I want advice on a piston or springer for hunting.

[John Woodskills]

I'm very grateful for your information.  My head is spinning with the amount of concern and time each of you are putting into my question.   

I am humbled.

I have heard the pros of all three calibers and the cons as well. I can only imagine the hours spent for each of you to have made these decisions.   For myself I am leaning towards a .25 for a short range hunter and am really torn on the .22 vrs .177 for plinking and hunting for my sons.

I am very very thankful for your input. John.

Sounds like you really want that .25 cal.  Just keep a good supply of pellets on hand.   You don't have to have a Magnum to make a close range hunting gun. Heck, you could stretch it on out to 40 or 50 yards  I hunted growing up with a .22 cal shooting around 600 fps. Perfectly doable. The Hatsan 95 Rick tested here was putting light .25's over 600 fps. 

Sometimes we get caught up in over thinking things     I'll make it simple.

1. Watch this video on the Hatsan 95 Vortex.

2. Go to amazon and get the Hatsan Mod 95 Vortex .25 for 172.00 shipped.
    Or At Pyramyd Air for 179.00 with the 10% off and free shipping code. https://www.pyramydair.com/product/hatsan-95-air-rifle-combo-vortex-gas-spring?m=3411

   Note: You can get it for 179.00 at Pyramyd Air with the code and free shipping. Get the 10 for $10.00 if you want them to shoot it over the chrony. Adds a day or so to delivery. Pyramyd is most likely better   
   to deal with if you did have a problem with your airgun.

3. Get some H&N Field Target Trophy .25 Cal, 20.06 Grains pellets. Amazon or Pyramyd Air. Note: You can get it for 179.00 at Pyramyd Air with the code and free shipping. Get the 10 for $10.00 if you want them to shoot it over the chrony. Adds a day or so to delivery. Pyramyd is most likely better to deal with if you did have a problem with your airgun.
    Also pick up some Hatsan Vortex Supreme PCP .25 Pellets 19.91 grains from Amazon. I would not go over 24 grains.

4. Now the hard part, Waiting on the UPS truck.

5. Enjoy

   

I so love to see the brown truck to pull up in the yard.

[UCChris]

I can see that you are pretty set on the .25 caliber. As someone who has been around the block with quite a few springers, I'd strongly recommend against it. Get something docile in .177, maybe .22

People way overestimate the power that is needed for ethical hunting. 99% of airgun game can be hunted extremely effectively with 12 fpe airguns.

My current hunting gun? A Beeman R7 putting out 6.83 fpe. But it is laser accurate. I can shoot the gonads off of a fly out to 40 yards. It'll hunt everything up to a rabbit in size at that range.

Precison>power when in comes to airguns.

[seitg74]

I can see that you are pretty set on the .25 caliber. As someone who has been around the block with quite a few springers, I'd strongly recommend against it. Get something docile in .177, maybe .22

People way overestimate the power that is needed for ethical hunting. 99% of airgun game can be hunted extremely effectively with 12 fpe airguns.

Exactly.  We all tend to get hypnotized by the .25 caliber.  For pigeons, rabbits, squirrels, and plinking?  The .25 you have to order and cost about the same as my 22 lr ammo.  I don't like wasting it on paper or cans usually.  It is nice to run down to the store and get a can of cheap stuff and not worry about not ordering.  A crosman nitro .22 will not disappoint for your first break barrel.  Mine was a Benjamin Trail NP and after a long break in I love that gun.  I don't know why so many people diss the .177?  For your purposes it would be ideal.  Have lots of tins laying around and the kids can use it in their Daisy 880s or Flying Dragon XS 12s.  Want a bigger hole?  Look what a fire tip gamo can expand to or a crow magnum!  Good luck on your decision.  Don't over think as you are losing out on trigger time.  Get in the game!  T

[Josan]

To be honest, those things on the end of spring or piston guns are for looks and some make a nice handle.  I can't tell the difference.

+1! Agree 100%

Ed

There are several advantages: optics, better grip when cocking, protection of blueing, being able to use the whole barrel length for leverage when cocking. I don't expect it to improve accuracy. In fact i'm keen on seeing no accuray decrease if i shoot the gun with the muzzle brake on.

I sometimes shoot just a few pellets and with the delrin muzzle brake on my HW30S and Diana 280 i don't need to wipe down the barrel with Ballistol each time. Also the sharp dovetail edge of the removed front sight doesn't cut into your hand.

[Charles Outdoors]

Yep. .25 cal pellets are 8.99 for 200 ct on the low side, Average closer to 15.00.

You can get cheap .177's for 1.99 for 250 count for just plinking and decent pellets for around 7.00 for 500.

.22 cal is just a little more than .177.

