NOE .25 cal Pellet Moulds

[Nomadic Pirate]

Or if anybody else would like to send me a sample pack ? ....just let me know how much.

thanks

[K.O.]

How hot are you running your pot that looks like heavy frosting... a light frosting is what I have been told is best also I see a lot of wrinkling did you clean your mold before casting..?

I also see some finning at the pellets base that indicates a sharp edged leade... but at short range not as big a prob...

head size looks about perfect could be a touch smaller I bet... so running a bit cooler should not be a prob there...

[K.O.]

 Bob My Buc loves the .177 sniper mag cylindricals wish I knew how fast it is pushing them at...

[K.O.]

Bob I go by my gut and it is easy to be wrong...  I feel with the 65% meplat( semi wad territory) and longer nose the more bullet like the better..

my gut likes the .210 best... sort of like a Bator/Sniper Mag hybrid.. would love  to see a 45g-50g .25 bator with short rebated boattail..? a Bobs Bator BT or BBBT .25.

The old .22 Benji High Comp semi wad dome also had a wider than normal waist... they did well to about 40 yards(peeps) at ~800 fps...

would it be possible with a tapered bit to mod it to a 79%(.200) waist like pic below... Might be an option..?

[Wayne52]

Manny I can send you some but I need to get rid of the lead in my pot first, then I'll use some known really soft lead because I think the last hunk that I put in the pot had some tin in the mix.  I need to get back to a woods where I stashed a bunch of old sewer pipe for future pickup, there's still quite a bit out there including the stuff still in the ground that I didn't dig up.  Yes I can send you a hundred for testing when I get them molded for sure, I'll get in contact with you when I get them done.

[Wayne52]

How hot are you running your pot that looks like heavy frosting... a light frosting is what I have been told is best also I see a lot of wrinkling did you clean your mold before casting..?

I also see some finning at the pellets base that indicates a sharp edged leade... but at short range not as big a prob...

head size looks about perfect could be a touch smaller I bet... so running a bit cooler should not be a prob there...

Kirby I bought that Lee single temp (275 watt) in probably 1975 for molding bullets for my muzzle loaders, it really seems to do a great job on them but that's a whole different story from these little pellets.  I might look into buying a better one with an adjustable temp.  I do prefer using a ladle for pouring though rather than the bottom feed, I might check more into buying a new pot too because they're not super expensive and if I can get these pellets to work really good it would probably be worth it. 

[n2omike]

I do prefer using a ladle for pouring though rather than the bottom feed, I might check more into buying a new pot too because they're not super expensive and if I can get these pellets to work really good it would probably be worth it.

The advantage of 'bottom pour' is not really of convenience, but quality.  The main thing, is that the slag floats to the top...  so if you're using a ladle, you're constantly trying to scoot the thin layer of impurities out of the way to get good metal. 

I use to cast balls for muzzle loaders, and used an open pot on a cheap hot plate.  This worked fine for musket balls, but I can see precision pellet casting being an completely different, more complicated and tedious animal. 

Good Luck!

[nielsenammo]

I do prefer using a ladle for pouring though rather than the bottom feed, I might check more into buying a new pot too because they're not super expensive and if I can get these pellets to work really good it would probably be worth it.

The advantage of 'bottom pour' is not really of convenience, but quality.  The main thing, is that the slag floats to the top...  so if you're using a ladle, you're constantly trying to scoot the thin layer of impurities out of the way to get good metal. 

I use to cast balls for muzzle loaders, and used an open pot on a cheap hot plate.  This worked fine for musket balls, but I can see precision pellet casting being an completely different, more complicated and tedious animal. 

Good Luck!

I use a ladle that pours from the bottom of the ladle to avoid that problem.

Here is an example of one:
https://www.rotometals.com/casting-ladle-bottom-pour-rowell-1-2-1-4-bowl-diameter-9-handle-length/

[K.O.]

How hot are you running your pot that looks like heavy frosting... a light frosting is what I have been told is best also I see a lot of wrinkling did you clean your mold before casting..?

I also see some finning at the pellets base that indicates a sharp edged leade... but at short range not as big a prob...

head size looks about perfect could be a touch smaller I bet... so running a bit cooler should not be a prob there...

Kirby I bought that Lee single temp (275 watt) in probably 1975 for molding bullets for my muzzle loaders, it really seems to do a great job on them but that's a whole different story from these little pellets.  I might look into buying a better one with an adjustable temp.  I do prefer using a ladle for pouring though rather than the bottom feed, I might check more into buying a new pot too because they're not super expensive and if I can get these pellets to work really good it would probably be worth it.

