My Test Results with an SSG, and FFH (HDD) installed, vs. a Stock Marauder

[FuzzyGrub]

Question:  How does one tell if he has a Gen I or Gen II M-Rod?  I bought mine in Feb of 2013.

The model number on the breech will have XX64 if it is Gen II and the endcap is tapered like in the pictures above.  Gen I will have XX63 model number, and the endcap is squared off.   Also, Gen I has 3 breech mounting bolts to four on Gen II. 

[Dairyboy]

Also gen II have adjustable comb.

And I have a WAR SSG and believe it was totally worth the money. Yes maybe it's 1/4 worth the gun but your gaining a ton of shots, big noise reduction and big air consumption reduction and way simpler tuning also. To me it was well worth it for quality parts and second to none customer service that came with it with all the guess work done already. No brainer to me.

[Deckard1973]

Question:  How does one tell if he has a Gen I or Gen II M-Rod?  I bought mine in Feb of 2013.

The model number on the breech will have XX64 if it is Gen II and the endcap is tapered like in the pictures above.  Gen I will have XX63 model number, and the endcap is squared off.   Also, Gen I has 3 breech mounting bolts to four on Gen II.

Thank you!

[PakProtector]

  I thought about countersinking the striker but there isnt much room between the hammer face and the hole that comes down from the top Plus the hammer is super hard and really a bear to machine. The best bet would be to make a new hammer from scratch designed around the SSG but that would only make it more expensive.  A better way to generate more hammer strike and less spring tension is to cut most of the exposed valve stem off leaving 3-4 mm exposed.

ON a stock Mrod valve, you can take 2.5mm off the back of the valve too, in addition to another few mm off the valve stem. That will dramatically increase the effective hammer travel.
cheers,
Douglas

[rsterne]

At what point does the hammer start running into other things, like the end of the cocking slot, the bolt, etc.etc?....

Bob

[oldpro]

 It wont Bob . You can drive a flush hammer flush with rear of valve.

[MassGunman]

You lost me at "interpolate" , harder read than a Tom Clancy novel . But seriously , alot of great info . Thanks for taking the time to share your data .

[Joe Brancato]

No problem John I was just pointing it out Brother. Im surprised Joe didnt mention where he got both items. Down at bottom of page is pics of parts with set screws etc. visible Id go take pics but im setting in Doctors office LOL. http://wickedairrifles.com/store.html

Travis, My sincerest apology for not cleary stating that this is indeed a WAR SSG. The other designer is SteveNC.  I was up all night writing that article, immediately after shooting the shots, and then the same week I purchased TopGunAirGuns, and dealing with all that. I even missed credit the fact that one of the SSG shots was at 825 F/S, not 815, which technically changes the 20 F/S spread down. I reasoned that since it is an anomaly, I suggest we ignore it and stick with the numbers (basically smoothing out the curve).

Yes, Travis (and to be fair I need to mention Steve) make an awesome SSG, as can be seen when one looks at any of the data.  I can't see having a Marauder without one of these installed.

[Joe Brancato]

You lost me at "interpolate" , harder read than a Tom Clancy novel . But seriously , alot of great info . Thanks for taking the time to share your data .

Interpolate, basically to judge what a number should be that is between data points  ex.. you have 85, 90, 95, x, 105, 110.  One would interpolate x to be 100.

Extrapolate, basically to judge what a number should be that is outside  data points  ex.. you have 85, 90, 95, 100, 105, x.  One would extrapolate x to be 110.

[Joe Brancato]

Nice work Joe.
Looks like it was a fun project comparing the 2 devices. I wish I could have sent you over one of my springs to include in the testing.

It's interesting to me seeing good pictures of the devices and the output from both of them. It had me thinking, if I were to buy one, which one would I buy ?

So here comes some observations and comments:

SSG:
Prevents hammer preload on valve stem - (IMO - root cause for low efficiency above 1800 psi - "anything under 1800 psi would be considered severe air waisting hammer bounce" )
Smoother more consistent string - most likely because the spring guide is a smooth surface through and through.
Lower fps or fpe due to the spring guide stop at the top of the hammer - less hammer travel
Needs heavier spring to achieve same fps or fpe - due to hammer travel and in turn more cocking effort.
A little extra work to make adjustments.
Machined well and appears as if it would last the life of the gun.
Nearly 70-85 bucks.

FFH:
Prevents hammer preload on valve stem - (IMO - root cause for low efficiency above 1800 psi - "anything under 1800 psi would be considered severe air waisting hammer bounce" )
Inconsistent shot string - Most likely due to spring and guide washer rubbing hard on threads - This could really cause a problem in the hammer chamber with metal fines.
Higher FPS or FPE due to spring guide stop at the top of the hammer - more hammer travel.
Can use a lighter spring to achieve same fps or fpe - due to hammer travel and less cocking effort.
Similar adjustments as stock - maybe a little more work but not repeatable because nothing holds the spring guide in place.
Off the shelf parts at your local hardware store - will not last the life of the gun.
35 bucks I think.