[Methuselah]

Well, last ah, nay-saying (?) of the .25 calibre's, it was late, long day, and I was almost lights out...

Just going to elaborate a little, as .25 is a fine calibre for hunting and has its place to be sure.  It's just that first thing you notice with that calibre and springers or gas rams is that people that post groups seem to mostly post larger spreads.  No - not everyone, but MOST.  Of those, a higher percentage will "settle" for a larger group with them.  Some give excuses, lower expectations, poorer eyesight, open sights (sometimes because a magnum springer will eventually kill almost any scope), but there are a few guys on the forum that can shoot better than one inch groups with them at 50 yards, if memory serves.

It's just that the majority who get these magnum springers aren't hunting with them past 15 to 25 yards.  They are a lot more recoil, hold sensitive, heavy, etc. and that makes them a bugger to learn and harder to shoot great groups with than guns in the 12 to 15 FPE range.  Not only that, but while you're learning to see if you can, you are paying 5 cents a round or more (ten for Polymags) vs. what, around a penny each for .177's?

Then there's the choices on who makes them.  There are fewer manufacturers making these .25 cal guns in spring/gas ram.  The bargain priced and best value for the buck tends to point mostly to Hatsan.  They have some quality control issues and, well, parts availability is also something to consider.

I'm going to cut it short here as the points can be beat to death and it sounded like you had made up your mind anyway - but I've got a Hatsan 125 (vortex) in .25 cal. and after a year now I still don't even have a clue if the barrel is good on it because I haven't been able to get it to group due to various issues I'm still (too patently) working through.  Long story to be sure and the last of it obviously my procrastinating while debating if I wanted to break the warranty but point is, these issues just plain come up less often in .177 and even .22 cal. guns.

We're here for ya though, whatever you decide if you have any issues just holler and lots of folks here will be glad to help out all we can 

[Charles Outdoors]

Well, last ah, nay-saying (?) of the .25 calibre's, it was late, long day, and I was almost lights out...

Just going to elaborate a little, as .25 is a fine calibre for hunting and has its place to be sure.  It's just that first thing you notice with that calibre and springers or gas rams is that people that post groups seem to mostly post larger spreads.  No - not everyone, but MOST.  Of those, a higher percentage will "settle" for a larger group with them.  Some give excuses, lower expectations, poorer eyesight, open sights (sometimes because a magnum springer will eventually kill almost any scope), but there are a few guys on the forum that can shoot better than one inch groups with them at 50 yards, if memory serves.

It's just that the majority who get these magnum springers aren't hunting with them past 15 to 25 yards.  They are a lot more recoil, hold sensitive, heavy, etc. and that makes them a bugger to learn and harder to shoot great groups with than guns in the 12 to 15 FPE range.  Not only that, but while you're learning to see if you can, you are paying 5 cents a round or more (ten for Polymags) vs. what, around a penny each for .177's?

Then there's the choices on who makes them.  There are fewer manufacturers making these .25 cal guns in spring/gas ram.  The bargain priced and best value for the buck tends to point mostly to Hatsan.  They have some quality control issues and, well, parts availability is also something to consider.

I'm going to cut it short here as the points can be beat to death and it sounded like you had made up your mind anyway - but I've got a Hatsan 125 (vortex) in .25 cal. and after a year now I still don't even have a clue if the barrel is good on it because I haven't been able to get it to group due to various issues I'm still (too patently) working through.  Long story to be sure and the last of it obviously my procrastinating while debating if I wanted to break the warranty but point is, these issues just plain come up less often in .177 and even .22 cal. guns.

We're here for ya though, whatever you decide if you have any issues just holler and lots of folks here will be glad to help out all we can 

The Hatsan 95 will spit 19 grain .25's at around 630 fps. It's not a power house which makes it easier to shoot. Looks very accurate from Rick's review in the video above.  Not what I would prefer, but if you really wanted a .25 for that extra pop sound when shooting a pigeon it would be decent. 

Myself, if I was getting a springer in the  $200.00 range for small game and target shooting it would be a Walther Terrus in .177. Awesome built German springer that is very forgiving to shoot, not so hold sensitive, and very accurate. Hard to beat this Airgun for $204.00 at Amazon for the Composite stock. $240ish for wood stock.   

[Methuselah]

The Hatsan 95 will spit 19 grain .25's at around 630 fps. It's not a power house which makes it easier to shoot. Looks very accurate from Rick's review in the video above.  Not what I would prefer, but if you really wanted a .25 for that extra pop sound when shooting a pigeon it would be decent. 

Yup, the 95's are the in-betweeners to be sure.  I am reluctant to recommend them in gas ram lately due to a recent increase in QC related postings on them.  Regular pricing might have been on-budget (I don't recall), but they can be had on sale/special, sometimes with a spring.  IMHO the spring version is preferable.

