Author Topic: entry level 12 ft/lb pcp (Read 3637 times))

Achilles_13 · « **on:** October 04, 2016, 10:01:13 AM »

Hi all

I would like to ask the members here some advice in buying my first pcp, not too hot shooting ( max 15 ft/lb in.22).
Things I would like : not too large or heavy ( think cz s200) and as quiet as can be (if necessary with an LDC/shroud)... I shoot in an urban environment with nosy neigbours. Oh, and being ok to fill with a pump would be awesome.

Distance of most shots would be around 25 yards

On my list right now are :

Air arms s200 (does anyone own this in 12ft/lb ?, how quiet can I get it with an ldc ?)
Walther Rotex R8 ( according to reviews great bang for buck, regulated, great accuracy and quiet with an ldc)
Brocock concept elite ( any owners who could comment on loudness ?)
Prod ( yes, they are more expensive than the FAC S200 out here, but I like the fact that it is supposed to be quiet)

FX Streamline ( not out as of yet, but I heard they are starting production in small batches quite soon and most gun traders here expect it to outshoot a Daystate huntsman accuracy wise)

right now the CZ s200 and the rotex r8 take my fancy.

any comments of owners or former owners of the rifles mentioned above would be most welcome, any suggestions as to other
rifles I should def. take a look at would be most appreciated.

Kind regards and good shooting !

Achilles

dcorvino · « **Reply #1 on:** October 04, 2016, 10:46:04 AM »

Hi
Take a look at the Maximus euro.
It is about 12 ft pounds. The rifle is light and can be fitted with an ldc.
The Maximus euro can be purchased for under 200 dollars and you can find a rifle and pump combo for about $300 to $ 350.
Hope this helps

Dave

Ribbonstone · « **Reply #2 on:** October 04, 2016, 06:41:18 PM »

HAve several PCP's I run at 12 foot pounds, although it's a better energy level for .177's than it is for .22's for most shooting....those heavy .22's are really kind of loafing along at the speeds needed to keep them at 12 foot pounds, but if you're good at range estimation/hold over can be useful.

AA s200 or 200T will need an LDC...have one of each, in .22 and .177....but at 12 foot pounds and low air use per shot, are quiet. Considerably quieter than a P-Rod (but that one comes with a shroud, so it's not really fair to compare an aftermarket LDC). U.S. versions are easily set (if you've a chronograph) to that power setting (and easily reset to higher or lower if you've the urge).

Disco/Maximus set for 12 foot pounds (and the Maximus Euro would come closest to that, but likely a little under....but boosting power a little is a lot easier than strangling one down) also needs an LDC. Accuracy can be quite good; enough that you'll see the point of PCP's, but there are more accurate rifles. Have run a Disco at 12 foot pounds....and have run a Challenger at 12...so it certainly can be done.

P-rod really isn't that quiet, even at 12 foot pounds. It's not a real advanced shroud system, and is a bit short on volume, so it's not as good at it's job as it could be. Can be made better at noise reduction. Haven't been thrilled with mine at 12 foot pounds, it seems to want to balance out (meaning the most "good" shots) at about 14-15 foot pounds...but a more restrictive transfer port and a few mods to get a faster valve opening/closing would likely do the trick.

Kind of interested in the Rotek, also needs an LDC, but not super thrilled about pump filling the bottle (esp. not filling it to max rated pressure of 232BAR). Considering the stock that comes with it, and the other changes, it's a competitive offering for the $. No experiece with one, but I'd try one if I were filling with a 4.5K bottle.

mobilemail · « **Reply #3 on:** October 04, 2016, 07:20:15 PM »

Edited- suggested a springer, then read the pcp qualifier.

CatbirdSHV · « **Reply #4 on:** October 04, 2016, 07:24:04 PM »

Quote from: Ribbonstone on October 04, 2016, 06:41:18 PM

P-rod really isn't that quiet, even at 12 foot pounds. It's not a real advanced shroud system, and is a bit short on volume, so it's not as good at it's job as it could be.

