Got my Hatsan AT44S-10 Long QE .25 cal

[Scott Endler]

Can you try a group with the shroud removed?

[RAJOD]

Sorry for the trouble you are having.  I have the same gun in .22 and it too was all over the place with some pellets.   I took the shroud baffles out and it tightened up well.   

It seemed to be pellet picky,  Shot JSB 25 gr .22 well but the 15.9s had quite a few tumblers.   

- Took copper wire .22 rimfire rod and scrubbed the bore
- Cleaned the barrel with goo gone (yellow liquid) till patches came out clean
- Put a regulator on it which keep the fps in a tighter range.

After that it shot jsb 18s pretty well but still a few tumblers 7/8" group of 10 at 70 yards. The 15.9s are still a little inaccurate though.   I feel it can do better.

Some of the issue were the baffles and maybe the dirty barrel and fps.   Not sure why a gun can shoot 7 great shots then get 3 out of left field.   My Daystate with the same pellets does not have nearly as many tumblers.  Need a day without high wind to test it more.

I'm curious if a new barrel cures the problem.

[JoeV]

I received a shipment of JSB 25.4's from PA today, so I'm taking it out tomorrow morning before emailing Hatsan. The weather is calling for sunny with 55F, and 4-5 mph variable winds. I'll see if they shoot differently than the Air Arms Fiels 25.4's, but I'm not holding out for much difference. The shroud nut is barely snug, so there's no chance of torquing the barrel. As to removing the shroud, that defeats the reason I bought the QE. If the shroud is a problem, then I don't want the gun. I have a Hatsan 125TH in .25, and the 95 Vortex in .25, both which are both too loud for my liking. The QE is very quiet compare to this two.

[RAJOD]

As to removing the shroud, that defeats the reason I bought the QE. If the shroud is a problem, then I don't want the gun. I have a Hatsan 125TH in .25, and the 95 Vortex in .25, both which are both too loud for my liking. The QE is very quiet compare to this two.

Yes I agree on the shroud.  I took it off as an experiment to see if it made any difference.  It did.  I was wondering if they had the baffles in backwards, or maybe slightly out of alignment.   I put them back in.  I wonder if that port hole in the shroud removes back pressure or what part that plays with any air turbulence in the silencer end of it.

Not sure if it was clipping the baffles or maybe they were not perfectly aligned.   Its shooting better now but it seems to have a narrow range of FPS for its sweet spot for the 18s.  Its under 900 fps.   800-860 range, did quite a bit of testing with the chrony.    Found a good fps but now the hammer screw lowers power after 100 shots so have to pull it apart to lock tite it.

I did not pull the barrel yet, just wire brushed it just short of the port then pulled patches using a nylon line from the breach end.   Was just saving time from having to take it apart.

[Scott Endler]

As to removing the shroud, that defeats the reason I bought the QE.

Just a simple test. The shroud is well known to push the barrel around on the Marauders. Loose, tight with re-machining, it still does it. Most guys end up putting foam in the barrel band to try to pin the shroud down to hold it still. but the Hatsan doesn't have the band at the muzzle like the Marauder. And this is a bandaid anyway that still leads to poi shifts as the air tube flexxes down versus pressure.
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Just try it with the shroud off. If it shoots better without the shroud, then we can come up with a fix. Such as I am doing with my Marauder by cutting the shroud down and rethreading so that the rear mount is repositioned to 6 inches from the muzzle so that you still get all of the quietness but the shroud no longer has any leverage to bind up on the threads and o rings to push the barrel around.

[Old Corps]

Really sorry to read of Joe's troubles with the .25 AT44 Long, especially since my refurb .25 Bullboss from Hatsan USA is on the FedEx truck for delivery today. Same rifle in different clothes. I've got the AT44 Short in .22 and it's a tack driver. We shall see. Good luck Joe!

Ed

[colorider]

I seriously think it is the qe shroud causing your problems.  It seems that 99% of people with a non qe version own a tack driver, and people with the qe versions have a LOT more problems with accuracy.   I recently passed on an amazing deal from fieldsupply on a qe At44 tactical because it was a qe version.  Strangely, the qe versions of the Hatsan rifles were on sale for a much larger discount than the non qe versions.  Almost looks like Hatsan is prepping to discontinue the qe platform or at least fieldsupply is dumping them.   
My at44 short in 22 flavor was a tack driver right out of the box with cheap cp domes.  Now it's a tack driver with jsb 16gr and all I did was up the fps a tad with the hammer screw. 

