PP700 adventure started(Artemis PP700s-a)

[Rallyshark]

Okay, so if I'm reading this right, Donny... you're getting a 20 FPE tune on a .177 pistol that has only 67 CC volume and it's good for ~ 20 shots?  On the regulator? 

Needless to say, that's really impressive.

And I still think these little buggers would be magical with a .25 barrel.  Yeah, it would be relatively slow- about like a .25 springer... which is perfect for short range on medium size things.

It is pretty good for the power coming out of a pistol, but the efficiency is not all that high.  Still, it is with a 10.5"(guessing), I suppose it isn't horrible 

You guys gave me the first ever worthwhile reason to consider joining Facebook. 

Lots of groups on FB for air gunners and other shooting sports. just dont do the stereotypical FB stuff and you'll be fine......

LOL, I still haven't joined.

Though my wife and I were joking about creating one for our Boston Terrier. 


I'm throwing around the idea of getting another PP700 (ordering it and an HW-30) from Krale specifically to have a .25 barrel for it.  I cannot think of any pistol that would be easier to convert given the configuration. 

You guys need to get in on that facebook stuff for the airgun groups!  There is a wealth of info for these pistols.

Nice! I really need to drag the dremel out and open things up a bit...

Yes, yes you do   "Getting the dremel out" is pretty much a given for me when I get a new gun,haha.  Granted, I have caused myself problems with that philosophy before, but it usually works out in the end.

[SilentMatt]

Wow, very impressed with this gun! Much higher quality than I expected(better than Kral...).

I haven't shot at paper yet, but a friend and I were shooting small pine cones at 40 yards standing with the open sights. Granted we only hit them maybe 50%
of the time, but all the shots were very close. I even grazed a hanging golf ball at 60 yards. It seem to shoot both the CPHP's and JSB 15gr's good.
Can't wait to get a stock and some optics on it. My original plan was a 12-14" LW barrel, but I'll hold off till I see how it groups. It definitely needs a good moderator.

[anti-squirrel]

Wow, very impressed with this gun! Much higher quality than I expected(better than Kral...).

I haven't shot at paper yet, but a friend and I were shooting small pine cones at 40 yards standing with the open sights. Granted we only hit them maybe 50%
of the time, but all the shots were very close. I even grazed a hanging golf ball at 60 yards. It seem to shoot both the CPHP's and JSB 15gr's good.
Can't wait to get a stock and some optics on it. My original plan was a 12-14" LW barrel, but I'll hold off till I see how it groups. It definitely needs a good moderator.

My own experience, plus David's (Rocker1) and Wayne's mimic these. 

I don't know if these are in-house SPA barrels or what, but they are darn good.  I thought my own experiences hitting small target at 35 yards were a rarity, but it seems everybody is getting a great barrel.

[Wayne52]

This morning before I went hunting I did a string with my latest adjustments, I had the regulator set too high for the hammer and the hammer was maxed.
I backed of on the regulator a little and now I'm really seeing this regulator work better in the gun, I'm calling this my sweet spot for this gun. I must
admit the more that I use the gun the better the trigger is (by far now), Rocker was right about these guns they're a lot of fun.

[riverboats]

Wow, very impressed with this gun! Much higher quality than I expected(better than Kral...).

I haven't shot at paper yet, but a friend and I were shooting small pine cones at 40 yards standing with the open sights. Granted we only hit them maybe 50%
of the time, but all the shots were very close. I even grazed a hanging golf ball at 60 yards. It seem to shoot both the CPHP's and JSB 15gr's good.
Can't wait to get a stock and some optics on it. My original plan was a 12-14" LW barrel, but I'll hold off till I see how it groups. It definitely needs a good moderator.

The lack of a stock is the only reason I don't have one, they look like fun guns. Are you planning to engineer something up or did you find a stock? I've heard rumors of a mostly England based facebook group that has stocks and mods but I don't really do the facebook thing.

edited: Just remembered you are the guy machining helicopter and kral parts. I guess you already have a design for a stock in mind?

[SilentMatt]

I've got one in the works. You should buy one, it's a blast even without a stock.

[riverboats]

I've got one in the works. You should buy one, it's a blast even without a stock.

Yeh I was editing while you responded, remembered who ya were. Yeh I may buy one, I just can't shoot without optics because of really bad vision and pistol scopes just don't work for me. I don't shoot a pistol arms stretched as far as I can, especially not out in the real world while leaning on trees or truck hoods.

