Copy paste airguns

[anti-squirrel]

I watched a video of a guy taking a shovel and making an AK receiver by careful folding and cutting....  The bottom line is there are some really good designs out there.  The FX Impact is well-thought-out and very recognizable... and also has a modular design, thus is easy to replicate.  Remove some of the fiddly bits (all the adjustments) and maybe they feel their gun isn't outright plagiarism...

  Since Malaysia is somewhere between third- and first-world (no offense to anybody who lives there), it is pretty clear these guys are doing what they can with what is perceived to be one of the best designs in airgunning.

Again, not condoning it.  And I'll say the Priest is less of a copy/paste than these by a long shot.  The Priest has a side-charging bolt, not a sidelever.

[45Bravo]

Watched a tv documentary week ago in Columbia these guys were making real guns from near nothing way out in the boonies, they were making 45 kimber clones and you could not see the difference other than one had a serial number, took him 5 months to make one and was paid 115 bucks but by the time it reached its destination it was in the thousands because it was a untraceable gun. Its a shame but what can you do about a 3rd world country. David

They have been doing the same thing in Afghanistan for decades.

A friend is an avid collector of such guns.
I have held in my hands a hand built copy of a p08 Luger, and a hand built copy of a 1911.

Not the best quality, but dude, ITS HAND MADE FROM SCRATCH, and don't bet it won't shoot!

[Bizill]

So I was seriously contemplating getting something like a warP but I simply CANNOT get over the fact that to me it looks EXACTLY like an AR-15 pistol/carbine.  Ouch.  Go ahead and ban me for the truth.

[QVTom]

What, do you mean that's NOT the newest FX production facility in the video? It would have explained the quality challenges they've had lately

LMBO :O AoA WHERE IS MY REPLACEMENT SCREW?

Seriously, you get what you pay for and sometime much more.  All manufactures know they are going to get knocked off eventually.  Look at what happened to Edgun.  Cloned by the East and West.

In the final analysis, quality and useful innovation prevail.


Tom

[Bizill]

So I was seriously contemplating getting something like a warP but I simply CANNOT get over the fact that to me it looks EXACTLY like an AR-15 pistol/carbine.  Ouch.  Go ahead and ban me for the truth.

So anyway, that was a "gotcha" sort of example.  I seriously AM contemplating getting the warP but I'm not digging the marketing strategy being employed here and the other thread.

Save comments for what the guys in this thread's opening post are doing.  I understand similar traits compared to blatant copying and there exists a fine line, but I stand by my quote above as it holds true.  Yet I am not accusing warP of being a "copy".  I'm just trying to open some eyes.

[anti-squirrel]

What, do you mean that's NOT the newest FX production facility in the video? It would have explained the quality challenges they've had lately

LMBO :O AoA WHERE IS MY REPLACEMENT SCREW?

Seriously, you get what you pay for and sometime much more.  All manufactures know they are going to get knocked off eventually.  Look at what happened to Edgun.  Cloned by the East and West.

In the final analysis, quality and useful innovation prevail.


Tom

I'll add to that- form follows function as well.  Throw in some specs and design criteria, then see how many ideas end up looking alike.  I've seen it in everything from exercise equipment to tables saws, lawnmowers to cars, and certainlty in airguns and powderburners.  There's only so many ways you can throw some components together before you start having designs start looking the same.  Case in point- the Impact versus the Priest.  The Priest is more low-slung with a lower profile and has a side-bolt on the left side versus a sidelever on the right.  Sure they look alike to a point, much like most break-barrel springers look alike, most mid-size 4 door sedans look alike, and most radial arm saws look alike.   

[Extreme]

    This is a good read!! Out of my league for me to respond on. Many guns made not much room for creating one that's different. Safety is the most important issue in any product.
  Take care Fellas

[45Bravo]

So I was seriously contemplating getting something like a warP but I simply CANNOT get over the fact that to me it looks EXACTLY like an AR-15 pistol/carbine.  Ouch.  Go ahead and ban me for the truth.

While it's black, tubular shaped, and has a pistol grip, it reminds me more of a keltec sub2000.

What if it does look like one?
That doesn't make it one.

A friend had a kitcar that looked like a Lamborghini, on a vw chassis.
Did that make it a lambo?
No. it just kinda looked like one. 

[QVTom]

So I was seriously contemplating getting something like a warP but I simply CANNOT get over the fact that to me it looks EXACTLY like an AR-15 pistol/carbine.  Ouch.  Go ahead and ban me for the truth.

So anyway, that was a "gotcha" sort of example.  I seriously AM contemplating getting the warP but I'm not digging the marketing strategy being employed here and the other thread.

Save comments for what the guys in this thread's opening post are doing.  I understand similar traits compared to blatant copying and there exists a fine line, but I stand by my quote above as it holds true.  Yet I am not accusing warP of being a "copy".  I'm just trying to open some eyes.

The AR-15 has been copied to death by firearms manufacturers, it only serves to make the platform stronger (more popular).  Heck, I've seen 12ga built on the AR.  My point is there is nothing wrong with adopting the ergonomics and furniture for an airgun, especially when they are done right.  I highly doubt Eugene Stoner is rolling in his grave, more likely he's smiling like a cheshire cat.

I doubt the FXi is causing FX any loss of sleep. 

Tom

[StevenG]

What, do you mean that's NOT the newest FX production facility in the video? It would have explained the quality challenges they've had lately

LMBO :O AoA WHERE IS MY REPLACEMENT SCREW?

