done with it!  There is no saving money in PCP, you get what you pay for.
My $.02

Pappy

[Hoosier Daddy]

There is no saving money in PCP, you get what you pay for.

  Pappy, that is exactly what has kept me away from them.

[Wayne52]

Scott when I was out in the woods today I was shooting at some marks on old dead logs just to see how close I was, I used up all the good air so I had to refill, I carry a pump behind my seat just for this purpose rather than drag a big scba along with me, well it really worked out good.  The pump that I've been using for probably a year now is one of the clones of the G6 Air Venturi I pumped up to the end of the green which according to Mroair is 3300psi.  They're like they're made to be put behind the seat of a standard truck cab.

[cobalt327]

With all the hoopla, I was also drawn to HPA. The idea of a high shot count from an airgun before needing to recharge it definitely has its appeal. BUT when I was honest w/myself I came to realize there wasn't an actual need for me to use HPA for the type of shooting I like to do- the bulk of my shooting is casual target/plinking out to about 30 yards or so, which I enjoy enormously. No hunting, no long distance target shooting. So while a high shot count is nice, the tariff for that is just too high for me. But I'm glad it exists as an option.

[Atomic Powered Gruds]

Nice to see you broadening your horizons Scott, its been a blast for me working on mine. Speaking of I have ordered a few parts for it that should have it better then new. Will update the respected topic on that instead of hijacking this any further, this is about you and tapping into as well as furthering your deep dark addiction well seeking counseling with others of your kind. lol

The ninja tank can be filled well attached to the rifle with a pump or what not without having to take anything apart. I personally like the higher shot count/consistancy of the QB79 with ninja though out of the box the QBC would likely be a lot less work unless are happy with the power of the stock QB79 W/ ninja(<11-12FPE?). I really like them both though. Depends what you would be happy with and if you would like to put extra effort into it to get more out of it.

[Ol'DeadEye]

I'm of the opposite opinion of most of you guys with your pressure-volume-efficient formulas and stuff.
It's the K.I.S.S. method for me, Keep It Simple Sonny.
I'd go with a Disco and pump, remove the rear sight and install a Williams peep sight FP-AG-TK.
TKO if you really need it to pacify your neighbors, but it turns a nice carbine type rifle into a spear.

I've never bled my pump down between pump strokes and have never felt any warmth in the pump body.
I need to cool myself down after about 40 strokes (old age).
I just walk away for a few minutes and then come back and continue when I'm ready.
Slow strokes with a pause at the top and bottom of the stroke.
Disco is easy to fill to 2k...

If I can't pump for some reason I can switch over to co2 without fiddling with anything - just bleed off the remaining air.
Fill adapter isn't too costly.

Have fun...

[Privateer]

Scott,
I have my eye on that Beeman Chief myself.
Looks like a great starter PCP and cheaper then the Maximus.
Hand pumping to 2000 PSI is easy! the AT44's go to 3000 and that pushed me into a $1300 compressor.
Just remember this. THERE ARE NO DANGED COOKIES!!!
 

[Agate47]

Scott,
 
I wondered about The Dark Side for a long time, too. Last summer I entered the Aug/Sept GTA raffle cause it offered a tuning of a Gen II Mrod and a tactical stock. Much to my surprise, i won the raffle. I quickly ordered a refurbished Mrod in .177 and had it shipped to Travis at WAR. He installed a regulator, his SSG, and some of his pixey dust and shipped to me. I then got a scope and a G-6' pump to complete my set-up.

I shoot mostly in my 10 meter garage at about 12 ft lbs. for about 120 shots on a 3000 psi fill. I am only a 150 lbs of rippling 68 year old retiree. However, I can easily manage the patient pumping. OK, so I walk and exercise most days to maintain a healthy lifestyle, but it is not a strain to pump after a shooting session.

I also have other airguns to add variety. So my bottom line is that as stated above, pumping is not hideous unless you like to shoot high power and lots of that. The accuracy of my Mrod is very interesting, and I hope to get outside more this year after attending the GTA Fun shoot in May.

[Hoosier Daddy]

All of the responses are fantastic. I thought a Nija bottled QB79 / 2079. would be 2000 and so is the Chief.
 I was under the impression the volume would be the variable. So the Ninja bottle was a larger volume and require more pumping... But would also have a larger shot count between topping off was required.
  Can not afford a compressor or a SCUBA / SCBA tank.
What's a "guppy" tank?

[39M]

A guppy tank is 90ci....I think.

[Mole2017]

I just got done posting my first experience working with a hand pump: http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=127469.msg1249694#msg1249694

There are two charts there and comments on the effort, but like the others are saying, 2000 PSI is very reasonable. I'm a pretty light person, but by 2000 PSI  I was only having to lean on the pump some (at 3000 it was more like throw my weight on top of the pump...). I was surprised at how linear it was--nearly 225 PSI "added" for every 20 strokes at low or high pressures on a 200 CC rifle .

[nervoustrigger]

Scott, I think Robert did a thorough job of explaining the pros and cons.  Just a few comments based on the way I see the scales tipping one way or the other.

To my way of thinking, choosing between a bottled conversion and a PCP comes down to two things:

• how much (and what type of) tinkering you want to do, and
• how much energy you want for your purposes

Both are going to require some tinkering if you want to wring out their potential.  With the Chief, like any conventional (unregulated) PCP, it's going to need to be adjusted to give a useful bell curve.  Sometimes it's easy, sometimes it takes hours and hours of time running strings over the chronograph.  With a QB HPA conversion, the only tinkering you would need to do is back off the hammer spring to get good efficiency.  The joys of having a regulator.

Which brings us to energy.  Looks like the Chief will deliver around 20fpe out of the box.  Not a lot of shots per fill, given the smallish reservoir and 2000psi max fill, but plenty of energy for medium game and/or shooting with pretty flat trajectory out beyond 50 yards.  Not much need to beef it up unless you just get the urge.  An otherwise unmodified QB HPA conversion will be around 10-12fpe with a Ninja SHP bottle.  Lots of very consistent shots, owing to larger volume and higher fill pressure and of course the lower energy level.  Can get it up to the same energy levels as the Chief or higher by opening up the flow with guides like Bob's or mine.  You can get it done with pretty basic tools and skills, and while  I realize it's not for everyone, it's possible to achieve some phenomenal results that way.

[Hoosier Daddy]

Getting close to midnight... But I found this and want to remember.
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=90578.0