35 versus 50 yards.

[north country gal]

Great post going on What does long range real mean for a 177 air rifles, so check it out if you haven't already.

In that post, I made a comment that the jump from 35 yards to 50 yards is, indeed, a big one as far as maintaining the same MOA between the two distances and to do so requires excellent shooting conditions. Not really the same topic as to what is considered long range for a 177, so thought I would start a separate post.

Today was, in a word, crummy, as far as shooting conditions. Wind was at my back and quartering, 15 to 20 mph with some even higher gusts. Most folks with any sense would take a pass on distance work with such a wind, but, hey, the sun was out and temps in the 60s and, well, shooting is shooting. Beats not shooting.

For my test, I used one of our most consistent shooters, our Blue Laminate HW77K in 177. It wears a Bushnell Trophy 4-12x AO. This rig has, on an excellent day with no wind, done sub half inch, 50 yard groups for me with H&N FTTs in the 4.52mm head size.


Normally, I would play the wind on such a day, but I wanted to actually test the wind, so I made no attempt to wait for any calm. Pretty much load and shoot. Nor did I make any attempt to keep shots in the bullseye. All I wanted to test was group size in a strong wind.

35 yards
Shot five, five shot groups. The largest measured .85, but the smallest was an amazing .34", one raged hole. Probably a fluke, but the other three were all right about half inch. I was actually surprised to get such groups, given that I could see the bushes blowing in the wind around the target. Again, I made no effort to play the wind. Just load and shoot.

50 yards.
Actually shot seven groups, just to make sure I wasn't seeing things. The groups were that bad. My best group from this superb rifle was 1.2". Try as I might to break one inch, just couldn't get it done in that wind. Could get two in a row and, once, a nice three shot group, but with that wind, keeping five in a row to stay home was impossible. The rest of the groups were much worse, with two right at two inches. Remember, though, I was not playing the wind, just letting it do its damage.

Now, it may be that the way our range is situated makes the 50 yard station more exposed to the wind than the 35 yard station, but I don't think so, not with this wind. Our 50 yard station is no more exposed to this wind direction than our 35 yard station, but I would love to check it.

It's risky, of course, to draw conclusions from only one test, but based on today's results, the distance at which I can shoot half inch groups with my guns on my range, under strong winds from this direction is 35 yards. My little rule of thumb, then, is that 35 yards is a very air gun friendly shooting distance under just about any conditions. Feel free to use it, no charge.

[Roadworthy]

The information was interesting, Joanie, but the gun is drop dead gorgeous!!

[HectorMedina]

Joanie;

There is indeed more to those 15 additional yards than meets the eye.

Having shot hundreds, if not close to a thousand different airguns, my rule of thumb is that at 0.5 X the distance, the group size should be 0.4 what it was at full distance.
Of course you can use the rule to extrapolate, instead of interpolate, but IMHO, that is not as true as it would seem. So, for an average group size at 50 yards of around 1 3/4", at 35 yards the geometric progression would indicate to expect an average group size of around 7/8". Now, this is what is EXPECTED in perfectly calm conditions, level shooting, and all the favourable situation of a lab test. It is indicative of the rough weather that you and your gun were capable of exceeding by a wide margin the expectations.

But it also tells you that the distance has an impact that grows geometrically, not linearly. In other words, twice the distance does not mean twice as hard, it means 2½ times as hard (in perfect conditions). This geometrical proportion would say that for 50 yards it is 2X as hard than it is at 35 (1.95 times, but we will round it to 2X).

Why? well, the problem lies in that, for the most part, rifles do not shoot their pellets in a perfect circular motion. Pellets have "anomalies" in their flight, namely Precesion Nutation and Yaw, and that DECREASES substantially the ballistic coefficient because the pellet, as it oscillates in its travel, presents a much larger area. As the pellet slows down, it oscillates even more and decelerates faster again.

A "vicious circle" of sorts.

Now, some pellets are more susceptible to wind drift than others, yes the basic shape has a lot to do, but also how stable the gun shoots them has a very relevant bearing.

I would suggest you try the JSB's and the Sniper Medium pellets in your gun under windy conditions and see what happens.

Lastly, there is a lot to learn from the SHAPE of the groups. Are they still circular? Or are they straight lines left and right? Or are they diagonally elliptical? Or, none at all?
Every group shape tells us something.