[RAJOD]

I seriously think it is the qe shroud causing your problems.  It seems that 99% of people with a non qe version own a tack driver, and people with the qe versions have a LOT more problems with accuracy.   I recently passed on an amazing deal from fieldsupply on a qe At44 tactical because it was a qe version.  Strangely, the qe versions of the Hatsan rifles were on sale for a much larger discount than the non qe versions.  Almost looks like Hatsan is prepping to discontinue the qe platform or at least fieldsupply is dumping them.   
My at44 short in 22 flavor was a tack driver right out of the box with cheap cp domes.  Now it's a tack driver with jsb 16gr and all I did was up the fps a tad with the hammer screw.

Sound like Barnaby Jones air gun sleuth.   
So you have determined that the QE models have targeting issues due to the engineering of the Silencer?   

The gun without the Silencer is way too loud and like the OP said that was the entire point of getting one.   It very well could be the issue.   The actual barrel on these airguns is so thin it could flex.   I wish they made them like .22 rim fire barrels, so thick they can't bend.   

If true the fix could be as simple as loosening the bolt inside the silencers.  That would reduce any bending of the inner barrel due to the shroud.

[Scott Endler]

If true the fix could be as simple as loosening the bolt inside the silencers.  That would reduce any bending of the inner barrel due to the shroud.

Loose is probably better. Here is a video of a Marauder comparing various tighnesses of the shroud to a group with no shroud. The no shroud performance could be duplicated while maintaining the quietness by cutting down the shroud and moving the rear shroud mount closer to the end of the muzzle so that the shroud has no leverage to push the barrel around after every shot.
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[Scott Endler]

Something like this.
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[Rallyshark]

I also know a slightly warped barrel will compound any alignment issues.  I've seen a few Hatsans that the barrel wasn't perfectly straight on.  I swapped out the barrel on my bullboss on my dime, and that also alleviated the air cylinder resting against the bottome of the shroud.  It turned out the barrel was just slightly warped, and I never knew it.  The warped barrel may normally present itself as problem on a non shrouded gun, since there are no clearance issues and it will still likely shoot well.

[JoeV]

Well, I believe the shroud & QE baffles are the culprit to the accuracy of this gun. Here is the final sequence of targets that I'll present, as I'm through with this gun. This first target is in the basement at 12 yards. The shroud nut is barely tight holding the shroud in place. I charged the cylinder to 150 bar and shot one clip, with all 9 shots somewhat raggedy within the zero range of -.51" at 12 yards. I'm on my full bench rest, and felt the group should have been tighter.





Today I went outside to my friend's property and spent the next three hours and 126 JSB King 25.4 pellets shooting groups that I'll narrate. All bulls are 9-shot groups.


Target sheet #1, all shots at 25 yards with full bench rest. Bulls 1&2 were shot from the the residual fill from the night before. Bull 1 is a respectable group, but bull 2 is feeling the effects of diminishing air volume as the velocity changes and vortices in the baffles alter the ballistics of the pellet due to change in pressure within the baffles. This will be the pattern for all future bulls.  Bull 3 was after topping off to 150 bar, shows how the first shots don't like the climb in velocity, bull 4 is a nice group, but getting to bull 5 shows the same effect as bull 3.





Target sheet #3 is telling. Topping off to 150 bar and removing the shroud, bull 1 shows a huge variance in POI without the shroud. Despite being high and left, the group is tighter than previous first clip groups with the shroud in place. I put the shroud back on with the shroud nut just "finger tight," topped off the air and shot a nice group with the first clip.


Feeling confident that the shroud problem is alleviated, I moved the target out to 40 yards, used a 1/2 mil holdover, and shot an abysmal 9-shot clip into bull 3. Feeling frustrated at this point, but I'm determined to continue. I topped off air again and shot a terrible first clip group into bull 4. I loaded another clip and shot two shots at the center bull to determine where it was actually hitting, then used 3/4 mil holdover, and shot a typical second clip group.





Be patient, I'm down to the last target sheet! 😜


I moved the target out to 50 yards, and shot bull 1 with clip 3 from the last fill, getting the expected poor results with 1-1/4 mil holdover. Topped off the air, and bulls 2, 3 & 4 gave expected results of poor, good and final poor.





