Author Topic: AF Condor Tophat O-Ring? (Read 6582 times))

Bo3b · « **on:** February 02, 2016, 09:32:41 AM »

Reading quite a few posts about the benefit of an O-Ring on an AF Tophat but AFAIK not much regarding setup specifics.

What O-Ring material is best in terms of elasticity and durability? Inside diameter? Is there a particular proven performance brand/item?

Also wondering if Tophat itself needs some sort of "adjustment" for use with O-Ring?

Thanks,
Bob

Tims229 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 02, 2016, 09:51:00 AM »

If you do adjust the top hat, make sure you thread lock the grub screws after you get it where you want it. Also, don't torque them down too much or you'll dent the inside. In all actuality, it really depends what you want out of your rifle on size of oring. The thicker it is, the less air will be let out each shot, increasing shot count. Decreasing velocity. If you have a chrono this helps you know where you are. Lots of knowledgeable guys on here that can help you more than I can though.

454 Big Block Chevy · « **Reply #2 on:** February 02, 2016, 11:09:56 AM »

I have found. setting your top hat with a US quarter is about as perfect a setup as you can get. take the tank off the gun. very carefully loosed each grub screw ONLY one half turn. if the top hat doesn't s pin, go another 1/4 turn. but remember exactly what you turned the screws. spin the top hat IN until you can JUST slide a quarter in and out, with very slight resistance. place a drop of loctite on the grub screws and snug the grub screws the 1/2 or 3/4 turn you loosed them. you COULD remove the grub screw completely to loctite it. but be very careful. the stinking top hat is THE MOST sensitive part on the airgun. you can and will crush the inner sleeve of the top hat. i have done it. a few times. luckily top hats are cheap through talon tunes. a US quarter is a .070-.071 inch adjustment. perfect. a slightly worn quarter is what i would use, just so that the ridge on the edge is flattened down a little bit, giving you a smaller gap. not that it probably matters. but i have found, with a proper top hat gap, you will use less air and get more consistency. the O ring mod is great too but thats on a stock open top hat setting. what the O ring does is soften the hammer strike. and prevent Over opening of the valve. If you adjust the top hat down, you don't need the o ring. you can further adjust your rifles performance by opening or closing the top hat adjustment (in and out). but a us quarter gap is a good solid proven method.

Onebaddj · « **Reply #3 on:** February 02, 2016, 12:00:23 PM »

Ive never adjusted the stock top hat because mine split so i replaced it with a talotunes top hat which has inserts to adjust it.

For the washer/oring under the tophat i used nylon washers i got with my aluminium shed. I use a drill bit to get them to 1/4 inch inside diameter then sand them to the same diameter as the base of the tophat. Then sand to thickness needed to get the performance i want. About as close to a regulator set up as you can get with out one in my opinion and for less than a dollar.

Hope that helps a little.

454 Big Block Chevy · « **Reply #4 on:** February 02, 2016, 12:11:03 PM »

you can also buy washers from talon tunes, and sand them to the thickness you want. same principle. of course my condor is .25 caliber and i shoot wide open. my next condor is going to be a .22 condor SS, probably in RED. and i will be using the talon tunes top hat and restrictors. can't wait!

Bo3b · « **Reply #5 on:** February 03, 2016, 09:01:14 AM »

Thanks to all for the replies!

And I apologize, but I'm still a little confused - As I look at the rifle, there is a gap from Tophat to tank side brass surface. I understand that this gap distance is "plunged" via Hammer strike which opens the tank valve. And I realize that gap can be adjusted closer/further to tank/valve for air amount change to shot.

Now, looking to quiet shots, I want to add O-Ring, placed tank side below Tophat, which decreases any prior set gap.

Does the Tophat need to be readjusted to recreate the previous setup gap - Which is now O-Ring to tank side edge? From what I gather, standard factory set gap is somewhere around 0.090 inches. Does allowance need to be made for the O-Ring compression travel?

Also seems to me that O-Ring would get considerable pounding from the repeated fire strikes which could cause deformation wear and related gap change and/or actually tear completely. What O-Ring material type is recommended for best compromise of durability and softer impact noise reduction?