With all that said, I would go with the SSG from Travis (WAR) in my gun. Just for the robust and consistent device. Although, "and you know all know it's coming" 70 to 85 bucks is 1/4 the  price of the gun. Not cool but I can really understand why. Making the parts are costly.

The only recommendation I would make about the the SSG from Travis (WAR) would be to counter sink the head of the SSG spring guide into the face of the hammer to allow for more travel which in turn would allow for a higher FPS/FPE with a lower spring force/cocking effort.

I will address all questions and comments in a few days. I am at this moment traveling with my son for a class trip for school (going to Sutters Mill & Fort, Capital,  Capitol (didn't know that BOTH were pertinent to law, thought only one was). Will be back this weekend, can respond. I'm going dark on the forums for a couple of days, not hiding, just don't have access while we are traveling.

It was an interesting test, but after about 500 or so pellets, I would have literally paid my helper to finish it for me if he was around on the weekends.

Cheers all.

[Deckard1973]

Ok.
What am I doing wrong?
I got my HDD from WAR yesterday.  Installed it.  I left the end cap hex screw in the same position as it was shipped.  Same with the spring guide rod lock nut.  Installed the end cap hex screw was pushing up against the valve pin (for lack of better words) and all the air I was pumping in, came right out of the transfer port.  So, I unscrewed the end cap hex screw out until the air stopped leaking out through the transfer port. 
Reassembled the M-Rod, and I shot three 10 shot strings from a 3000PSI fill (per the Benji hand pump gage) using JSB 18.13grn pellets:
1)
864.6
834.7
838.6
830.2
827.5
828.0
821.0
800.7
830.5
807.6
End PSI: 2500 (per the M-Rod gage)

2)
824.2
821.0
810.1
810.9
792.9
799.1
794.4
781.7
773.2
792.6
End PSI:  2200

3)
768.2
757.3
764.9
756.0
750.4
736.5
736.3
732.7
726.1
643.5
End PSI:  1900

IIRC, with the stock hammer after 30 shots, my end PSI was at 2000. 

[Deckard1973]

Is it supposed to be this far out?
And what is the screw on the end cap for?

[oldpro]

 No it shouldnt be that far out and the set screw on the side is to stop the end gap adjuster from moving after tuning.

[sr1sws]

I'll probably demonstrate my complete lack of understanding of the dynamics involved:  would the SSG or FFH benefit a regulated Marauder?

Thanks!
Steve

[SuburbanMe]

wouldn't it just be better to buy a regulator and install it?

[Joe Brancato]

wouldn't it just be better to buy a regulator and install it?

No,. totally different ideas and issues.

The SSG and FFH control hammer bounce. Hammer bounce continues to pump air out the valve AFTER the first hit from the hammer sends out the pellet. (subsequent hammer bouncing just makes more noise and wastes air).

A reg just keeps the system at the proper pressure. It doesn't make the gun more air efficient.
With the SSG, I got 2.46 times more shots out of a Great White than without the SSG due to greater number of shots per Marauder fill, and less air needed to fill the Marauder for each fill.

[Dairyboy]

I'll probably demonstrate my complete lack of understanding of the dynamics involved:  would the SSG or FFH benefit a regulated Marauder?

Thanks!
Steve

Yes because even though it's regulated it still will have hammer bounce so you can get even more shots and will be quieter.

[ztirffritz]

Who makes the SSG that AoA is selling?  They don't credit Bob at all and aren't calling it an SSG but looks like basically the same idea.

http://www.airgunsofarizona.com/CustomParts.htm#MrodFFH

[sr1sws]

I'll probably demonstrate my complete lack of understanding of the dynamics involved:  would the SSG or FFH benefit a regulated Marauder?

Thanks!
Steve

Yes because even though it's regulated it still will have hammer bounce so you can get even more shots and will be quieter.

Great, thanks!

[Joe Brancato]

Who makes the SSG that AoA is selling?  They don't credit Bob at all and aren't calling it an SSG but looks like basically the same idea.

http://www.airgunsofarizona.com/CustomParts.htm#MrodFFH

The "FFH"  offered by that vendor is made by SteveNC .  A later comment by someone in this thread states that SteveNC does credit Mr. Sterne in a number of his posts.

If you look at the pictures of the FFH I tested and the SSG I tested, you will note the parts in each kit look entirely different.

As a foonote, I got an email stating that particular vendor also offering them wanted to have SteveNC drop me as a dealer for that item, as they wanted to be exclusive for that item. The offer was refused by SteveNC and I will offer it separately or installed when the Maruader is purchased.

The SSG was made by Travis.  Travis credits Mr. Sterne.
I will offer the SSG separately or installed when the Maruader is purchased.