Cast slugs in a choked barrel, why not?

[Onebaddj]

After reading a few strands where people are saying not to shoot slugs out of a choked barrel or chopping the choke off the barrels to use them with slugs my question is why? I have shot a ton of slugs through my 22 condor and unless i am wrong it has a choked barrel. They shoot exactly where i want them to go out to 40 yds sofar.

What am i missing?

[Motorhead]

Choke in AG barrels for Diablo "Pellets" only need to crush & diameter reduce said pellet at a thin band on head & skirt areas.
Due to these thin contact areas of pellet to bore contact, basically swaging there size smaller as pellet passes threw the tighter choke area speed lost is minimal.

* take a slug with its substantially greater contact area to barrel bore & rifling, when it contacts the choke portion and gets crushed smaller over its greater contact surface there is much greater friction happening, deceleration of said slug.
There is generally NO NEED for a choke in a slug barrel when slug / bore size is correct.


*** Now that said ... pending AMOUNT of choke present in said pellet barrels makes to varying degrees the effect stated above

If your barrel only has a minimal choke it very well may pass slugs w/o issue ... IMO

[rsterne]

I agree, and some bullets are designed to cope with a small amount of choke, with the amount of lead in contact with the rifling relatively small, compared to the length of the bullet.... The new BBT's I designed for NOE Molds are an example.... The center portion of the bullet doesn't even touch the lands.... Here is an example of the 51 gr. .250 cal....



The center portion of that bullet is only 0.242" in diameter.... The back of the nose is 0.250" and the driving band at the rear 0.252".... and can be varied from there by NOE to custom fit various barrel diameters.... There is currently a group buy for the mold on at NOE in two sizes.... 0.250/0.252" and 0.253/0.255".... http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,1233.0.html ....

Bob

[oldpro]

 Bob thats awesome!!! How about .30 cal?

[rsterne]

Posted in the thread in Big Bore Gate RE the 63-68 gr.... There is also an 74-80 gr. but might not work in your twist.... http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,1124.0.html

Bob

[Tofazfou]

DJ,

I agree with the above comments on what "POSSIBLY" could be going on but i have more indepth questions.  How good are the groups at 40 yards in inches that you get?  Peoples perception of "acceptable" vary soooo much and we all tend to call everything "GOOD" or "GOOD ENOUGH" when it suites US but we never give a definition of what that is (read......CTC").  And don't take that the wrong way cause there is a point and i mean no sarcasm or hurt.

How good are your groups with that gun out further?  Say 50-75 yards or even 100+ yards.

Normally, slugs are somewhat SOLID for at least 50-70% (not 100% accurate and just me guesstimating cause slug shapes vary widely) of the length of the projectile.  When all of that is RAMMED into a constrictive fitment at 880-1000 fps, im quiet sure its stripping away some lead mass due to SQUEEZING down the slug furthermore.  Shooting more and more i'm sure enhances the lead build up at the choke.  A pellets bearing surface is so minute compared to a solid slug and, pellets and pellet barrels are designed around each other.  Or, the choked barrel was made to shoot diablo pellets.  Back then, shooting a slug i'm sure was not even fathomable.

So, i'm sure with all the varieties and shapes of todays cast or swagged slug, 1 or 2 of them might just work DECENTLY in a choked barrel.  But from my own experiences, they DON"T.

1 thing i've noticed about slugs and pellets over the years is that a LOT of ammo performs well at 25-30-35-40 yards either well or decently but fall flat when pushed out to 60-75 yards.  Further also.

[Onebaddj]

Thanks for all the info gents! Pretty interesting read and has started the gears turning again. The gun is a 22 cal condor with a stock 24 inch barrel. Im shooting the slug that john (johningthecamper) made me in 40-50 gr and in sizes from .216-.218. The noses are from 1/2 to 1 e. Sofar the 45 gr 1e at 40 yards the 1st 3 shots are touching. Then they slow to much and start to spiral out. Touching groups is good for me. Lol havnt had a chance to run them out further yet. Might get a chance to stretch it out next weekend if the weather permits to check accuracy and penetration out to 65 yds.

Man this new though path is again leading into the new barrel. Thats a 2nd reason to put a 28 or 30 in 22 cal heavy barrel on it. Get an unchoked one for slugs and the length may also get me the added velocity to get me the last 7 fpe to hit the 100 fpe goal in 22 cal!

Thanks for education and flaming the fire! Got my gears turning again. That usually ends up costing me money. Lol

[Extreme .457]

Cedric, well said. I'm no pro by any means but, if my gun makers asks me not to shoot cast I think I will listen to him. Letting the maker do the testing and finding what works best in his product. I personally would rather shoot a coyote size animal 75 yds with a 44 JSB pellet 900 fps in the head exactly where I aimed. Verses a body shot hoping the shot was true. Either way the animal will be dead but I would rather not chase and hunt it down again. I love cast that is why I own my guns designed for cast and my pellet guns. Point I'm trying to make is use in the gun what it's designed to shoot with. I shoot cast Thru my Sumatra .25 long gun. I'm not sure who did the leg work on the Sumatra but she shoots pellets and cast very good. Only thing Mr. Will Piatt told me to do is clean the barrel regular when shooting cast. He explain that hard shooting guns tend to foul the barrel. There are those guns that the makers have tested I'm sure, that can shoot either or.  I an no Machinest or gunsmith just a person who loves his Airguns. I love sending projectiles toward a target  Take care Fellas.