Bob

Gear_Junkie · « **Reply #6 on:** February 03, 2016, 12:57:11 PM »

Quote from: Bo3b on February 03, 2016, 09:01:14 AM

Thanks to all for the replies!

And I apologize, but I'm still a little confused - As I look at the rifle, there is a gap from Tophat to tank side brass surface. I understand that this gap distance is "plunged" via Hammer strike which opens the tank valve. And I realize that gap can be adjusted closer/further to tank/valve for air amount change to shot.

Now, looking to quiet shots, I want to add O-Ring, placed tank side below Tophat, which decreases any prior set gap.

Does the Tophat need to be readjusted to recreate the previous setup gap - Which is now O-Ring to tank side edge? From what I gather, standard factory set gap is somewhere around 0.090 inches. Does allowance need to be made for the O-Ring compression travel?

[No - the installation of the o-ring takes up space in this gap. I used a rubber o-ring, which took up about half of this gap.]

Also seems to me that O-Ring would get considerable pounding from the repeated fire strikes which could cause deformation wear and related gap change and/or actually tear completely. What O-Ring material type is recommended for best compromise of durability and softer impact noise reduction?

[I used a rubber o-ring. After several hundred shots, there is zero signs of wear. Also, I like the fact that it's rubber and cushions the hammer blow a bit.]

Bob

See above for answers to your questions. For me, the installation of the rubber o-ring didn't decrease the speed at all. It did increase my shot count significantly. Until AF corrects the problem of too strong a spring, the o-ring mod seems like a cheap and necessary upgrade.

Bo3b · « **Reply #7 on:** February 04, 2016, 07:44:29 AM »

Quote from: Gear_Junkie on February 03, 2016, 12:57:11 PM

Quote from: Bo3b on February 03, 2016, 09:01:14 AM

Does the Tophat need to be readjusted to recreate the previous setup gap - Which is now O-Ring to tank side edge? From what I gather, standard factory set gap is somewhere around 0.090 inches. Does allowance need to be made for the O-Ring compression travel?

[No - the installation of the o-ring takes up space in this gap. I used a rubber o-ring, which took up about half of this gap.]

For me, the installation of the rubber o-ring didn't decrease the speed at all. It did increase my shot count significantly.

So, if the O-Ring took up half the Tophat gap and you did not adjust the Tophat to compensate for O=Ring thickness then it travels a shorter distance. And therefore, in theory, opens the Tank valve for a shorter time releasing less air per shot. Right? If so, seems a little strange, to me at least, that your velocity did not decrease but shot count did, especially if significant.

I guess this suggests that before the O-Ring addition considerable air was wasted per shot. Makes me wonder abit about the TT Tophat which does not allow travel adjustment but simply restricts air flow to pellet - This also seems like a solution that might waste air...

Thanks for the info - Adding an O-Ring sure seems like a "mod" to try. Just need to find a good product, fit.

Bob

Prouzy · « **Reply #8 on:** February 04, 2016, 08:10:35 AM »

Quote from: Bo3b on February 04, 2016, 07:44:29 AM

So, if the O-Ring took up half the Tophat gap and you did not adjust the Tophat to compensate for O=Ring thickness then it travels a shorter distance. And therefore, in theory, opens the Tank valve for a shorter time releasing less air per shot. Right? If so, seems a little strange, to me at least, that your velocity did not decrease but shot count did, especially if significant.

I guess this suggests that before the O-Ring addition considerable air was wasted per shot. Makes me wonder abit about the TT Tophat which does not allow travel adjustment but simply restricts air flow to pellet - This also seems like a solution that might waste air...

Thanks for the info - Adding an O-Ring sure seems like a "mod" to try. Just need to find a good product, fit.