In the final analysis, this is a 9-shot gun. It's only on target for the sweet spot of 9 shots, and useless the rest of the time. I didn't do ny additional testing with the shroud off, because this is a QE, and I wanted a quiet gun. Is a moot point to prove that it shoots well without the shroud. I believe that the shroud and baffles design are what makes this gun shoot poorly. The airflow within the shroud reacts differently with the change in pressure as the velocity climbs and falls,coupled with a barrel that is choked at the breech instead of the muzzle, which may, or may not, contribute to this poor performance.


I'm open to any suggestion of what I may have missed or done differently, but I think I've proven that the QE has a problem. I seem to remember Baxter Walton (bwalton) shooting an At44-10 in one or more of his videos. I can't remember if it was a QE, but i do remember that it was modified to make it shoot accurately at longer distances.


Unless I hear that I've gone down the wrong path, I'm going to see about getting a refund on this gun. Based on some comments here, the QE is more hassle than it's worth. For $200+ Less money, my Walther Parrus .22 will outshoot this gun all,day long. I've got the squirrels in the freezer to prove it. All head shots out to 40-45 yards.


Thanks for listening to my rant, but with owning four other Hatsans that are all tack drivers, I really held out hope that this gun could be part of the inventory. Alas, it's not meant to be.

[Rallyshark]

I've never had a problem like this with any of the QE Hatsans I've dealt with.  As I mentioned earlier, I had one with a slightly warped barrel, but it was still more accurate than that.  My AT-44 Long, Bullboss, others' AT44s, Galatians etc. have always been tack drivers for the most part.  I think your barrel just isn't up to snuff  

[RAJOD]

I think I figured out the issue with the QE tonight.   

You need to take the shroud completely off and shoot it.   With the shroud off it changed the POI around 2 feet at 70 yards.   The reason?  They left a washer off the front of the stock.  That made it so the barrel with no shroud was still touching the top of the front barrel strap.   So with the shroud on it was pushing the barrel down.   

I inserted one large washer inside the stock (there is a round cut out for one)  It needs it to push the barrel band up higher.  With the washer in place the shroud can be slipped back on with no binding or bending of the barrel.   

Then drilled out the silencer baskets (the pellets were clipping them)
Put it all back together and at least inside at 12 yards it was 9 of 10 pellet on pellet.
And it is still quite.

So shoot it with the shroud completely off.   Then if it shoots well enough you can put it back together and not have the shroud flex the barrel at all.

Mine has one other issue too.  I pulled the barrel out completely and found someone at Hatsan must have put a large set screw (larger than the ones that hold the barrel) and messed up the O rings.  Can't be easily fixed so will need to get a new barrel.

Pellets clipping silencer


Bad photo attempting to show that without the spacer washer the barrel band is not close to being aligned with the barrel.   If you put it together it will flex the barrel.


The gap between the barrel and shroud should be enough to allow the shroud to slip in without any resistance, that was achieved by putting a washer in the stock.


Here is the end of the barrel that goes into the breach.   See how some large diameter screw scarred it up to the point the O rings are distorted.   Anyone have an idea of how they did that at the factory?    The diameter is too large for the set screws to have done it.    There was some air blow by where the O rings meet that burr.


I'll test it out further in the next day or two.   Sun went down but inside it was grouping much better.   8/10 hole in hole at 35 feet.  Still gets a crazy flier 1 of 10 with JSB 18s.

I'm thinking Hatsan owes me a new barrel.

I'm not giving up on the gun  just yet, but it is clear Hatsan has some quality control issues.

I love how easy it is to take the barrel out, adjust the hammer screw etc.   But in the end the gun has to shoot well too. 

[RAJOD]

JoeV,

I can see why you are frustrated on this gun.   It really needs a regulator to keep the fps in a decent range.   I did that and it now does 30+ shots in the 840-870 range with JSB 18s.  Prior to that it had too large a range IMHO.  The regulator was on sale at Midway for like 70.00.

So even if you got the barrel issue fixed you still might want the reg.   

[JoeV]

I think I figured out the issue with the QE tonight.   

You need to take the shroud completely off and shoot it.   With the shroud off it changed the POI around 2 feet at 70 yards.   The reason?  They left a washer off the front of the stock.  That made it so the barrel with no shroud was still touching the top of the front barrel strap.   So with the shroud on it was pushing the barrel down.   