Maybe a red dot get me by till you cook something up.

[shultz]

I've got one in the works. You should buy one, it's a blast even without a stock.

+1

Riverboat, if a pcp pistol appeals to you at all this is the one. It's small and light enough to be an actual pistol...

In contrast, my Marauder "pistols" aka Prods are far better carbines than pistols. Simply to big and heavy.

It will take an extraordinarily designed stock to make me buy one for either my MKI or MKII. I'm simply enjoying them far to much as pistols

[riverboats]

I've got one in the works. You should buy one, it's a blast even without a stock.

+1

Riverboat, if a pcp pistol appeals to you at all this is the one. It's small and light enough to be an actual pistol...

In contrast, my Marauder "pistols" aka Prods are far better carbines than pistols. Simply to big and heavy.

It will take an extraordinarily designed stock to make me buy one for either my MKI or MKII. I'm simply enjoying them far to much as pistols

Yeh I understand this is definately more of a pistol than a Marauder "pistol". But for my purposes this thing will be great as a pistol and even better a carbine than the Marauder. It will be even more backpack or kayak friendly in either form than a Marauder. Plus I am kinda thinking about the 177, hard decision.

[Rallyshark]

This morning before I went hunting I did a string with my latest adjustments, I had the regulator set too high for the hammer and the hammer was maxed.
I backed of on the regulator a little and now I'm really seeing this regulator work better in the gun, I'm calling this my sweet spot for this gun. I must
admit the more that I use the gun the better the trigger is (by far now), Rocker was right about these guns they're a lot of fun.

That is pretty solid string right there!  I'm really wondering what the GTO pellets would do in it?  I have a tin of the GTOs that I've never shot in .22, but my pistol is .177, so...   

I think the easiest thing you can do if you want to up the juice a little bit, is to open up the valve spring retaining screw(or nut).  All the air has to make through that choke point, and it is a pretty easy thing to do.  I'd be curious to see what the effect would be, if only that was done and no other changes made.

I've got one in the works. You should buy one, it's a blast even without a stock.

+1

Riverboat, if a pcp pistol appeals to you at all this is the one. It's small and light enough to be an actual pistol...

In contrast, my Marauder "pistols" aka Prods are far better carbines than pistols. Simply to big and heavy.

It will take an extraordinarily designed stock to make me buy one for either my MKI or MKII. I'm simply enjoying them far to much as pistols

Yeh I understand this is definately more of a pistol than a Marauder "pistol". But for my purposes this thing will be great as a pistol and even better a carbine than the Marauder. It will be even more backpack or kayak friendly in either form than a Marauder. Plus I am kinda thinking about the 177, hard decision.

I love mine in .177, but I don't think you could go wrong in either caliber to be honest.  I like having the .177 for the flatter trajectory, but the .22 will make more energy.

[Ozarkairgunner]

I got mine in .22 and it's still stock, no mods yet but I've got it tuned for 35 shots at 14fpe, really wishing I had the money for another in .177. On a side note I've order a blank from Boyds and going to work on a carbine style stock and revisit my optics, probably going with a UTG bug buster.

[Kid Shelleen]

I'm still trying to get my .177 adjusted to shoot a decent string.  I'm trying to get it set up to shoot an average of about 650 fps, within about a 4% spread for around 40 - 50 shots.

My gun has had about 500 rounds through it.  Right now the hammer spring is set around medium and the transfer port is about half way down (CW).  I’m not sure about the regulator but I think it’s about 30 degrees in (CW) from the factory setting.  This is my third chrony test and the general results look similar to the first two.  After filling the gun, I shoot 5 rounds to settle the regulator.  The string starts to rise right from the beginning, tops out then starts to go down again.  I don’t know much about regulators but to me this does not look like the regulator is working or at least not working very well.

This third test was from a 3,000 psi fill.  The string started at 591, went up to 662 and down to 589.

Question 1.:  To get my string to start closer to the mid 630’s, is it best to start at a lower fill pressure (say around 170 BAR or would it be better to increase the regulator (turn CW in), or open the transfer port more (CCW) or increase the pressure on the hammer spring?  I’m guessing all of these would increase the fps of the first shots but which is preferable?

Question2:  Is there anything I might be able to do to the regulator that will allow it to work more efficiently or should I just disable the reg.