Bob

I have an older model wih fully functioning power wheel, well I used to until I added heavy hammer and broke off the delrin screw on the power wheel. Now its stuck at zero. Spring is still engaged with slight tension/preload, but barely, maybe equal to a setting of two. So talk anout wasting air, after pulling the trigger for the first time the tank dumped 3000psi...........that will wake you up LOL So I added the rubber o-ring as Gear had mentioned tp restrict air flow and it works very well. They are cheap and can be installed/removed without pulling the tophat. As Gear also said, I like the mild cushion it provides, especially with the heavy hammer. Even the lighter stock hammer caused flattening of the tophat over years but even then held up very well. You can also trim these up with sand paper to allow for more movement.

Gear_Junkie · « **Reply #9 on:** February 04, 2016, 12:04:16 PM »

Quote from: Bo3b on February 04, 2016, 07:44:29 AM

So, if the O-Ring took up half the Tophat gap and you did not adjust the Tophat to compensate for O=Ring thickness then it travels a shorter distance. And therefore, in theory, opens the Tank valve for a shorter time releasing less air per shot. Right? If so, seems a little strange, to me at least, that your velocity did not decrease but shot count did, especially if significant.

I guess this suggests that before the O-Ring addition considerable air was wasted per shot. Bob

Yes, exactly! Also, I actually used a rubber washer from Ace Hardware. It's beefier than an o-ring, and I expect it will last longer. It fits snug agains the shaft, and has the exact outside diameter as the top hat. As I've mentioned before, I disassembled it after several hundred shots, and saw no wear. You do have to remove the top hat to install the washer, though.

Good Luck.

Back_Roads · « **Reply #10 on:** February 04, 2016, 01:23:41 PM »

I used a 8mmx2mm o-ring a "7mmx2mm would fit as well" and just stretched it over the top hat. It really does quiet the hammer strike, and with my escape UL set at #1 setting I'm shooting 16 gr. pellets at 980 fps range , turn it up to #2 and it's shooting in the 1040 range, with shot counts around 30 + put it this way I loose count of my shots before I run out of air.

I was concerned about o-ring wear too but so far i see no sign, though I do notice in 10.f conditions, I think the o-ring gives a little more resistance , but haven't done any thorough chrony test to prove it or haven't noticed any POI change out to 50 yards.
I have a 2nd spin-loc tank w/o o-rings i can use for full power hunting and prefer that when using the .25 barrel with Heavy Lead and noise isn't an issue.

Bo3b · « **Reply #11 on:** February 06, 2016, 10:03:03 AM »

Assuming grub screws are removed, can Tophat be removed completely from the assembly?
Mine seems to bind after a few turns.

Noticed that one grubs screw is flush w/Tophat collar when "tight", other sits above surface - Is this normal? Wondering if there might be some sort of obstruction in the thread channel or shaft surface where screw locks in. Thought disassembly might provide more info.

Also, thinking it might be worth buying a few spares of this part - Seems like a relative weak point of the AF design...

Tims229 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 06, 2016, 10:39:43 AM »

Quote from: Bo3b on February 06, 2016, 10:03:03 AM

Assuming grub screws are removed, can Tophat be removed completely from the assembly?
Mine seems to bind after a few turns.

Noticed that one grubs screw is flush w/Tophat collar when "tight", other sits above surface - Is this normal? Wondering if there might be some sort of obstruction in the thread channel or shaft surface where screw locks in. Thought disassembly might provide more info.

Also, thinking it might be worth buying a few spares of this part - Seems like a relative weak point of the AF design...

To remove the tophat you need to carefully and evenly pry it from the valve. I was apprehensive about doing this at first, but it comes out pretty easily if you do it evenly. Make sure both grub screws are backed out enough if you just want to thread off the top part of the tophat. In order to get an oring behind the tophat it's best to just pop it out of the valve. There are YouTube videos if seeing it helps you understand better. That was what helped me understand the process best. Hope this helped.

Bo3b · « **Reply #13 on:** February 06, 2016, 12:34:57 PM »

Sorry, I asked my question poorly. I know the entire Tophat assembly can be removed from the rifle. What I'm wondering is - Can the adjustable threaded part (w/the grub screws, I'll call it the "collar") be unscrewed complexly from the Tophat assembly? As I mentioned, I've completely removed the screws and tried to "unscrew" this collar only to feel resistance after a few turns. Just though I might be able to inspect/clean the collar, screws etc w/o removing entire Tophat.