I inserted one large washer inside the stock (there is a round cut out for one)  It needs it to push the barrel band up higher.  With the washer in place the shroud can be slipped back on with no binding or bending of the barrel.   

Then drilled out the silencer baskets (the pellets were clipping them)
Put it all back together and at least inside at 12 yards it was 9 of 10 pellet on pellet.
And it is still quite.

So shoot it with the shroud completely off.   Then if it shoots well enough you can put it back together and not have the shroud flex the barrel at all.

Mine has one other issue too.  I pulled the barrel out completely and found someone at Hatsan must have put a large set screw (larger than the ones that hold the barrel) and messed up the O rings.  Can't be easily fixed so will need to get a new barrel.

Pellets clipping silencer


Bad photo attempting to show that without the spacer washer the barrel band is not close to being aligned with the barrel.   If you put it together it will flex the barrel.


The gap between the barrel and shroud should be enough to allow the shroud to slip in without any resistance, that was achieved by putting a washer in the stock.


Here is the end of the barrel that goes into the breach.   See how some large diameter screw scarred it up to the point the O rings are distorted.   Anyone have an idea of how they did that at the factory?    The diameter is too large for the set screws to have done it.    There was some air blow by where the O rings meet that burr.


I'll test it out further in the next day or two.   Sun went down but inside it was grouping much better.   8/10 hole in hole at 35 feet.  Still gets a crazy flier 1 of 10 with JSB 18s.

I'm thinking Hatsan owes me a new barrel.

I'm not giving up on the gun  just yet, but it is clear Hatsan has some quality control issues.

I love how easy it is to take the barrel out, adjust the hammer screw etc.   But in the end the gun has to shoot well too.

Thanks for the details. Out of curiosity, have you tried pushing a pellet through the barrel from breech to muzzle? I'm thinking that since mine appears to be choked on the wrong end, that at lower velocities the pellet is reacting to barrel inconsistencies. Would be curious to see how your barrel is built.


As to "needing" a regulator, Hatsan should build it into the gun if it "needs" a regulator. Otherwise, it's poor design on their part, and they're selling guns with known problems. I shouldn't have to spend $70 to make the gun work as advertised. The advertising says "25-35 optimal shots/fill, integral moderator -- a real hunting machine!" it says nothing about the first 9 shots and last 9 shots spraying all over the target. It says OPTIMAL shots, which I interpret as at least 25 lethal, accurate shots before accuracy degrades. THEIR design, not MY [/size]improvements, should deliver what it takes to accomplish that. Agreed?[/color]
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[/size]Gotta get some sleep or I'll be a grumpy bear in the morning. Thanks for your continued contributions.[/color]

[RAJOD]

JoeV,  Sorry I forgot to do that push the pellet test.   

I will try to pull it apart again when I have some time and let you know.  I'm curious too.

I will say without the regulator my .22 shot JSB Monsters pretty good but not the 18s or 16s they were like yours all over.     

Another issue is the barrel grubs (dents) for the set screws do not line up.  I would need to push the barrel in a little further which can't be done.   So they either miss drilled the breach block set holes or the grubs on the barrel.   Not sure it that has anything to do with accuracy though.   

Cleaning the barrel and getting the shroud aligned did help a bunch.   

I left a note on Hatsan USA, looks like they finally got a new site up, it was not there when I ordered the gun or it was in "under repair" type status.

I asked for either a barrel swap or the gun is going back to Midway.

Waiting for a reply.

Its a under $500.00 gun so I tried to keep my expectations in check.  The gun is very close to being a winner just the quality control seems to be an issue.

[colorider]

Guess you can take back your jab at me being the Barnaby Jones Gun Sleuth when I said it's the shroud causing the problem.  Lol.

[JoeV]

Ant an email to Hatsan last night and referenced this thread. The acknowledged receipt and just waiting to hear back.


The shroud nut is just on finger snug to hold in place, but the problem persists. I'm going with a bad rifling job.

[RAJOD]

Guess you can take back your jab at me being the Barnaby Jones Gun Sleuth when I said it's the shroud causing the problem.  Lol.

LOL, that was no jab man or uppercut I love me some Barnaby "Buddy Epsen" Jones
I was just not sure it was a system wide bust by the company.

I think I may be washing my hands of the Hatsan and getting a BSA now.