R9 loose lockup

[nced]

Thanks for the answer, mine looks dry so I am going down stairs an dab some in there now

If you use molly paste (this is a REALLY good application for molly paste) you'll be able to feel the slicker barrel latch-up. After a while (perhaps a couple tins of pellets) the barrel won't seem to close as "slickly" so I apply another THIN smear on the detent. Keep in mind that molly paste will diesel so don't use enough to get pushed into the transfer port.

[R1]

Have you tried blackening the detent with a sharpie marker, close/open the barrel and seeing where it is locking up?  If it is stopping short of full lockup, maybe filing the detent 'point' a little would help it seat deeper into the locking wedge.  Just a thought.

[palonej]

Very curious to the outcome of this one.
My detent looks just like the OP's......little gap.
I have no issues with lock up however.

[wimpanzee]

I did lightly brush some molygraph on the detents last night. Maybe that's why its feeling so easy to to unlatch after I put it back together...printing some targets out now to do test before I decide to take the detent out and check the spring.

The detent was dry and shiny, so I don't think it had any lube on the contact surfaces. I can see some slight wear marks on the spring loaded one, its not full contact, but it the scuffs do cover a considerable amount of the surface.

[wimpanzee]

After getting sighted back in, I managed a couple groups on paper under 1" at 25 yards - much better than before - but not as good as my best. Also, to get back on paper, I pretty much had to undo the crazy scope adjustments from yesterday. I think a barrel cleaning might help, its been several hundred shots since the last one.

After that, I went 12/13 on my gamo spinners, and reliably hit the 1" hole on my crow target. I think I'm back to 'as good as it was'. All I did was lube the detent and slightly loosen the pivot bolt...might have been a false alarm, or maybe the detent just needed a little lube to function smoothly.

Thanks again for everyone's input, lots of good data on this thread!

[Sfttailrdr46]

  Some times we are our own worst enemies , on a brighter note after reading your post I checked my RX2 and put a small amount of Kroytox  #226 around the spring loaded detent and the cocking and lockup are much smoother the rifle also breaks open a little easier for cocking 

[wimpanzee]

Some times we are our own worst enemies , on a brighter note after reading your post I checked my RX2 and put a small amount of Kroytox  #226 around the spring loaded detent and the cocking and lockup are much smoother the rifle also breaks open a little easier for cocking 

All is not lost! We helped someone else!

[Pitchfire]

"have seen on one rifle that I tried it on, the Krytox will eventually seperate from the moly (I was using Maccari moly), and on my rifle it appeared that the Krytox kind of "balled up" into little chunks instead of staying evenly spread."

What I was referring to is Krytox 214-216 that comes with moly. Combining the proper dry moly (proper micron size) should have the same effect, however combining a non-fluorinated moly paste with Krytox will most assuredly not improve things for the reasons stated as well as likely demulsification (the mixture is likely to separate as well as fail before the Krytox base materials).

As for tests I think that the Krytox fluorinated base passes every reasonable test for lubricity and corrosion protection. Velocity tends to vary however and I would love to see a test comparing lock time and velocity of the various Krytox formulations (perhaps GPL 205,215, &225 as one base line to test the effect of additive variance on lock time and velocity, and 224, 225, & 226 as another to test the effect of viscosity on lock time and velocity).

Increased lock time (presumably from viscosity being too high or low (Ie. wet drag vs. sludge drag)) would definitely lead many to shoot less accurately. I am not a big velocity at all costs guy, but I'll gladly take all I can get for "free."

Does anybody know what the factory HW lube is exactly?

[nced]

After getting sighted back in, I managed a couple groups on paper under 1" at 25 yards - much better than before - but not as good as my best. Also, to get back on paper, I pretty much had to undo the crazy scope adjustments from yesterday. I think a barrel cleaning might help, its been several hundred shots since the last one.

After that, I went 12/13 on my gamo spinners, and reliably hit the 1" hole on my crow target. I think I'm back to 'as good as it was'. All I did was lube the detent and slightly loosen the pivot bolt...might have been a false alarm, or maybe the detent just needed a little lube to function smoothly.

Thanks again for everyone's input, lots of good data on this thread!

Glad to read the good report! One of the issues I see with the new R9 I've bought is that ALL had a much too tight barrel pivot adjustment out of the box. Even Beeman years ago advised a barrel tension adjustment so a cocked barrel will "just hold" at any position of the barrel swing. For years I've used a tension so the cocked barrel "just falls" from any position of the barrel swing. This adjustment reduces the wear on the barrel pivot shims which also maintains the poi for a longer period of time. As the barrel tension is changed you've probably also noticed that the poi will change laterally. Normally this lateral change is compensated for by normal scope sight-in when before a shooting session, but I still prefer to have less pressure on well lubed pivot bolt and shims for reduced wear. The barrel pivot shims and pivot bolt also needs to be lubricated with a quality grease, and for those that like molly paste I've found it to be EXCELLENT for the barrel pivot assembly. Also....don't forget to lube the rivets connecting the cocking lever to the barrel! I've seen this rive visibly worn in one instance from lack of an occasional couple drops of oil into the joint.