You are 100% correct, these 95's can be very accurate.  Still more $$$ for .25 ammo...

[John Woodskills]

The Hatsan 95 will spit 19 grain .25's at around 630 fps. It's not a power house which makes it easier to shoot. Looks very accurate from Rick's review in the video above.  Not what I would prefer, but if you really wanted a .25 for that extra pop sound when shooting a pigeon it would be decent. 

Yup, the 95's are the in-betweeners to be sure.  I am reluctant to recommend them in gas ram lately due to a recent increase in QC related postings on them.  Regular pricing might have been on-budget (I don't recall), but they can be had on sale/special, sometimes with a spring.  IMHO the spring version is preferable.

You are 100% correct, these 95's can be very accurate.  Still more $$$ for .25 ammo...

Methuselah, why do you prefer the spring over the piston? I was going for the piston because of they are supposed to be quieter and are supposed to not be affected by long term being cocked.

Are these not real concerns?

[Nomadic Pirate]

Nitro Piston, open sights and now not set in a particular caliber...

this is where I would go





I had several Crosman Nitro pistons in the past and have a .177 Titan right now that has the same powerplant as this one and it has plenty power and accuracy for hunting in your required situations.

[mista meener]

Nitro Piston, open sights and now not set in a particular caliber...

this is where I would go





I had several Crosman Nitro pistons in the past and have a .177 Titan right now that has the same powerplant as this one and it has plenty power and accuracy for hunting in your required situations.

I had that AR look a like and you can forget the open sites. it has a shroud around the barrel only glued and after 30 shots it rotates and can be taken off. sent 3 back all the same sent the last one to crosman with $75 and they sent me a 22 discovery. isn't it something where most guys want a canon to start with even firearms. you are one of the few that need a thumper

[seitg74]

sweet deals over at Pyramd.  Trail NP2 with up graded scope on sale with 10% off and free shipping.  Crosman Shockwave NP .22 or .177 $99 with $10 rebate!  I have to stop searching as I will buy another gun that I don't need. 

[Methuselah]

The Hatsan 95 will spit 19 grain .25's at around 630 fps. It's not a power house which makes it easier to shoot. Looks very accurate from Rick's review in the video above.  Not what I would prefer, but if you really wanted a .25 for that extra pop sound when shooting a pigeon it would be decent. 

Yup, the 95's are the in-betweeners to be sure.  I am reluctant to recommend them in gas ram lately due to a recent increase in QC related postings on them.  Regular pricing might have been on-budget (I don't recall), but they can be had on sale/special, sometimes with a spring.  IMHO the spring version is preferable.

You are 100% correct, these 95's can be very accurate.  Still more $$$ for .25 ammo...

Methuselah, why do you prefer the spring over the piston? I was going for the piston because of they are supposed to be quieter and are supposed to not be affected by long term being cocked.

Are these not real concerns?

True, probably less concern leaving a gas piston cocked but if buying Hatsan's they are drilling a hole through the receiver after manufacture to facilitate charging the ram.

On those where that hole doesn't line up they hit with a reamer and all the shavings left in the gun from that will damage the seal.

A few have also reported failed rams, and if you ever have to replace a ram or spring the spring is a LOT cheaper...

Just my .02 and personal preference - I'm sure most folks getting the 95's are perfectly happy with them.  The Hatsan's are a lot of gun for the $$$ but QC can be hit or miss.

[mobilehomer]

From Methusalah - A few have also reported failed rams, and if you ever have to replace a ram or spring the spring is a LOT cheaper..


The ram for the NP2 is $8.00, you can't get much cheaper than that. Also much easier to replace.

[Nomadic Pirate]

Yep, rather replace a Gas Ram than a spring anyday.

[Methuselah]

From Methusalah - A few have also reported failed rams, and if you ever have to replace a ram or spring the spring is a LOT cheaper..


The ram for the NP2 is $8.00, you can't get much cheaper than that. Also much easier to replace.

Aren't those crosman?  I hear most have, ah, "lacking" triggers- no?  Anyway, I was speaking of the Hatsan parts cost.  Do you put NP2 rams in the Hatsan's?  Would de interested in that for sure - are they a straight drop-in mod, and do they perform equally?

Thanks!

[Nomadic Pirate]

https://www.pyramydair.com/product/benjamin-titan-gp-nitro-piston-air-rifle?m=2603

149.00 with scope,...cheap enough to have some money left to upgrade scope later, I have this gun in .177 and really like it, I had the Crosman Nitro Venom in .22 ( same gun ) and preferred that one than the Diana 34 in .22 I had

[Charles Outdoors]

Nitro Piston, open sights and now not set in a particular caliber...

this is where I would go





I had several Crosman Nitro pistons in the past and have a .177 Titan right now that has the same powerplant as this one and it has plenty power and accuracy for hunting in your required situations.

