Underlevers

[bmb]

I tend to obsess on things a while so I decided to start now. I often see the HW97K and TX200 compared. Ẃhat are your opinions on how the RWS 460 compares to them?

[grauhanen]

The Diana (RWS) 460 is a more powerful air rifle.  The HW97k (and 77k) and TX 200 are in a different league.  They are the underlevers most often used by FT shooters in the springer class because of their smooth shooting cycle and accuracy.  They are well-built, well-designed, and have great fit and finish, especially the Air Arms.  Diana (RWS) rifles are usually a little more powerful, which can be a selling point to neophytes, but that has nothing to do with quality and accuracy.

[Booger]

I've never shot a 460, but I can give you a comparison between the HW97K & TX200, both of which have been tuned.

[wahoowad]

If you want more info on the 460 then look in the German subforum. Here is a guy tickled with his new 460

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=103476.0

[phoebeisis]

I got my 460 2 weeks ago
I hadn't shot any airguns in 20 years-up until 2 months ago when I pulled out a B3 chinese underlever and stated shooting it in the hallway
I have never been a great shot-ok with firearms-but not a good shot

The targets are at 10 meters- 33 feet
with crosman 9.5 grain lead free pellets-not pellets known for accuracy
The 460-right out of box-one dry swab down barrel-shot better than I can shoot it
These are from us putting on a new scope-bargain basement one from Natchez $29.95+$11 shipping- 3x9 32 (nice scope) and adjusting it
1)The right target-three shot group is after adjusting it a bit-but then we noticed the scope reticle wasn't "level" so we leveled it  10MM C TO C
2)and middle  2 shot group is after we had it sighted in  5MM C-C
3)the  lower  group middle target 3 shots- is after scope adjusted-but shooting standing freehand-much lower than resting on chair(1.5" lower but not bad for me freehand) 13MM C-C
There were no flyers-called or otherwise-it always grouped -just depended on how we adjusted scope
far left is my brother free hand shooting  ignore

Granted just 33 feet-but light not particularly accurate pellets-shot by me-not a good shot-OK shot not good
 My 460 will shoot awfully well-right out of box with SSP lead free 9.5 grain zinc aluminum alloy pellets-stiff skirts won't seal/bite  as well in rifling


The lead free pellets are stiff-hard-certainly won't grab that shallow pellet gun rifling-
but with this rifle-no problem


It isn't really noisy but it does have a little "jump" not exactly recoil-just that spring banging forward-but the pellet must clear the barrel well before it slams forward- hits front of "chamber"

The 460 is a good accurate rifle right out of box in inexpert hands-$360 DELIVERED 2 WEEKS AGO- GRAB A GUN
Charlie

[Kailua]

Too heavy or too light pellets may be damaging to a spring airgun.  Just something I've been told.

[bmb]

Thanks for all the responses so far. Hopefully I can get my hands on a couple of these to see some of the things being mentioned.

[anuthabubba]

Never shot a 460. Have owned an HW77k (2 now) since they came out and have shot 97s and TXs. Had 48s/52s also. Had an RWS350 for a while but the extra long stroke that came along with its higher power output, wasn't worth (to me) the other operational characteristics. I find no lack of accuracy, power or effective range for dispatching any airgun quarry, up to nutria size at 75 yards, from my older Dans, Bens or HWs. 

[phoebeisis]

Take a look at the german gun forum.

A poster has a very pretty HW97 laminated blue stock
she -maybe her handle is -north country gal- she lives  somewhere cold/snowing etc

she just posted a 5 shot  50 YARD group   .6" 15mm
at 10 yards it would be 3mm- just a  tight cloverleaf
This was  outside shooting in between the wind gusts-
and she just got it a few weeks ago-
hard to picture a pellet gun being much more accurate than that- in the cold wind gusts etc

Related note another poster mentioned a dutch gun seller Krael something or other that was selling one version of the HW97 for $400 USA delivered-it was 360 Euros  guessing he got some deal on shipping??
It wasn't the pretty blue laminate stock-but … it was a HW97
they seem to be $600 plus in USA- maybe $700 for the blue laminated

[Josan]

..........
Related note another poster mentioned a dutch gun seller Krael something or other that was selling one version of the HW97 for $400 USA delivered-it was 360 Euros  guessing he got some deal on shipping??
It wasn't the pretty blue laminate stock-but … it was a HW97
they seem to be $600 plus in USA- maybe $700 for the blue laminated

Krale Schietsport

[north country gal]

Take a look at the german gun forum.