Thanks for the help.  Shelleen

Latest String.  3,000 psi start.  End at about 1300 psi  (If I take the middle part of the group starting at 635 and ending at 637, it's within the 4% and about 45 shots).
591. 599. 598. 599. 603. 607. 607. 608. 614. 614. 613. 615. 624. 627. 621. 632. 628. 629. 635. 631. 641. 640. 637. 640. 639. 644. 635. 644. 649. 647. 650. 649. 649. 646. 648. 651. 657. 659. 659. 662. 658. 659. 656. 661. 659. 655. 652. 634. 647. 657. 656. 649. 660. 656. 655. 652. 651. 659. 650. 650. 644. 641. 637. 628. 619. 615. 610. 605. 595. 589.

[bandg]

I'm not a regulator expert by any means (really know very little about how they function) but it does seem like the unit as configured simply cannot reduce the pressure available to the plenum when fill pressure is near 3k but seems to be "regulating" at some lower starting range.   In your case seems you could fill lower and still have a very good usable shot count.  Might have a few less shots but looks like it would still be quite a few.  I would check the fill pressure when the velocity neared the 630 point and fill to that point as a starting fill for another string.  First shot accuracy is important to many so eliminating the 5 throw away shots would be helpful if possible.  Keep us informed as this information is quite useful.

Thinking in simple mechanical terms, I'm wondering if the very small size of the regulator unit may make it difficult for it to function over a wide enough range to provide the desired coverage from 3k down to a noticeably lower pressure.  Could it be that the size/design of the regulator limits its possible effective range?   Would a belleville arrangement like this (()))))) take the top of the range to near 3k and would it then still fall off the regulator at a relatively higher pressure due to the effective range being inherently narrow. 

Any information from the regulator savvy is appreciated as I will at some point start tinkering with mine as well.

[Rallyshark]

I could be all wet here, but I never touch that transfer port screw.  I screwed it down to the edge of the hole, so it would be full open, but not give the air more space to fill with the screw farther out.  After that, I do all my adjustments with the reg and hammer spring.  I haven't touched that transfer screw since the day I first took the gun apart.  I think that transfer adjustment screw may have been an easy solution to meet low fpe restrictions in some countries.

I have noticed that mine tends to do a better job of regulating with the regulator adjustment on the high side.  In other words, with the regulator set at higher pressure.  It just seems to have more control that way.  Oh, and make sure you do your adjustments of the regulator with the cylinder pressure low, preferably below 100 bar.  It may not make a bit of difference, but give the adjuster another 1/4 to 1/2 turn in(CW).  Then use the hammer adjustment to get the velocity in the ballpark you want. 

Like I said, I could be completely off base, but that is what has worked for me.  Granted, I am running a much higher velocity, so your results my vary.

[Kid Shelleen]

“…it does seem like the unit as configured simply cannot reduce the pressure available to the plenum when fill pressure is near 3k but seems to be "regulating" at some lower starting range.”  “I'm wondering if the very small size of the regulator unit may make it difficult for it to function over a wide enough range to provide the desired coverage from 3k down to a noticeably lower pressure.  Could it be that the size/design of the regulator limits its possible effective range?”


Thanks Bandg for your thoughts on the small regulator.  That seems to be what I am experiencing but that could be because I am trying to tune for a lower power and higher shot count. Changing the Belleville arrangement might allow one to go to a more useable higher fill pressure.  I’ve read Bob Sterne’s recent information on different Belleville arrangements for the PP700 but for a novice like me, it would take a lot of trial and error to come up with any conclusions on what was effective for what I want.  I’ve played with different Belleville arrangements on small air tanks for my QB’s but not on air gun regulators.

Thank you too Rallyshark for the information on your tuning methods and mostly for starting this great thread.  The information has been invaluable to me, as I’m sure it has to many others.

With the information from this thread and a couple of others, I think I’ve gotten close to what I want.  I shot a few more rounds through the PP700S-A today and I’ve got close to the 40 – 50 good shots at an average of around 650 fps with a SD around 3 – 4.   I started out with my previous settings but with a 150 bar fill again.  This started my string at just about the 650 fps I wanted.  The Low was 644, the high was 658 and the SD was under 3.5.  The thing is, I’m really not sure how much of a role the “regulator” had in arriving here because I tuned the gun using the adjustments I would use on an unregulated gun.  I don’t have exact adjustments but the Hammer Spring is adjusted about half way in (just between free floating and fully compressed).  The transfer port is screwed in (CW) about half way from being level with the top of the breech block to being bottomed out.  I’m not sure about the regulator adjustment because I didn’t check the setting from the factory but I think I ended up loosening it  (CCW) about  45 degrees (1/8 of a turn) from the factory setting.  If it continues to shoot like this, I’ll be happy.  The 150 bar starting fill will allow me to get a lot of fills from my scuba tank which I also use for my Discos that I fill to 150 bar.  That will allow me to use my 4500 psi tank for just filling my 3,000 psi rifles and I won’t have to have that tank filled so often.  The one disadvantage of this tune is that I had to increase the hammer spring from where I had set it so I went from a 1.7 lb. trigger back up to a 3 lb. trigger.