I got the little Lee as a present and figured try it before getting a bigger pot... it, a bottom pour ladle and a thermometer work great pouring these smaller .22 and .25 rounds for me... also if you go to a new pot you can use the  old pot to rough smelt your found lead... I have only found wheel weight and a pipe sealing ring(in the neighbors back yard   )... still have not used the wheel weights just my recovered pellets and the ring...   

The reason I brought up the fins on the skirt is one of my two .25 Mrods absolutely hated the Benji domes 1.5" at 30 yards and the other tolerated them... It also was more difficult to load the BBT 40g.. in that same rifle... took the leade down most of the way... not quite enough for the BBT(but a big improvement)... But now it likes the Benji domes almost as much as the JSB Kings... so maybe the skirts on these like the Benji domes do not like a sharp edged leade... Before pic of that barrels leade, reply 15 in below link...

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=121437.msg1184497#msg1184497     

I dreamed of an air rifle with 50+ fpe back in the 80s... Knew it and more was possible... and years later its here...

Now we get to work on figuring out the finer points  of running cast (low and high fpe) and just what is possible... while enjoying the independence of it...

It is a bit like we are the Pneu Wildcatters  

It would be cool if Al could mod the molds and be able to produce some skirt/body variations off of one cherry... I guess could ask Eric at Hollowpoint Services also... 

I know that they bore out gas checks to convert to a plain base on Molds sometime so at least the cylindrical should be possible... I will be danged if I would do it with a drill press tho...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?205278-remove-gas-check-on-an-aluminum-mold

I just think the more available molds/rounds to test the better... I do have about $100 left before I am strapped for a good while... Hmmm this is so addicting.. even think of what I have I could sell to get my air rifle/casting challenge/fix...

[Wayne52]

Here is the ladle that I use.

[n2omike]

I have only found wheel weight and a pipe sealing ring(in the neighbors back yard   )... still have not used the wheel weights just my recovered pellets and the ring...   

What I was taught back in the day, when looking for SOFT lead to cast musket balls with...  was to check it, by trying to scratch it with your thumb nail.  If you can easily scratch it with your thumb nail, it was good.  Wheel weights are generally too hard.

Good Luck!

[Wayne52]

Wheel weights are definitely too hard, they say you can use them to make bullets for modern firearms but not good for muzzle loaders, I always went by being able to dent it with my thumbnail too.

[K.O.]

I have drawing pencils also for another rough test...

No not strait wheel weight guys .. as part of an alloy...to experiment with...

The hardness/strength that these things will like/tolerate depends on the rounds design  and the barrel it is being sent thru...

I bet we could have thin tall drive bands or small contact patches in some pellet designs... bet could like/stand a 10-12 BHN when using a hammer forged barrel... might even tolerate a mild choke better(or not) than a design made softer with wide drive bands/contact patches....

softer barrels more towards pure Pb of course...


switching up/back a bit...

Me I wish that they would bring back the Benji .22... I tend to think that as a .25 they and even longer designs in the same vein would be very hard hitting and accurate to about mid range... they are nose heavy because they are hollow all the way to the head... that lets them button out/expand very well...

If they fall on their face after 40-50 yards well then that will help kill the B.C. and range ... safer for shooting up into the trees at squirrels n such...

Bet they would out do the .25 crow mags, Benji destroyers and such...

Inet pic cropped and enlarged below...

[Nomadic Pirate]

Manny I can send you some but I need to get rid of the lead in my pot first, then I'll use some known really soft lead because I think the last hunk that I put in the pot had some tin in the mix.  I need to get back to a woods where I stashed a bunch of old sewer pipe for future pickup, there's still quite a bit out there including the stuff still in the ground that I didn't dig up.  Yes I can send you a hundred for testing when I get them molded for sure, I'll get in contact with you when I get them done.

Thanks Wayne, appreciate it ( really hope they shoot because I want to buy that mold, and the .30 cal real bad )

let me know when you ready and just tell me how much I need to send you,..thanks

[Rich_B]

Any more progress on this?

[oldpro]

 I shot mine again today and had no problem grouping UNTIL I turned up the power and it shot like a shot gun. I was shooting them really slow at 600fps but once I cranked it up it really started wandering. Is this a sign of too heavy a head or too long a pellet etc. Curious.

[Rich_B]

RPMs will bring out the worst. Like inconsistent spots in the nose get really bad the faster you spin them.

[Wayne52]

Cutting the sprue is going to throw the nose balance off no mater what you do IMO. I'm trying to figure out a way to shave the nose some without deforming the rest of the pellet, kinda hard with soft lead but I'll keep at it.

