A New Method for Increasing the Efficiency of a PCP - the SSG

[rsterne]

Travis, just because one iteration of a concept could be improved is no reason to throw out that version of the SSG.... My summary of David's concept can be seen summarized in Reply # 356 on page 18.... although his post about it is even further back....

Bob

[oldpro]

Its the implementation of YOUR design not the design thats the problem. Im not saying throw it out but make it right before you take credit for it and SELL it to the public. Did either men ask you for a simple ok? I doubt it. Bob I finally get to disagree with you haha! 

[rsterne]

I seriously doubt that Steve asked David's blessing either.... David has been contributing to this thread for quite a while (Reply #266, page 14), and I have no problem with his input, in fact my latest version is based on his concept but with a loose guide instead of it fastened into the hammer.... Your design is quite similar to the one that bstaley proposed, so they are all related....

Bob

[oldpro]

After looking back threw the pics and thread David (I like Irons)I owe you and apology it was steves attempt at your design that got me flustered I am sorry It read in your post like you were partners with Steve and  the design hes selling! It just bugs me when I see people turn out stuff like this to the public when I work my butt off trying to get it right. Again David sorry. dangit Bob I guess I didnt get to disagree with you aaarrrgggghhhh...Humbled

[rsterne]

Easy to get emotional when you are close to something.... I do it all the time.... I find that after the first few hundred helpings of humble pie, you actually acquire a taste for it.... *LOL*.... No harm, no foul, as far as I'm concerned....

Bob

[oldpro]

 Yep I read the post wrong and thats on me. I had it in my head he was partners with Steve but its now obvious Steve just used his idea and poorly.

[Motorhead]

Well ... as designs get hashed out, tried & tossed for another in the on going search for the ideal SSG design ... The original idea which keeps all the spring / stop rod parts independent of the hammer has the most consistent hammer strike of all IMO.  No secondary vibrations from the hammer spring, No cant or bind issues when done correctly.  Outside of the stop rod protruding out when cocked is has no faults that I have seen.
4 personal PCP's done with the same style ( Shared early in thread ) having all operate flawless with very tight velocity spread.

Cool to see the innovation, but don't find myself changing out whats already done    K.I.S.S. works

[sawtoothscream]

So, did anyone make a parts list for the marauder yet?    thanks

[FuzzyGrub]

Fuzzy if he sells enough of them it will put a black eye on the SSG I still have to explain to people to this day our NBH isnt the same thing as the AOA device.

Travis, understand, but given you are a seller of a similar device it can be perceived by people who don't know you, that you could be worried more about the impact to your sales, then the purity to Bob's design.  It is easy to take it personal, but recommend just letting it go.  Speaking of the NBH, I suspect your SSG will be a NBH killer.  Lower cost, easier to adjust, and probably better longevity.  There maybe a niche still for the NBH in certain applications, though.   The better mousetrap replaces the old one.   

As with any device and implementation, there will be drawbacks and benefits to each.  While a more thought out design, such as yours, will be easier to adjust, have more flexibility, more consistent shots, etc, there is no proof at this point that his implementation does not work.  It certainly appears that he trying to "jump the gun" to be one of the 1st sellers, but he is also constrained by his designated price point.  While he has posted pricing, also mentions still in testing.  If it is a dud, people will report it as such.  Just like as reports will come in on your implementation, indicating how easy it is to adjust, etc.  The marketplace will always sort it out.   Just like LDC's and other devices for our guns, there will be all sorts of price ranges and tradeoffs associated with each.   

FWIW: the fact that he did not ask Bob's permission, has a more direct impact on my non-purchase decision, than the design limitations.     

[Tomg]

Well ... as designs get hashed out, tried & tossed for another in the on going search for the ideal SSG design ... The original idea which keeps all the spring / stop rod parts independent of the hammer has the most consistent hammer strike of all IMO.  No secondary vibrations from the hammer spring, No cant or bind issues when done correctly.  Outside of the stop rod protruding out when cocked is has no faults that I have seen.
4 personal PCP's done with the same style ( Shared early in thread ) having all operate flawless with very tight velocity spread.

Cool to see the innovation, but don't find myself changing out whats already done    K.I.S.S. works

There is one potential huge drawback of that one, I have done some accuracy testing with it, and because the stop happens before the valve is struck, it's the equivalent to kicking the gun just before you shoot. Not good for accuracy at all. In my testing, shooting around 300 rounds now, the results are not good. Efficiency is great, as pr. expectations, but the resulting jolt to the chassis is throwing of the accuracy in a really profound, and unacceptable way.
I've solved this by moving everything to the hammer. I will post a picture as soon as Photobucket is back online.

[aceflier]

So, did anyone make a parts list for the marauder yet?    thanks

+1

I'll probably just by one from WAR.

[dmeguy]

Travis, do you have plans to offer an SSG for the 22xx platform?

[Motorhead]

Well ... as designs get hashed out, tried & tossed for another in the on going search for the ideal SSG design ... The original idea which keeps all the spring / stop rod parts independent of the hammer has the most consistent hammer strike of all IMO.  No secondary vibrations from the hammer spring, No cant or bind issues when done correctly.  Outside of the stop rod protruding out when cocked is has no faults that I have seen.
4 personal PCP's done with the same style ( Shared early in thread ) having all operate flawless with very tight velocity spread.