Check with Rocker1 for his custom shroud with baffles. It is about 4 inches longer than factory shroud and it makes my PRod (18fpe) extremely quiet. You do not hear the air crack at all, so the only sound you hear is the click/clink of the internals and the thump of the pellet impact.

Bizill · « **Reply #5 on:** October 04, 2016, 08:20:19 PM »

Quote from: CatbirdSHV on October 04, 2016, 07:24:04 PM

Quote from: Ribbonstone on October 04, 2016, 06:41:18 PM
P-rod really isn't that quiet, even at 12 foot pounds. It's not a real advanced shroud system, and is a bit short on volume, so it's not as good at it's job as it could be.
Check with Rocker1 for his custom shroud with baffles. It is about 4 inches longer than factory shroud and it makes my PRod (18fpe) extremely quiet. You do not hear the air crack at all, so the only sound you hear is the click/clink of the internals and the thump of the pellet impact.

I'll go so far as to say mine is pretty darn quite even dry firing!

sactargetshooter · « **Reply #6 on:** October 04, 2016, 11:53:12 PM »

I regret selling my S200 in .177. It shot at right about 13 FPE, and very quiet with an LDC. Just about any PCP at that energy level will need an LDC to be quiet. My suggestion is to get the S200 and never look back (and don't sell it like I did).

As far as LDCs are concerned, you can have Neil Clague custom make one. His LDCs are top tier and cost effective. The Weihrauch LDC is also very effective, but it is more expensive. I have not tried out LDCs from others like Rocker1, but members of this forum can probably tell you about the alternatives.

The bottom line is that with a good LDC, muzzle report can be reduced very significantly. It is the impact that will remain to be loud.

At the energy level of 13 to 15 FPE, you can go for either a .177 or .22. Both calibers are inexpensive to shoot. For pesting/hunting, a .22 is a better caliber, but the sound of impact is louder. A .177 is also effective with good shot placement, and to me the impact is not as loud.

Just keep in mind that if you live in an urban environment, the sound of impact (on rats, tree rats, tree branches, etc.) can easily be heard from 25 yards. The question is whether your neighbors can tell what it is.

The FX streamline is about $1000. If you are already consider that price range, there are many choices. I really like the Mutant Shorty. It can shoot at a max power of 28 FPE or dial it all the way down to 6 FPE. It is a bullpup, and a very short one at that.

Taso1000 · « **Reply #7 on:** October 05, 2016, 12:23:35 AM »

Achilles,

I have the T200. I am very impressed with it. Even though it's currently shooting at around 600 fps it can be adjusted to around 12 fpe I hear. I have not tried it yet. It is also cheaper than the S200. You could even sell the sights and recoup some of your money.

Even at the stock velocity of 540 fps it was not loud but it popped. My FWB 601 makes a similar pop when fired. I bought an ldc from TKO and the gun is mouse fart quiet.

It is light and feels compact in a good way. It's not too small or too big. It's just right.

Taso

Rallyshark · « **Reply #8 on:** October 05, 2016, 12:50:37 AM »

I like the idea of a Mutant shorty too. I think they are super cool guns, and I'd imagine it would be very quiet shooting at 12fpe. You also get the added benefit of a repeater and the ability to turn the power up if you plan on shooting elsewhere. There really are a ton of options out there though. There are plenty of guns that can be brought down to 12fpe with smaller reservoirs so hand pumping would be a cake walk. If you want the easiest pumping, I think the Maximus Euro would be the way to go, since it has a smaller reservoir and is meant to shoot at 2000psi and under. You certainly can't beat the price either.

sactargetshooter · « **Reply #9 on:** October 05, 2016, 02:03:28 AM »

Quote from: Rallyshark on October 05, 2016, 12:50:37 AM

I like the idea of a Mutant shorty too. I think they are super cool guns, and I'd imagine it would be very quiet shooting at 12fpe. You also get the added benefit of a repeater and the ability to turn the power up if you plan on shooting elsewhere. There really are a ton of options out there though. There are plenty of guns that can be brought down to 12fpe with smaller reservoirs so hand pumping would be a cake walk. If you want the easiest pumping, I think the Maximus Euro would be the way to go, since it has a smaller reservoir and is meant to shoot at 2000psi and under. You certainly can't beat the price either.