A poster has a very pretty HW97 laminated blue stock
she -maybe her handle is -north country gal- she lives  somewhere cold/snowing etc

she just posted a 5 shot  50 YARD group   .6" 15mm
at 10 yards it would be 3mm- just a  tight cloverleaf
This was  outside shooting in between the wind gusts-
and she just got it a few weeks ago-
hard to picture a pellet gun being much more accurate than that- in the cold wind gusts etc

Related note another poster mentioned a dutch gun seller Krael something or other that was selling one version of the HW97 for $400 USA delivered-it was 360 Euros  guessing he got some deal on shipping??
It wasn't the pretty blue laminate stock-but … it was a HW97
they seem to be $600 plus in USA- maybe $700 for the blue laminated

Yup, that's me with the 97K Blue. Can't wait for spring.

Seriously, though, check the current post on 50 yards accuracy expectations 177 Spring gun? for a good down to earth discussion on these guns.

[Brazos]

I have a walnut TX200.  It is a beautiful rifle and I enjoy owning it and shooting it.  I post this to say don't get hung up on under levers being the pinical of spring rifle design.  I can't find they shoot any better than a break barrel of equal quality and they are much harder to load.  I am not suggesting not buying one.  Just don't expect anything special.  If I were to buy one I would get the HW97 or TX200.

[bmb]

Take a look at the german gun forum.

A poster has a very pretty HW97 laminated blue stock
she -maybe her handle is -north country gal- she lives  somewhere cold/snowing etc

she just posted a 5 shot  50 YARD group   .6" 15mm
at 10 yards it would be 3mm- just a  tight cloverleaf
This was  outside shooting in between the wind gusts-
and she just got it a few weeks ago-
hard to picture a pellet gun being much more accurate than that- in the cold wind gusts etc

Related note another poster mentioned a dutch gun seller Krael something or other that was selling one version of the HW97 for $400 USA delivered-it was 360 Euros  guessing he got some deal on shipping??
It wasn't the pretty blue laminate stock-but … it was a HW97
they seem to be $600 plus in USA- maybe $700 for the blue laminated

North Country Gal's blue hw is what prompted my post. However, from what I have seen, all her groups are excellent no matter what the gun. I'd have to see her results from a 460 to be fair. And yes its cold by her, she lives an hour north of me.
I also was contacted by Greg about the great deal he found at Kräle Shietport. I haven't seen any of his HW shooting results.

Thank you for the thoughtful response.

[bmb]

I have a walnut TX200.  It is a beautiful rifle and I enjoy owning it and shooting it.  I post this to say don't get hung up on under levers being the pinical of spring rifle design.  I can't find they shoot any better than a break barrel of equal quality and they are much harder to load.  I am not suggesting not buying one.  Just don't expect anything special.  If I were to buy one I would get the HW97 or TX200.

I have two underlevers already. A B3 and XS46U. Yes loading them is cumbersome. But, as far as my springers, my 46U is the easiest to consistently shoot accurately. It is awesome. However, like you said, that isn't necessarily because it is an underlever. I have two Diannas as well. I have never found myself wishing they were made any better. Which led me to wonder, how much better can the HW and TX be?  Further more, how are they out of the box? Do they still need to be debured and relubed? Still benefit from a vortek kit? If so, why not buy the 460 and use the extra money for a pro tune? Hopefully I can get to a fun shoot and see some of this for myself.

Please don't think I'm questioning the answers I asked your opinions on. I just get a bit ocd sometimes. Just ask my wife.

Thanks again for all your answers.

[anuthabubba]

I have two underlevers already. A B3 and XS46U... Which led me to wonder, how much better can the HW and TX be?
Thanks again for all your answers.