Good shooting BTW!


Keep well and shoot straight!






Hector Medina

[OKHunter1]

Dang, the  cumulative knowledge here can be just plain awesome. Great info you two, and free Ta boot. Got to love it. I feel somehow smarter after reading expert post like these. Kudos.

[north country gal]

Hector, I was going to say that, really I was. Seriously, your depth of knowledge is just plain awesome.

Didn't do enough shooting to reliably put a number on things, but your data makes a world of sense.

The FTTs have been this gun's favorite, since day one, all the way out to 50 yards, but, then, I never tried shooting it at 50 yards with this kind of wind, until, today. Trying other pellets in such a wind should be a very interesting experiment. Will sure give it a try.

The groups at 35 yards were quite circular, much as I get in calmer conditions. The groups at 50, though, tended to be more squarish, with two or, in one case, three to one side of the square. Pretty obvious the wind was kicking them all over the place.

Thomas, after shooting the ProSport so much this week, was thinking the same thing about how beautiful the Blue 177 is, though in a different way.

And thanks, Kurt. Not so sure about that expert thing, but thanks.

[Airgun.Sniper]

 I shot all .177 cal out to 50 yards. They werent high end springers like yours either....

 I dont worry about the conditions because I cant change the condition, but what I can change is my scope calibrations and my shooting style by practicing more and more. Wind will push the pellet a little more though Ive seen Jerry take 2" skeet @ 100 yards with his TX200 and so did I. Never have I shot the gun before that time. I knew springers and could gauge the wind some what.
 
 Conditions arent always the same so I have to just go with guts and experience and take the shot.

[bubba zanetti]

First time I had to dope for wind at a FT Shoot was this past Sunday.

During sight in once I was shooting past 30-35 yards my pellets were hitting 2 inches or so to the right. I could see them curve like a curve ball. I could not figure out what was going on and thought I had 'scope cant' but was thinking I had eliminated that so whats the big deal here? It wasn't until the shooter beside me said "Man, that wind past 30 yards is killer" did I realize what the issue was LOL! Then I started using my side Mil-dots and was back in the game . He was shooting his TX200 and I was shooting the BAM-50. JSB 8.44 grain for him and JSB 10.34 grain for me. Hector brings up something interesting that I had not really thought about scientifically, but basically both our AG shoot in 800 fps range but our pellets were both pushed a few inches right. His a tad more, but I was intrigued that it was so similar and at the time thought "I wonder why that is?" Hector has given me more to think about! Lastly, it wasn't a heavy wind either.

On one of the last lanes it wasn't windy were we sat to shoot, but that breeze was back at 51 yards where the target was and that made for interesting shooting.

BZ

[Booger]

I shoot every weekend, and during the week when I feel I need a vacation. The wind can be a killer even at 25 yards, much less 50 or 60 yards. If my spread is left & right I know I am doing my part and just have to learn to deal with the wind that day. I shoot from inside a shed and it faces the east and most of the wind is coming from the north or south. It is cool to watch the pellet curve into the kill zone of a knock down target in 30 mph wind, and frustrating to watch the pellet miss. LOL

[lefteyeshot]

Now, you tell me!

[Technical Ted]

I feel a little better now after reading these... I did some pellet testing at 50 yards with my .177 ProSport yesterday with a variable wind and really couldn't determine a winner.... I guess I need to back up to 35 yards, determine a favorite, then work up from there (unless it's a very calm day).


Great info you guys!
Ted

[north country gal]

Good comments, folks.

Anyway you cut it, wind at 50 yards is a major player in the accuracy game. Doesn't have to be a strong wind, either. Had a day, a couple weeks, ago, when the wind was on the light side, under 10 mph, but it was one of those days with a lot of updrafts, the kind of day when the wind blows leaves and dirt into little swirls or mini twisters. Could even feel the updrafts while shooting the bench. Totally impossible to shoot a decent 50 yard group, no matter how I tried to play the wind.

[grimeszee]

Hey Jay I seem to remember some other guy using a 16 FPE XS46U .22 cal  breaking those 2" clay's at 100 yards also.
Practice Practice Practice...

[north country gal]

Same wind conditions, today, so I repeated the test, only this time with our new ProSport. Pretty much the same results, though the Prosport couldn't quite keep with the Blue HW97K in accuracy at 35 yards. Still, enough  5/8th to 3/4" groups to make shooting in that wind worthwhile. Also tried just about every pellet we have, but, once again, Crosman Premiers beat everything else. Also, 35 yards is plenty long enough of  distance to easily see differences in pellet preference.