The Mutant is regulated at about 140 bars as per Motorhead, but will shoot down to 120 bars. I hand pump mine to 220 bars for a lot of shots despite the small cylinder volume. From 220 bars down to 150 bars, I can get 28 28 FPE (yes, coincidental!) shots. PCPs with short barrels are less efficient at high power levels, so getting 56 14 FPE shots from 220 bars to 150 bars seems realistic.

The trigger on the Mutant is very good, one of the best. It is very adjustable and basically leaves no room to improve other than adjusting the travel and weights to personal preferences.

My Mutant in stock form shoots like a well-tuned gun. Charge it with air and shoot. Oh, with the shroud extension (extending the OAL to 29"), muzzle report is very quiet even at 28 FPE. The problem is going to be the sound of the impact smack on target.

As for the price, the Maximus Euro is about 1/6 of that of the Mutant, leaving plenty of $$$ for upgrades (trigger and LDC). If the OP does not mind upgrading the gun along the way, the Maximus Euro seems like a cost effective option.

I also want to point out that with the S200, the fill pressure was about 160 bars to shoot at the 13 FPE level. That was one really sweet little rifle that I sold

.

Achilles_13 · « **Reply #10 on:** October 05, 2016, 04:10:07 AM »

Thank you all for the answers !

I just got an offer in on a s200 .22 multishot that was powertuned to about 18 ft lbs, about 210 m/s with jsb 15.89 gr. ( and it is still more expensive than for example the s200 hunter on pyramid air...) having a regulator put in will set me back about 160 usd.
The thing is that here in Europe the prices are way different. The new Powertuned S200 will cost me about 50 usd more than say a Disco with pump, the Prod, new and powertuned is only a 20 usd difference. The Maximus Euro is'nt available here yet.

The reason I want the .22 is just because I already have 2 springer Weihrauch rifles in .177 ( HW50s and hw97k)

I was looking into the lower ft-lbs just for noise reasons, but since you guys tell me they will need an LDC anyway.

I saw you guys saying that it is easier to powertune them up slightly than taking down the power on a FAC rifle ?

The brocock compatto .22 also looks really nice, but I would have to find out what the power levels are in FAC ( 3 levels of power adjustment).

I'm not buying yet, might even be a year before I eventually fall in love with one or the other, but I like getting informed

Thank you guys very much for the ideas, any others or opinions on the mentioned rifles by owners are always welcome !

Kind regards

Stijn

chiro972b · « **Reply #11 on:** October 05, 2016, 06:43:19 PM »

If I'm going to do 12 ftlb, I would only do it in .177. Just me, but a 12 foot 22 has a trajectory that is too loopy for me. In 177 you can still have a fairly flat trajectory. My brother in law is in England and they are limited to 12 ftlb and I shot his .22 when I was there and it was ok, but beyond 25 yards it is a really big drop off. Just something to consider.

Zebra · « **Reply #12 on:** October 05, 2016, 07:08:26 PM »

The Mutant Shorty is the best gun mentioned on this page by miles. It's very quiet, compact, accurate, efficient, well built and fun to use.

Do you want you need to get one, even if it means selling a family member. I sold two family members to get mine and I don't regret it at all!

Ribbonstone · « **Reply #13 on:** October 05, 2016, 07:10:08 PM »

If you are serious about it being 25 yards, then it really doesn't make much difference which caliber. I'd also have a preference (at least most of the time) for a .177, but if your shooting is really limited to 20-25 yards, a 12 foot pound .22 isn't much of a handicap.

A .22 would start out a 14.3gr. pellet at a pretty slow 615fps. WIth a 1.5" scope height, that would be "on" at 20 yards and .27" low at 25.
A .177 could start out an 8.4gr. pellet at 802fps. With the same 1.5" scope height, that would be "0n" at 20 yards and .03 low at 25.