[wimpanzee]

One of the issues I see with the new R9 I've bought is that ALL had a much too tight barrel pivot adjustment out of the box. Even Beeman years ago advised a barrel tension adjustment so a cocked barrel will "just hold" at any position of the barrel swing. For years I've used a tension so the cocked barrel "just falls" from any position of the barrel swing.

I had read you on another post with those descriptions for the barrel pivot. I tried to get close as I could, at a certain angle, it's weight will droop it, but otherwise it just barely stays in place. Any wiggling or shaking of the gun and it slowly pivots itself. It was much, much tighter before that - but not as tight as factory, as I had disassembled once for the PG2 kit, but I had tightened it to near factory pressure then.

Also, when I did the PG2, I painted pretty much every metal contact surface (save the spring stuff, used the PG2 kit lube on that) with molygraph. Is that stuff ok? It's all I could find locally.

[nced]

One of the issues I see with the new R9 I've bought is that ALL had a much too tight barrel pivot adjustment out of the box. Even Beeman years ago advised a barrel tension adjustment so a cocked barrel will "just hold" at any position of the barrel swing. For years I've used a tension so the cocked barrel "just falls" from any position of the barrel swing.

I had read you on another post with those descriptions for the barrel pivot. I tried to get close as I could, at a certain angle, it's weight will droop it, but otherwise it just barely stays in place. Any wiggling or shaking of the gun and it slowly pivots itself. It was much, much tighter before that - but not as tight as factory, as I had disassembled once for the PG2 kit, but I had tightened it to near factory pressure then.

Also, when I did the PG2, I painted pretty much every metal contact surface (save the spring stuff, used the PG2 kit lube on that) with molygraph. Is that stuff ok? It's all I could find locally.

Well....according to the MSDS the stuff has........
Hydrotreated heavy naphthenic distillate.........    70-90%
Lithium 12-hydroxystearate..............................    5-10%
Zinc, dithiophosphate di-C1-14-alkyl ester.......   .5-1.5%
Molybdenum sulfide (same as Disulfide?)...   .2-1%
Graphite............................................................   .2-1%
http://s7d9.scene7.com/is/content/GenuinePartsCompany/683570pdf?$PDF$
Bottom line, IMHO....not the same quality of molly paste from airgun retailers for lubing springers and this is reflected in the low price! Airgun molly paste is 60% molly disulphide and I do know that some use Honda Molly 60 for lubing their springers. I couldn't find the msds for this grease but supposedly the "60" denotes 60% molly.

Also...Pyramyd Air sells Air Venturi Moly Metal-to-Metal Paste, 1 oz
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-venturi-moly-metal-to-metal-paste-1-oz?a=3498
I've never used it but I suspect that it's similar to the Beeman M2M paste of old.
As a side note, applied properly an ounce will do several springers!
 

[wimpanzee]

Well....according to the MSDS the stuff has........
Hydrotreated heavy naphthenic distillate.........    70-90%
Lithium 12-hydroxystearate..............................    5-10%
Zinc, dithiophosphate di-C1-14-alkyl ester.......   .5-1.5%
Molybdenum sulfide (same as Disulfide?)...   .2-1%
Graphite............................................................   .2-1%


Well, when you put it that way, I think I wasted some money. $3 (I was surprised how cheap it was!)...I think I'll live, and order some 60% from Amazon. Thank you.

[nced]

Well....according to the MSDS the stuff has........
Hydrotreated heavy naphthenic distillate.........    70-90%
Lithium 12-hydroxystearate..............................    5-10%
Zinc, dithiophosphate di-C1-14-alkyl ester.......   .5-1.5%
Molybdenum sulfide (same as Disulfide?)...   .2-1%
Graphite............................................................   .2-1%


Well, when you put it that way, I think I wasted some money. $3 (I was surprised how cheap it was!)...I think I'll live, and order some 60% from Amazon. Thank you.