[wahoowad]

Joani,

Is your HW97k stock? What is your pellet weight and velocity? Those are outstanding groups - I am impressed!

[Joe Brancato]

I am so happy to see this post. So many nubes get duped that 1" at 100 Yds typical out of an airgun. That is NOT typical. Achievable, yes, Typical, NO!

I feel bad when a guy is beating his head, because he is "only" getting a 2" group with significant wind conditions. 

Glad to see the sanity!

[OKHunter1]

+1 Joe.  With a right out of the box gun, and less than a tin downrange ta boot.

[grauhanen]

I am so happy to see this post. So many nubes get duped that 1" at 100 Yds typical out of an airgun. That is NOT typical. Achievable, yes, Typical, NO!

I feel bad when a guy is beating his head, because he is "only" getting a 2" group with significant wind conditions. 

Glad to see the sanity!

This is a very good observation.  Too often keyboard shooters talk of unbelievable groups with air rifles at 50 yards.  As Hector Medina points out, there is a "vicious circle" of factors that militate against consistent accuracy as distance increases.  It applies to PCP's and even more to springers.

[mista meener]

Hector, I was going to say that, really I was. Seriously, your depth of knowledge is just plain awesome.

Didn't do enough shooting to reliably put a number on things, but your data makes a world of sense.

The FTTs have been this gun's favorite, since day one, all the way out to 50 yards, but, then, I never tried shooting it at 50 yards with this kind of wind, until, today. Trying other pellets in such a wind should be a very interesting experiment. Will sure give it a try.

The groups at 35 yards were quite circular, much as I get in calmer conditions. The groups at 50, though, tended to be more squarish, with two or, in one case, three to one side of the square. Pretty obvious the wind was kicking them all over the place.

Thomas, after shooting the ProSport so much this week, was thinking the same thing about how beautiful the Blue 177 is, though in a different way.

And thanks, Kurt. Not so sure about that expert thing, but thanks.

   Big difference when you were shooting with the wind at your back then a crosswind but you know that. the crosswinds are real hard

[mista meener]

Hey Jay I seem to remember some other guy using a 16 FPE XS46U .22 cal  breaking those 2" clay's at 100 yards also.
Practice Practice Practice...

   Practice is only good with an accurate rifle. you can practice 1000 hours with an inaccurate gun and totally waste your time. I remember I was at my friends ranch he had a steel buffalo set at 1000 yds and had a beautiful Sharps 45/70 and the women  were there while we took a while to try to figure out the drop and adjust the iron sights. after 20 shots we were ringing it like a doorbell and the women took shots hitting the steel  and just like a woman said that was easy and you guys made a big deal out of it lol. when you have an accurate gun dialed in almost anyone can make hits with little practice

[Diggity95]

I am so happy to see this post. So many nubes get duped that 1" at 100 Yds typical out of an airgun. That is NOT typical. Achievable, yes, Typical, NO!

I feel bad when a guy is beating his head, because he is "only" getting a 2" group with significant wind conditions. 

Glad to see the sanity!

This is a very good observation.  Too often keyboard shooters talk of unbelievable groups with air rifles at 50 yards.  As Hector Medina points out, there is a "vicious circle" of factors that militate against consistent accuracy as distance increases.  It applies to PCP's and even more to springers.

This is a good point. The measure of "consistency" for me, is being able to put several shots under a dime at 50 yards. "Accuracy" is being able to pick up your gun and hit various sized targets at varying distances in varying conditions with a certain measure of success. Everything has to be right but I'm pretty confident I can 5 shots in a row under a dime at 50 yards with my best gun after sighting in. This is consistency though and is more a measure of the guns abilities than my own.

That being said, you'd think that with the same gun in the same conditions, I'd be around an inch at 100 yards. Not so, I've never once shot a 1" or less groups at 100 yards. Granted, I've practiced 100 much less than I have 50, but still, if I'm under 2" at 100 yards I'm pretty pleased with that.

Trying to convince myself that I should be able to put up 1" groups at 100 yards only leads to frustration and detracts from the fun. I've taken more to shooting at cans and larger spinners out at distances past 75 yards.