GSu · « **Reply #14 on:** February 06, 2016, 04:37:36 PM »

I'm pretty sure the top hat won't unscrew off . You need to screw it in and it will come off.

When you tighten the little grub screws insert a drill bit that fits (snugly but not tight) backwards in to the top hat opening in so you don't crush the thin walls of the top hat. Removing the drill bit may seem stuck so be careful removing the drill bit. I usually use a pair of pliers to grab the bit and twist and pull.

Gear_Junkie · « **Reply #15 on:** February 06, 2016, 09:08:55 PM »

Quote from: Bo3b on February 06, 2016, 12:34:57 PM

Sorry, I asked my question poorly. I know the entire Tophat assembly can be removed from the rifle. What I'm wondering is - Can the adjustable threaded part (w/the grub screws, I'll call it the "collar") be unscrewed complexly from the Tophat assembly? As I mentioned, I've completely removed the screws and tried to "unscrew" this collar only to feel resistance after a few turns. Just though I might be able to inspect/clean the collar, screws etc w/o removing entire Tophat.

When I loosen both grub screws about 1 turn each, I can completely unscrew and remove my top hat. This is what I did to install the rubber washer on the shaft of the valve.

grimeszee · « **Reply #16 on:** February 08, 2016, 02:12:07 PM »

I did the tophat adjustment using a quarter this weekend to My Talon 177 That I received before Christmas. With the power wheel on 2 I shot 60 shots of 10.4 grain JSB's from 2900 to 1800 PSI with no POI change at 17 yards and managed a 3/8" 5 shot group from shots 55-60 with a 10-15MPH wind moving the target around.

Bo3b · « **Reply #17 on:** February 10, 2016, 08:30:09 AM »

Occurs to me - Why add an O-Ring to an adjustable (factory) Tophat? Why not simply wind down the Tophat collar closer to breech to decrease the gap for reduced air use/waste? Or did this whole O-Ring concept happen in regard to a "fixed", non-adjustable Tophat?

Also noticed that Talon Tunes "Tophat Shims" are made of a harder plastic material which by my way of thinking does little to help the noise issue?

Gear_Junkie · « **Reply #18 on:** February 10, 2016, 12:11:30 PM »

Quote from: Bo3b on February 10, 2016, 08:30:09 AM

Occurs to me - Why add an O-Ring to an adjustable (factory) Tophat? Why not simply wind down the Tophat collar closer to breech to decrease the gap for reduced air use/waste?

When the bolt is closed (after cocking it), and the knob is slid over to the right or the left, you want the bolt to sit snugly against the top hat. If you were to adjust the top hat further in, you would add play between the 2 surfaces, and [I would guess] inconsistency.

454 Big Block Chevy · « **Reply #19 on:** February 10, 2016, 01:52:56 PM »

i have never found the play between them to cause an inconsistancy. however in a 100% perfect world, you would adjust the top hat all the way in. then adjust it OUT until the breech has ZERO movement fore/aft. tighten down the grub screws on top hat. this is a perfect setting as far as breech gap. NOW. you would use a solid delrin or plastic washer, sanded to different thicknessess to perfectly adjust your top hat gap until your happy with it or you get the ideal performance. however, a US quarter coin adjustment of .069-.071 is usually spot on for 99.99% of users. you can get more involved in it, but for MOST shooters, the quarter method should get you perfect. now i would go buy a $5 set of feeler gauges and measure your current gap, so you can go back to it if you wanted to. with PCP rifles the #1 thing you can do to help yourself is get a small notebook and WRITE DOWN EVERYTHING. STOCK ADJUSTMENTS, MADE ADJUSTMENTS, AND WHAT YOU LIKE, DISLIKE. can help you in the future, and pass on good information.

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AF Condor Tophat O-Ring?

Author Topic: AF Condor Tophat O-Ring? (Read 6582 times))