[nielsenammo]

Cedric, well said. I'm no pro by any means but, if my gun makers asks me not to shoot cast I think I will listen to him. Letting the maker do the testing and finding what works best in his product. I personally would rather shoot a coyote size animal 75 yds with a 44 JSB pellet 900 fps in the head exactly where I aimed. Verses a body shot hoping the shot was true. Either way the animal will be dead but I would rather not chase and hunt it down again. I love cast that is why I own my guns designed for cast and my pellet guns. Point I'm trying to make is use in the gun what it's designed to shoot with. I shoot cast Thru my Sumatra .25 long gun. I'm not sure who did the leg work on the Sumatra but she shoots pellets and cast very good. Only thing Mr. Will Piatt told me to do is clean the barrel regular when shooting cast. He explain that hard shooting guns tend to foul the barrel. There are those guns that the makers have tested I'm sure, that can shoot either or.  I an no Machinest or gunsmith just a person who loves his Airguns. I love sending projectiles toward a target  Take care Fellas.

I love shooting slugs as well although pellets still have their use. Extreme, you can coat your bullets in your gun, not hard to do but a little time consuming.  It drastically reduces lead fouling and can go a long time before cleaning.  I use High Tek coating. 

You just buy the product and add a bit of acetone and mix with the slugs.  Spread them out to dry and bake in a toaster oven for 10 minutes.  One coat probably good enough but I do two which makes them look real good. You will see people powder coating but I think it puts too thick of a coat and not even and terrible with hollow point or hollow base bullets.

[blackdiesel]

Cedric, well said. I'm no pro by any means but, if my gun makers asks me not to shoot cast I think I will listen to him. Letting the maker do the testing and finding what works best in his product. I personally would rather shoot a coyote size animal 75 yds with a 44 JSB pellet 900 fps in the head exactly where I aimed. Verses a body shot hoping the shot was true. Either way the animal will be dead but I would rather not chase and hunt it down again. I love cast that is why I own my guns designed for cast and my pellet guns. Point I'm trying to make is use in the gun what it's designed to shoot with. I shoot cast Thru my Sumatra .25 long gun. I'm not sure who did the leg work on the Sumatra but she shoots pellets and cast very good. Only thing Mr. Will Piatt told me to do is clean the barrel regular when shooting cast. He explain that hard shooting guns tend to foul the barrel. There are those guns that the makers have tested I'm sure, that can shoot either or.  I an no Machinest or gunsmith just a person who loves his Airguns. I love sending projectiles toward a target  Take care Fellas.

Sumatra's barrels are not choked.  I tried a couple of slugs in mines but couldn't really find any that shot better than the 43 gr EJ pellets.  I decided if I needed more power than this combo offered, I would just use a 30 or 35 cal instead of trying to make the Sumatra more powerful. 

[Gr8Gorilla]

Any time I have suggested using a slug in a choked pellet barrel, I have also suggested that the slug be designed for use in a choked barrel. It can work if you don't just shove any old slug in the bore and just pray it doesn't get stuck....

[Tofazfou]

Thanks for all the info gents! Pretty interesting read and has started the gears turning again. The gun is a 22 cal condor with a stock 24 inch barrel. Im shooting the slug that john (johningthecamper) made me in 40-50 gr and in sizes from .216-.218. The noses are from 1/2 to 1 e. Sofar the 45 gr 1e at 40 yards the 1st 3 shots are touching. Then they slow to much and start to spiral out. Touching groups is good for me. Lol havnt had a chance to run them out further yet. Might get a chance to stretch it out next weekend if the weather permits to check accuracy and penetration out to 65 yds.

Man this new though path is again leading into the new barrel. Thats a 2nd reason to put a 28 or 30 in 22 cal heavy barrel on it. Get an unchoked one for slugs and the length may also get me the added velocity to get me the last 7 fpe to hit the 100 fpe goal in 22 cal!

Thanks for education and flaming the fire! Got my gears turning again. That usually ends up costing me money. Lol

DJ,

3 holes touching at 40 yards is awesome PERIOD!  Nothing wrong with that.
But something starts changing once you get out a little further.  I'm not surprised at that.

But i tell you what, you solve that buy doing exactly what your doing and you just don't take kill shots past lets say 50-55 yards.

If the slugs are starting to wobble or rotate on axis once your past 40-60 yards (you have to determine absolute accurate range with your combo) then logic tells me it will get much worse once your at the 60-100 yard distances.

To get 40 yard touching shots is good though and that will guarantee you a kill if you do your part.

I remember this topic from back in the TALON FORUM days.  SOme guys got great accuracy with slugs and many did not.  That right there shows you that there are numerous variable between any 2 guns.  ESPECIALLY THE AIRFORCE LINE OF GUNS!

[Extreme .457]

Neilsenammo and Blackdeisel thanks for this info. Any and all info is greatly appreciated! I guess that's why the Sumatra can shoot the cast. Mine really likes the Hunters Supply HollowPoint and Flatpoint. But, the heavy pellets in JSB and EinJun pellets are hard to beat! I lenjoy shooting water bottles out past 100yds with the Sumatra and cast. It carries a little better in this West Tx wind.
   Take care Fellas

[K.O.]

I have a 1950s Beretta made  26" choked 22lr barrel ~ 223-220 narrowing  to .212 land .218 groove at choke with 6 narrow  lands... I think  I will be able to send some slugs down range with .5" .75" groups at 50 yards... but words are deep till proven