I had that AR look a like and you can forget the open sites. it has a shroud around the barrel only glued and after 30 shots it rotates and can be taken off. sent 3 back all the same sent the last one to crosman with $75 and they sent me a 22 discovery. isn't it something where most guys want a canon to start with even firearms. you are one of the few that need a thumper

Was out shooting my MRT77 today with open sites and was getting some nice groups at about 12 yards. Never had a problem with the shroud coming loose and have at least a 1000 rounds through it now. I like it. Trigger pull is long and it's hold sensitive.

[Charles Outdoors]

The Hatsan 95 will spit 19 grain .25's at around 630 fps. It's not a power house which makes it easier to shoot. Looks very accurate from Rick's review in the video above.  Not what I would prefer, but if you really wanted a .25 for that extra pop sound when shooting a pigeon it would be decent. 

Yup, the 95's are the in-betweeners to be sure.  I am reluctant to recommend them in gas ram lately due to a recent increase in QC related postings on them.  Regular pricing might have been on-budget (I don't recall), but they can be had on sale/special, sometimes with a spring.  IMHO the spring version is preferable.

You are 100% correct, these 95's can be very accurate.  Still more $$$ for .25 ammo...

Methuselah, why do you prefer the spring over the piston? I was going for the piston because of they are supposed to be quieter and are supposed to not be affected by long term being cocked.

Are these not real concerns?

The gas piston is nice because it shoots like a springer with a tune kit installed. Smooth and no Twang.  I have mixed feeling about the gas piston. I am always worried it will leak down and some do.  Springs do break also I guess, but seem a little more reliable, or at least I trust them more because gas rams have not proven themselves to me totally. As far as leaving it cocked. I treat both Spring and ram the same. I cock them and go hunting. I don't worry about leaving them cocked for 4-5 hours. I don't have a reason to leave one cocked all day or night. To me the trade off is a nice smooth shot cycle in a cheap gun for the possibility I might have to replace a gas ram more often than a spring.   

[SteveP-52]

From Methusalah - A few have also reported failed rams, and if you ever have to replace a ram or spring the spring is a LOT cheaper..

The ram for the NP2 is $8.00, you can't get much cheaper than that. Also much easier to replace.

Aren't those crosman?  I hear most have, ah, "lacking" triggers- no?  Anyway, I was speaking of the Hatsan parts cost.  Do you put NP2 rams in the Hatsan's?  Would de interested in that for sure - are they a straight drop-in mod, and do they perform equally?

Thanks!

Talk to Tyler at PA, as far as I know, they still do gas ram upgrades using the Crosman gas rams. As far as triggers, I'm pretty sure one of the Charlie triggers fits the NP rifles, GRT III I think. Also don't remember which one but one of the Benjamins? has a .25 caliber option and better parts availability...still leaves pellets but order ahead and any number of places online sell them.
My original recommendation of the Edge Vortex .25 was made for several reasons: John's original thoughts were a short range hunting rifle with a gas ram. Owning both the Hatsan 95 Vortex .25 and the Edge Vortex .25 I can compare them hands on. Both have the Vortex piston and the same power tested with a chrony. My personal view of short range hunting is anything inside 35 yards and at that distance they're both great rifles.
The Edge weighs in about 6 1/2 pounds and with a scope, about 7 1/2. The 95 unscoped is 7 1/2 pounds, add one and it's closer to 9 depending on how big a scope you use. No, the Edge doesn't have a Quattro trigger but the one it does have can be made better with a .25 cent screw from the hardware store. The hollow stock can also be filled any number of ways without adding more than a few ounces of weight to reduce the hollow sound when you shoot. Both of those are very minor drawbacks to a lightweight, hard hitting, accurate rifle. Neither of them has what I'd call serious recoil either and they recoil just about the same even with the 95 having that SAS system in it.
Yes again, .25 caliber pellets aren't readily available but personally, I don't mind ordering mine especially when I can buy 3 and get the 4th tin free and I can mix and match the pellets I know my rifles shoot well.
Last but not least and anyone can read this on the forum: Yes, Hatsan has QC issues...then again, so does pretty much every rifle maker out there. Pick any Gate you want and someone in one of them has a brand new rifle they have some kind of issue with regardless of price point they paid for it from a $100 Hatsan to top of the line $800-$1000 springers. There have been several replies in this thread alone on issues with rifles and how the different companies dealt with them so is it possible to get a lemon? Definitely and the stories are here for everyone to read.
John, once again, Welcome to the GTA and again, good luck making your final decision...and my apologies for adding to the head spinning.