You will never know just by reading about them.

[DonH]

I have a walnut TX200.  It is a beautiful rifle and I enjoy owning it and shooting it.  I post this to say don't get hung up on under levers being the pinical of spring rifle design.  I can't find they shoot any better than a break barrel of equal quality and they are much harder to load.  I am not suggesting not buying one.  Just don't expect anything special.  If I were to buy one I would get the HW97 or TX200.

I have two underlevers already. A B3 and XS46U. Yes loading them is cumbersome. But, as far as my springers, my 46U is the easiest to consistently shoot accurately. It is awesome. However, like you said, that isn't necessarily because it is an underlever. I have two Diannas as well. I have never found myself wishing they were made any better. Which led me to wonder, how much better can the HW and TX be?  Further more, how are they out of the box? Do they still need to be debured and relubed? Still benefit from a vortek kit? If so, why not buy the 460 and use the extra money for a pro tune? Hopefully I can get to a fun shoot and see some of this for myself.

Please don't think I'm questioning the answers I asked your opinions on. I just get a bit ocd sometimes. Just ask my wife.

Thanks again for all your answers.

Skip the pro tune! Get the Vortek tune kit and do it your self! Really a German made gun doesn't need to be put on a lathe and fine tuned with buttons. I have a RWS 34 and a Walther lgv and they both are well built and tight tolerance. Both are very accurate. The Walther lgv being less hold sensitive because of the  design. Making it more forgiving and accurate in my hands. I've read how hold sensitive some of the underlevers can be. Ugly Mike has a HW 97 for sale. It's been pro tuned.

[phoebeisis]

  BMB
Good point North Country is a good shot-that is a problem
So let's ask her-

North Country Gal
Which of your rifles is BEST-
1)Most accurate-?
2)Easiest to shoot most accurately?-least finicky hold etc
3) easiest to shoot freehand standing most accurately??

Thanks
charlie

Take a look at the german gun forum.

A poster has a very pretty HW97 laminated blue stock
she -maybe her handle is -north country gal- she lives  somewhere cold/snowing etc

she just posted a 5 shot  50 YARD group   .6" 15mm
at 10 yards it would be 3mm- just a  tight cloverleaf
This was  outside shooting in between the wind gusts-
and she just got it a few weeks ago-
hard to picture a pellet gun being much more accurate than that- in the cold wind gusts etc

Related note another poster mentioned a dutch gun seller Krael something or other that was selling one version of the HW97 for $400 USA delivered-it was 360 Euros  guessing he got some deal on shipping??
It wasn't the pretty blue laminate stock-but … it was a HW97
they seem to be $600 plus in USA- maybe $700 for the blue laminated

North Country Gal's blue hw is what prompted my post. However, from what I have seen, all her groups are excellent no matter what the gun. I'd have to see her results from a 460 to be fair. And yes its cold by her, she lives an hour north of me.
I also was contacted by Greg about the great deal he found at Kräle Shietport. I haven't seen any of his HW shooting results.

Thank you for the thoughtful response.

[HectorMedina]

I tend to obsess on things a while so I decided to start now. I often see the HW97K and TX200 compared. Ẃhat are your opinions on how the RWS 460 compares to them?

Bradley;

IMHO, any discussion about guns needs to start with a statement or a question:

"I want to ..... with this gun" (add in there: plink, hunt, target shoot, etc.)

OR

"You need to tell us what you want the gun for?"

There is no "Universal" gun that can excel in all areas. SO, being specific always helps in getting good results.

If you are going to be OCD about anything, it should be about laying out the problem that needs to be solved as accurately and completely as you can. From there on the answers are almost obvious.

Having said that, what I can tell you about the underlevers is that most European underlevers are designed for European shooting. The LGU, the HW97, the TX-200, they are pretty much the same gun: Sliding compression chamber, same trigger, same rotating piston arrangement, same fixed barrel. The aesthetics change a little and some details here and there change a little, but, essentially it is the SAME gun, even down to some critical measurements, like bore and stroke.
Since bore and stroke are what determines your power level potential, they all have more or less the same power levels.