[K.O.]

I was going to ask what size is the sprue hole... I know he was able to go pretty small for the .22 30g BBT ~.125 or so I think... and the .25 40g BBT are about .155"

These are about the same weight as the 30g .22 so as long as the sprue plate is kept warm with a big puddle and  the pin are kept warm they should fill...

if modded to cylindrical/wider waist it will have a bit more hot lead to help a touch... so it should work with the .22 sprue hole size to reduce distortion... if it is not already that size...

a couple more thoughts... the heavier the weight of the pellet the smaller by percentage is the effect of that bit of distortion and with the wider waist or cylindrical waist the loading will be more spread out so  there should be less head distortion...

[K.O.]

I shot mine again today and had no problem grouping UNTIL I turned up the power and it shot like a shot gun. I was shooting them really slow at 600fps but once I cranked it up it really started wandering. Is this a sign of too heavy a head or too long a pellet etc. Curious.

Rich_B
"RPMs will bring out the worst. Like inconsistent spots in the nose get really bad the faster you spin them"

yep is probably part of the Problem... I think that pellets have a lot more in common with foster slugs than they do with a regular slug... I think they do actual require very little twist to work well...Pellets have less gyroscopic stability because the waist moves the weight inwards...   smooth twist is one and  shotguns sending a weight forward heavy pellet/ slugs is another... then there are the differences in the drag profile

the below link has a velocity plot of a foster slug at 450 fps notice that the body is flying in a low pressure zone already it will get bigger as velocity goes up towards 600-800 fps and the bigger the meplat/nose shape etc....but the pic is a good aid to visualize what a pellet does just  imagine a waist... and remember that a wad-cutter nose will have supersonic flow at the edges  starting at about 600fps... my point is that the pellets tail is providing less drag stabilization because of it...the rule is double the speed quadruple the drag... and we have a slightly out of balance nose that now matters more...

http://mcb-homis.com/slugcfd/slugcfd.html


I have head from a neighbor confirms what I have read... gets clover leafs a lot at 75 yards 2"-4" at 100 with 12 Gage K.O. Slugs... and it is just a big weight forward pellet

http://www.brennekeusa.com/hunting-ammunition/kotm/


150 or so yards offhand open sight torso shots with a foster slug...


Foster rpm thru one shotgun skip to about 1:30



so now thinking of pellets well the hemi nose is best for long distance... why..? I think it is partially due to the drag profile changing the least over the range of velocity... the low pressure bubble is smaller at higher velocity than semi dome, wad, and semi wad noses... so there is less shift away from drag stabilization to gyroscopic stabilization...

and when it comes to gyroscopic stabilization well the pellet can handle to much spin the best... why would that be...it is because of where the weight is...less on the outer diameter means less stabilization... the foster slug is more spin stabilized and then the solid slug is most...

So with the design of this pellet with the necessary meplat to be able to nose pour we have a pellet that as velocity increases wants more spin stabilization so just may handle the fact that we over spin it by comparison a bunch...

so now go to the drag function form and put in these numbers... link below...

http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/cgi-bin/drag_working.cgi?unit_length=inches&weight_unit=grains&bullet_name=dewc&re_calculate=yes&diameter=.250&length=.375&nose=.142&meplat=.162&drive_band=.250&base_diameter=.250&angle=0&boat_tail=0&secant_radius=&weight=29&density=8

Bullet diameter (inches) 
.250
Bullet length (inches) 
.375
Nose length (inches) 
.142
Meplat diameter (inches) 
.162
Drive-band diameter (inches) 
.250
Base diameter (inches)
.250
Boat-tail angle (degrees) 
0
Boat-tail length (inches) 
0
 
Bullet density
11.4 gms/cc  (soft lead non-jacketed)

and you  get the figures for a bullet of the same nose and length as our pellet that weighs 40g... and about a 1:25 twist at 500fps...

now it is time to jigger things a bit

 our pellet is about 32g... so 40 x .8 =32 so now change the density to 8 grms/cc and watch the twist rate needed rise for the same bullet at our 32g weight...

so is this a crude representation of our pellet at velocity..? it does sort of represent max twist we could possibly need to me...

so now enter those figs in the twist rate calc...

http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/barrel_twist.htm

I used  7gms/cc for a lighter pellet  cause I did this first as an estimate just to see the if I was close... what I got is below...shows my 1:19 twist XL 725 barrel looks good... the twist I used was L.W. 17.7

More to say about the mold and procedures but need a break... but I do think we can improve on the performance  and these can work as drawn...  so yep maybe a hint of some of the why of the 600 fps speed limit..?