PP700S-A, 150 bar fill, end at 100 bar (646 fps),  Crosman WC 7.4gr.

649. 652. 652. 648. 655. 652. 656. 650. 652. 648. 647. 648. 656. 647. 651. 651. 652. 653. 648. 649. 648. 644. 645. 649. 650. 650. 651. 649. 646. 644. 643. 645. 648. 651. 648. 653. 650. 654. 653. 655. 658. 654. 651. 649. 646. 643. 637. 636. 629

You can see that just after the 649 shot it started to drop off steadily.

I don’t know much about regulators but I thought that the advantage of a regulated gun was that you could fill it to any pressure you wanted (as long as it wasn’t over the max allowable) and the gun would shoot at a relatively consistent speed until the pressure dropped passed the set point of the regulator.  With the PP700 I’m not seeing that at all. 

[Ribbonstone]

Consider the pellets...Crosman WC's are about the cheapest pellets I can find locally...and I've found them to vary a bit.  I've actually gotten some good shooting with them after I've sorted out the miss-fits.

Don't know what you really expect, dropping the last 3 shots as being "off reg", you've got a nice string of 47 shots with in 2%  of max (OK...with the two 643 shots being 1FPS low to make the 2% cut off).

 At the ranges we'd shoot, you'd never tell the difference between 1% variation and 3%.

Regulators do give proportional results in some ways.  If you can get 47 good shots starting at 150BAR, you'll get 62-63 shots if filled to 200BAR.

[Rallyshark]

It does seem that these regulators only seem to regulate well on higher power tunes.  I also noticed that all the folks across the pond, who are limited to 5fpe, usually do around a 160 bar fill.  Mike, it seems your results are almost identical to what those guys over there are getting with the lower power tunes. You are correct on what the benefit of a regulator should be.  It just seems the ones in these guns have narrow windows where they actually regulate as they should. 

The way I see it, what you have is pretty good and you don't have use as much air out of your tank.  That sounds like a win to me!  If you were to do it the way I suggested, then you'd have to set the reg higher and fill higher.  You would see a reduction in loudness though, since it would be tuned on the downside of the knee.  Either way, it looks like you have it under control  

[Kid Shelleen]

Thanks for the input Ribbonstone, not on just this question but all the others.  I’ve learned a LOT from your posts and saved a bunch of them for future reference.  As for the cheap CCWC pellets, I knew I was going to go through a lot of pellets during this process so used the cheapest that were close to the 7.0 gr. I was intending to use in this gun.  I’ll mainly be shooting RWS MK’s and R10’s once I get things sorted out.  This gun seem to like both of those.

“Regulators do give proportional results in some ways.  If you can get 47 good shots starting at 150BAR, you'll get 62-63 shots if filled to 200BAR.”

That’s the way I thought regs.  were supposed to work but all the settings I tried (about 5 or 6 different combinations) with a 200 bar fill, were REALLY bad.  I got the increased shot count but poor performance.  Some started really low and just kept climbing until they suddenly dropped off.   Other settings started low, went up really high then back down again, like an unregulated gun except the high went really high.  It could have been just a result of the settings I used (I’m a novice at tuning) but I’ve read where a number of other people are having similar issues with the regulator on this gun.  The folks filling to 200 bar with success seem to be those that are tuning for more power (as Donny noted).

That being said, I’m pretty happy with the way it’s shooting now.  If it stays this way and doesn’t go wonky, I’ll be very pleased.  For the price, it’s a great gun and shoots reasonably accurate.  I also like the way most of the adjustments can be made without taking the gun apart or just taking the grip off.  Being able to get 45 shots from a 150 bar fill in the power range I want is great.

[Wayne52]

I'd say that's a great string you got there Mike !!!

[Cyknife]

Ah... you all have prompted me to spend more $. Just ordered from spain.