Cool to see the innovation, but don't find myself changing out whats already done    K.I.S.S. works

There is one potential huge drawback of that one, I have done some accuracy testing with it, and because the stop happens before the valve is struck, it's the equivalent to kicking the gun just before you shoot. Not good for accuracy at all. In my testing, shooting around 300 rounds now, the results are not good. Efficiency is great, as pr. expectations, but the resulting jolt to the chassis is throwing of the accuracy in a really profound, and unacceptable way.
I've solved this by moving everything to the hammer. I will post a picture as soon as Photobucket is back online.

They ALL stop before hammer impacts poppet stem ! As i see designs the ONLY version that does as your describing requires stop rod to be integral with hammer having the sliding rear collar.  That design is super critical on allowing MUCH clearance on rear because when hammer cants being cocked and held by sear, stop rod go's sideways too 

By keeping the stop rod mass at a minimum and incorporate a stop bumper, vibration or "Bump" of the stoppage of the stop guide parts independent of hammer becomes nil.  * Big & heavy bolt used as a stop rod ... would agree 

[thelast88]

First to say, thanks to rsterne for what he shared such a simple and great invention.

I have a Marauder (but it's regulated) and I made a basic version of SSG for like $2. Yeah, it protrudes out from the back of the gun but it did the job done. For $2!

All you need is:
1. Short screw which will replace striker screw and thus extend the stroke of the hammer by at least 0.5" and
2. I think 6x80mm bolt (metric size, imperial is something like 0.25" diameter and 3" long) and nut for that bolt, maybe some o ring that will remove some metal to metal noise.

I was using all original Marauder parts, just the striker screw is replaced. Pictures is just bellow in attachment (not the final version, it will be shortened and painted.)


I do not understand why anyone would want to pay $95 for the same thing but just "nicer packaged"? 

EDIT: I also have Crosman 2240 and just have to drill the end cap, If someone want I can post the pictures and specs.

[oldpro]

 Because mines NOT the same thing, My version doesnt have that finger pincher rod coming out the back and to make it all internal you have to mill/lathe parts and put set screws in, tap holes refinish parts etc. very time consuming. I had that design and it works great until you rip the flesh off the top of your hand like I did and that $95 will sound awfully cheap lol

[BigTinBoat]

There is one potential huge drawback of that one, I have done some accuracy testing with it, and because the stop happens before the valve is struck, it's the equivalent to kicking the gun just before you shoot. Not good for accuracy at all. In my testing, shooting around 300 rounds now, the results are not good. Efficiency is great, as pr. expectations, but the resulting jolt to the chassis is throwing of the accuracy in a really profound, and unacceptable way.
I've solved this by moving everything to the hammer. I will post a picture as soon as Photobucket is back online.

The phrase "there's no free lunch" ALWAYS come to mind for me when someone comes up with something "new", "revolutionary", "beyond belief", etc.

[SynRodSteve]

Do you have to remove the end cap to adjust the spring preoload?  Seems like on pincher design, you would.

[rsterne]

Scott, I think the version I am currently using has the best potential overall.... The spring guide is separate from the hammer, free floating, and only has to pick up the mass of the small collar before hitting the valve to add to the hammer strike, therefore wasting none of the spring energy.... It acts like I_like_Irons version, with the guide attached to the hammer, but without the alignment issues.... I do agree, though, that the original version, with a light guide to minimize energy waste, and the disturbance to the gun just before hammer strike, has simplicity going for it, and does appear to have the lowest ES....

It will be interesting to revisit this thread in a year and see which versions have survived for the DIY guys (which is why I developed it).... and which direction  the commercial versions take and which survive and their price point....

Steve, on the original "pincher" design as you call it (*LOL*).... you can adjust both preload and gap without disassembly, with just a screwdriver slot in the end of the guide, if you use a Nyloc stop nut....

TomG, the very first SSG made is on my .30 cal Grizzly, which has an 80 gr. hammer with nearly a 1" stroke, and the SSG guide assembly that comes to a crashing halt weighs nearly 20 grams (20% of the total 100 gr. weight).... The gun is extremely accurate, and doesn't throw "fliers", nor do I notice any disturbance of the gun when fired.... The gun only weighs a bit over 7 lbs. all up....

Bob

[zaphod621]

I believe Tomg may be on to something. Accuracy trumps efficiency to me and most of the results seem biased towards efficiency. I tried the original design in a .25 Mrod using a 10# spring and accuracy went south badly. Tried a 6# spring and found if adjusted stop length to just starting to hear hammer bounce my accuracy returned to normal but efficiency suffered . Seems the more hammer gap dialed in the groups opened up past 40 yards or so and at 70 yards became 4 inches or larger for 5 shots. Speculating the 10# spring was whacking the end cap hard enough to effect the shot while still in the barrel?
With 6# spring if it walk the tightrope between hammer bounce & stop nut contact I  seem to regain some acceptable accuracy with increased efficiency.
Not trying to rain on anyone's  parade, just giving my observation

[oldpro]

 The original version works AWESOME and costs only $10 to build at most! It will greatly improve your gun for the least mount of money BUT As a retailer I cannot put a product into the market place that can potentially hurt someone thats what took me down the road I went down and why my SSG isnt $30. Your not just getting a spring and a guide your getting all the parts pictured above machined and pre set up for and easy drop in. For the do it yourselfers The original design is simple works well and you can easily remove plus its dirt cheap. I think that sums it up for me.