The D460 was designed for a different crew of people.

The 460 is essentially the 350 in an underlever format. It had its "teething" problems, but the new T-06 models are fine rifles to own, hunt, shoot and work with.
The platform is a little too powerful for the 0.177" cal. I would suggest getting a 0.22" if you want to keep it at full power.
The ONLY weak point currently in the gun's design is the compression chamber holding spring. If this is not the right one, you will get consistent troubles in the breech seal area.
SOME people object to the plastic muzzle piece, I happen to like it, but that is just me.
Do NOT buy a T-05 model as some of those had a problem with the cocking lever. Some don't, but if you can, just avoid them.

A good 460 will yield accurate 22 - 23 ft-lbs shots all day long at sea, or near sea, level. If you go up to 1000 FASL, it will still keep its performance. Dianas loose about 2.5% of ME per 1,000 feet ABOVE the FIRST 1,000 FASL.

At that power level, yes, you need to be a fair to good shot. Or you will learn how to be one if you keep at it.

Vortek and Maccari springs are good additions/modifications and further mods are possible.

It is a long gun. Not a compact by any means. The other underlevers are compacts, not the Diana.

A slender and handsome lady, IMHO.

HTH





Héctor Medina

[lefteyeshot]

I like my 470th .177 a lot. I can hit 3" bulls at 100 yards consistently if I do my part and it's not too windy. The trigger is like magic. It like the 8.44 grain JSB Exact domed.

[north country gal]

"BMB
Good point North Country is a good shot-that is a problem
So let's ask her-

North Country Gal
Which of your rifles is BEST-
1)Most accurate-?
2)Easiest to shoot most accurately?-least finicky hold etc
3) easiest to shoot freehand standing most accurately??

Thanks
charlie"

Wow! Appreciate the confidence, though I don't know that I am worthy. I'll give it a try, though. Thanks for the nice comment, Charlie.

I think Hector's post, above, is spot on when he describes the TX200, HW97K and other springers that are designed with FT in mind. They really are the same gun, just some subtle differences and nuances as to balance, shot cycle and so on. I currently have the TX200 and two 97Ks - the standard and the Blue and just ordered a TX200 HC and a 77K (which I will use, exclusively for iron sight shooting). All are essentially 35-50 yard target guns for me. Some, like the TX200 and the Blue 97K will be used solely from the bench and, some, like the standard 97K, the TX200 HC and the 77K will see double duty for bench and offhand work. Yes, it seems like a lot of duplication, but, remember, there are two us shooting. My husband like to shoot, too.

Again, as per Hector's post, how do plan to use an under lever? I am a target shooter, though and through. We don't hunt, anymore, so we don't need the power. Most of our shooting is at our range, so we don't carry guns, much, either. Weight is only an issue for my offhand shooting. If I had to carry any of these guns all day in the woods, I'd hire someone to carry for me.

1. Accuracy
    What minuscule difference in accuracy there is with these guns is more a matter of variation with an individual gun than the brand or   
    model. If any of them deliver less than outstanding accuracy, it's me having a bad shooting day, the wind or I forgot to check for screw
    tightness and so on.

2. I treat all my guns as individuals and work out holds that work best with each gun. These are all heavy guns, so relative to our lighter
    springers, I don't regard any of them as particularly hold fussy. Anyone who is springer savvy will find them easy to shoot.

3. For offhand work, I prefer to keep gun weight below 9 pounds and much prefer a gun that is not too muzzle heavy. Love the TX, but
    very hard for me to shoot, offhand, for any length of time with all that weight, forward. That's why I will be adding the TX HC to the   
    herd. It's also why I use our standard 97K for offhand work.

If you stood me in a corner and threatened to cut me off of coffee and chocolate until I named my favorite gun for 50 yard target work ... it would have to be my standard 97K. I can shoot it form any position, comfortably, and I just like its user friendly features.

Again, as per Hector's excellent post, you need to get specific about your uses. As you can see, my shooting is relatively narrow in focus.