Basically, the Honda Molly paste (M-77) is an assembly lube often used for lubricating auto brake parts. Seems that this stuff is the replacement for the old Honda molly 60 and it may work well if used VERY sparing! I couldn't find a MSDS for the Honda 08798-9010 Moly Paste (M77) but did find the MSDS for the Dow Mollykote M77 and it contains 55%-75% molly which is good.......just use sparingly!
http://site.skygeek.com/MSDS/molykote-77-lubricant-paste-35-oz-assembly.pdf

[wimpanzee]

Well....according to the MSDS the stuff has........
Hydrotreated heavy naphthenic distillate.........    70-90%
Lithium 12-hydroxystearate..............................    5-10%
Zinc, dithiophosphate di-C1-14-alkyl ester.......   .5-1.5%
Molybdenum sulfide (same as Disulfide?)...   .2-1%
Graphite............................................................   .2-1%


Well, when you put it that way, I think I wasted some money. $3 (I was surprised how cheap it was!)...I think I'll live, and order some 60% from Amazon. Thank you.

Basically, the Honda Molly paste (M-77) is an assembly lube often used for lubricating auto brake parts. Seems that this stuff is the replacement for the old Honda molly 60 and it may work well if used VERY sparing! I couldn't find a MSDS for the Honda 08798-9010 Moly Paste (M77) but did find the MSDS for the Dow Mollykote M77 and it contains 55%-75% molly which is good.......just use sparingly!
http://site.skygeek.com/MSDS/molykote-77-lubricant-paste-35-oz-assembly.pdf

Just ordered some M77. Thanks!

[T-Higgs]

Just to chime in on the pivot bolt tension. Yesterday, while shooting my R7 at 34 yards, I noticed that the barrel dropped a bit too freely and that perhaps the bolt had become a bit loose. I gave it a quick tighten up on both sides of the bolt and my next 2/3 shots were off paper by 2.5/3 inches!?  It made me wonder if the pivot bolt should be set with a torque wrench and maintained this way. I will probably do some testing on this but I'm curious. Ed, you do some pretty extensive testing on your equipment. Have you tried specific torque values for the pivot, and I'm curious as to the two headed bolt used by Weihrauch, I assume you would set the specific tension of the bolt from the left side first, with the right side (keeper slotted nut) loose, then tighten the keeper but not necessarily to a specific torque but enough tension to keep the bolt from loosening?

[nced]

Just to chime in on the pivot bolt tension. Yesterday, while shooting my R7 at 34 yards, I noticed that the barrel dropped a bit too freely and that perhaps the bolt had become a bit loose. I gave it a quick tighten up on both sides of the bolt and my next 2/3 shots were off paper by 2.5/3 inches!?  It made me wonder if the pivot bolt should be set with a torque wrench and maintained this way. I will probably do some testing on this but I'm curious. Ed, you do some pretty extensive testing on your equipment. Have you tried specific torque values for the pivot, and I'm curious as to the two headed bolt used by Weihrauch, I assume you would set the specific tension of the bolt from the left side first, with the right side (keeper slotted nut) loose, then tighten the keeper but not necessarily to a specific torque but enough tension to keep the bolt from loosening?

Well.....my pivot tension is set really "scientific like" so the cocked barrel just falls from any point in the swing.......no more exacting than that. While changes of barrel tension will move the poi laterally, I'm really not too concerned as long as the tension remains consistent for a long time and the lateral shifting is minor. Minor windage changes brought on by barrel tension changes are compensated for using the scope turrets before a shooting session. LOL...even atmospheric conditions such as air density and temperature canl affect the poi of those lead badminton birdies called pellets so minor barrel pivot issues aren't a concern.

Concerning adjusting the HW pivot bolts and lock nuts.......I work both against each other. First I adjust the bolt itself for "proper" tension, then I tighten the lock nut VERY firmly. Since tightening the lock nut tight also takes up any slop between the pivot bolt threads and the the threads in the receiver fork the barrel tension is then usually tighter than I like. Then while the lock nut is still tight I'll back off the pivot bolt a tad till the pivot tension is where I like. After that final adjustment my barrel tension is good for a VERY long time. Anywhoo.....with a "till the cocked barrel just falls" tension, if the barrel shims are properly lubricated the wear is VERY SLOW compared to a tighter barrel tension.

By the way, the tension is adjusted till the cocked barrel just falls, not so loose that the "back and forth" barrel movement can be felt. I don't know about the R7 but the R9 spring loaded latching detent maintains barrel registry accurate enough that I as the shooter sitting on a bucket resting the R9 of sticks is the "accuracy limiter"! Here is a target I shot not long ago at 50 yards using my R9 with the mentioned barrel tension setting..........
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
That's 4 JSB Exacts in a 3/8" ctc group with the second shot opening the group to 5/8" ctc. I really don't expect PCP accuracy with my break barrel R9 but I'm satisfied with 1"ish ctc grouping at 50 yards!