Seriously, you get what you pay for and sometime much more.  All manufactures know they are going to get knocked off eventually.  Look at what happened to Edgun.  Cloned by the East and West.

In the final analysis, quality and useful innovation prevail.


Tom

I'll add to that- form follows function as well.  Throw in some specs and design criteria, then see how many ideas end up looking alike.  I've seen it in everything from exercise equipment to tables saws, lawnmowers to cars, and certainlty in airguns and powderburners.  There's only so many ways you can throw some components together before you start having designs start looking the same.  Case in point- the Impact versus the Priest.  The Priest is more low-slung with a lower profile and has a side-bolt on the left side versus a sidelever on the right.  Sure they look alike to a point, much like most break-barrel springers look alike, most mid-size 4 door sedans look alike, and most radial arm saws look alike.

Yeah, every bottled bullpup is going to look darn similar.

Some people in the other thread basically claimed that made one the clone of the other, never mind that they have mechanical differences.

I bet they both have a valve opened by a mass hitting a poppet too!

[Bizill]

Yeah fellas, don't beat me up.  As I stated, I'm TOTALLY fine with the looks of the warP and in fact, LOVE the fact it looks AR-ish.  No need to defend the product, I was just giving an example of what oldpro is doing with regard to the Priest. 

Watching the posts in the OP in this thread I find myself wanting to see their machine shop setup.  More than mere hand tools used there, for sure.  I wonder if they have any cnc's or if it's all manual mills and lathes.  It's scary how easily and quickly a product can be copied or cloned.  Hard for manufacturers to bring something new to the market knowing it WILL be copied and ripped off.

[Bizill]

Of course I see no problem copying a product for your own use (so long as you've originally purchased it and not like you copy for yourself a loaned or bought and returned but copied product) , but the second that person or company begin to PROFIT from it is where a line is crossed.  The only thing a country can do to stop it is by stopping importation of said product.  Good luck with that though as not every customs official is savvy to what's a clone vs not.  But America, imo, didn't need to shoot itself in the leg by the likes of NAFTA.  It's a fact that it made it so much easier for American products to be copied/stolen.

ETA: underlined comment.

[45Bravo]

America is good at banning import of things.

We no longer can get
$200 norinco 1911's
$49 sks's &
$400 polytech m14's from china,

[dv8eod]

All this reminds me of the Trijicon vs China lawsuit, where China copied the ACOG and blatantly advertised it as "just as good as." Trijicon won the suit, but pretty much all that happened was a "Cease and Desist" order was issued and they stopped importation of the Chinese made ones. It's sad that things like reverse engineering and other forms of copying happen, especially from countries that are supposed to be "First World" and should have their own R&D capabilities," but the fact is it happens. Sometimes for the better, but usually for the worse.

[Privateer]

Some people make good money doing reverse engineering.

[Bizill]

America is good at banning import of things.

We no longer can get
$200 norinco 1911's
$49 sks's &
$400 polytech m14's from china,

But we can get Chinese made...EVERYTHING.

[45Bravo]

All this reminds me of the Trijicon vs China lawsuit, where China copied the ACOG and blatantly advertised it as "just as good as." Trijicon won the suit, but pretty much all that happened was a "Cease and Desist" order was issued and they stopped importation of the Chinese made ones. It's sad that things like reverse engineering and other forms of copying happen, especially from countries that are supposed to be "First World" and should have their own R&D capabilities," but the fact is it happens. Sometimes for the better, but usually for the worse.

I can say this, I have owned real eotech holosights, (they use a laser)
And knockoffs (eotech branding, but use an LED instead of a laser) the build quality was good, but not the same as eotech.

I have used real Trigicon acog's and the clones.
They can be broken down into red dots, and 3-4x models.
The dot sight ones only have the profile of a acog, but a red dot internals.

The 4x acog clone other than not having a tritium insert is a heck of a deal.
Of the 3 I have owned, The optics are nitrogen sealed, shock proof, etched glass reticle, and very clear.

Would I use a clone scope on a rifle going into a war zone, no.
But for a range toy, or a truck gun, it's 1/10 the price of a real one, and that buys a lot of ammo...

[Habanero69er]

Some people make good money doing reverse engineering.

The Russians & Chinese have been doing that for decades.

[StevenG]

Some people make good money doing reverse engineering.

The Russians & Chinese have been doing that for decades.

And for a great many Americans.
Until recently pretty much all software interoperability was based on reverse engineering. I have a friend that used to work for a company that did nuclear reactor inspections, a lot of customized stuff was needed and quite frequently they had to reverse engineer the only existing tool.

[oldpro]

Of course I see no problem copying a product for your own use (so long as you've originally purchased it and not like you copy for yourself a loaned or bought and returned but copied product) , but the second that person or company begin to PROFIT from it is where a line is crossed.  The only thing a country can do to stop it is by stopping importation of said product.  Good luck with that though as not every customs official is savvy to what's a clone vs not.  But America, imo, didn't need to shoot itself in the leg by the likes of NAFTA.  It's a fact that it made it so much easier for American products to be copied/stolen.

ETA: underlined comment.

This is and excellent statement above and Being copied is flattery really but when you cross that line and start selling that copy then thats where I personally have a problem and I dont mind saying so. Make copies for yourself and use it I think thats cool actually, of course These are all JUST MY OPINIONS and I mean no disrespect to anyone Im simply telling you how I feel.