Now that difference is certainly "something" but in real life that's one .22 pellet diameter difference.

sactargetshooter · « **Reply #14 on:** October 07, 2016, 12:58:13 PM »

A Mutant isn't exactly "entry level", but it may be the last gun (TM) that you'll buy

.

At 25 yards, you can adjust the muzzle energy down from the maximum of 28 FPE to 12 FPE (or less, depending on how much you actually need). At a lower energy level, the muzzle report AND impact sound are both reduced. The trajectory of a 14.35gr JSB Jumbo Express isn't bad out to 30 yards. I can tell my set up: 2.12" scope height, 640 fps muzzle velocity shooting 14.35gr. With this set up and a kill zone of 0.5" (diameter, not radius), the point-blank range is from 15 to 30 yards.

I agree with the assessment that .177 and .22 do not make much difference at 25 yards. .22 is more of a hunting caliber compared to .177. .177 is more of a field target match/plinking caliber. There is no hard standard. I sometimes use a .177 to hunt ground squirrels, and I am currently using the Mutant in .22 for field target matches.

To be fair, a Mutant is overkill at this distance with the energy needed for pesting and hunting small game. However, the advantage of a Mutant is that you can easily adjust the hammer tension to the full 25 to 28 FPE for shooting long range (easily out to 50 yards). The Shorty version is also easy to carry.

If you are considering this price range, the Mutant is competitive. Otherwise, a S200 is a more cost effective choice (but also with a CZ barrel!).

anti-squirrel · « **Reply #15 on:** October 07, 2016, 01:07:14 PM »

If it were my money, I'd probably look at the Brocock with a moderator. It is well south of $1k, is compact, and based on reading/videos, it doesn't bark, especially with a good LDC or moderator on the business end. There's one with a Huggett on AoA's Used Gun section selling under $500. In fact, after browsing the entire range of Brococks there, they are all marked down.

I'll add when everybody turns right, I usually turn left.

Achilles_13 · « **Reply #16 on:** October 08, 2016, 05:04:19 PM »

I really do like the mutant, but funds have taken a turn for the worst... it will remain in the "wants" section , does anyone have an opinion on the Prod ? I read one is to be lucky to get a decent shooter out of it ? Some shoot well and some don't ? Is it really that problematic or are those reviews of people that hope too much? Any owners or former owners, I'd love some info on them! ( backpack friendly, quick fill with pump and regulator available from HUMA. I'm not looking for match garde accuracy, a clean kill at 30 yards max in good conditions, not too much holdover and I'm a happy camper...

Sorry for all the questions, thank you all very much for helping me out!

Taso1000 · « **Reply #17 on:** October 08, 2016, 05:35:16 PM »

I had considered the 1720T when I was looking. I wanted a rifle though and converting is would have cost more than the T200. On the plus side of the Marauder pistol is that it's cheaper than the 1720P

http://www.crosman.com/fairway-friend

If you add a cheap accessory and the 25% off code AGNATION you can get it down to $283.51. I've attached a picture of a cart I just completed. I also think there is free shipping on Fridays? Someone else can confirm.

Taso

farmerjoe99 · « **Reply #18 on:** October 08, 2016, 06:48:18 PM »

I got a 1720T this summer and have to say I'm impressed!(so much so I've actually considered getting a P-rod)
Its very accurate has a pretty good trigger and is pretty quiet with its shrouded barrel.

Stock you get 40 good shots per fill at 9fpe or you can do a couple very simple and easy mods
and tune it up to 10-12 fpe for 25-30 shots per fill.
I'm in the middle of doing this myself and on my first try I'm getting 25 good shots at 11-12fpe.
And if you get crosman's plastic stock it makes for very nice lightweight carbine.

screwwork · « **Reply #19 on:** October 08, 2016, 07:31:07 PM »

A few posts about Prod's. Enjoy

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=115440.0
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=115587.0
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=115335.msg1107682#msg1107682

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entry level 12 ft/lb pcp

Author Topic: entry level 12 ft/lb pcp (Read 3637 times))