GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: jaed.43725 on June 20, 2015, 04:04:02 PM
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There are a lot of exaggerated claims out there about this new rifle. Some are claiming you can ethically take a deer with it. This is false as the .357 does not have enough impact surface for its speed to do so. It will take coyote with head shots and heart shots, and hogs under 75lbs. But even those you are really pushing it and relying totally on accuracy. If you see someone, business, etc spreading rumors about this tell them how they are wrong.
And they are also misleadingly calling the pellets bullets. This has been discussed in depth in these forums and it is concluded that they are pellets no matter how big. Because its fired from an air rifle, not gunpowder.
This gun should not be used during normal hunting for anything larger than a raccoon or nutria. It would be great for squirrel.
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the 200 FPE claimed is inaccurate I take it
"The Benjamin Bulldog delivers consistent five-shot groups of nearly 800 feet per second (FPS) and with a stunning 200 foot pounds of energy (FPE) when using the Benjamin eXTREME™ airgun 145 grain hunting bullet by Nosler®. "
200 is not enough for a deer ? I have no idea as I don't hunt am just curious.
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I dont agree with what your saying unless the gun delivers no where near 200 fpe. I own a benjamin rogue and have seen it and have taken deer, hogs, and other game with the gun. The rogue is the same caliber. I have seen it taken out and have taken out game animals in 100 yards and under...with airguns its all about shot placement, and when taking a doe down I have plenty of energy and no my gun. Same thing for a hog shot placement is key. All headshots taken in the ear.
EDIT: Ian Halford has taken big game in africa with the gun in africa. I dont believe you have your facts straight. Again, shot placement is key
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This is why I said ethically hunting anything larger than a coyote, and even then you must have perfect shot placement. 200fpe on any distance you can shoot a deer in the wild is not going to cut it. Its because its 200fpe at the muzzle. By the time it travels 40 yards to a deer its much less than that. The issue is that when it gets to the deer or yote is that it will not have enough energy to expand the pellet or not completely penetrate. It may go in a deer or pass through a yote, but you just put a hole in the animal and it will run off.
A proper air rifle for deer is going to be .45 or .50.
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"Nuff said!
https://youtu.be/f63XAEIYGtc
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I disagree. A .25 Mrod has been used to ethically take deer. The Bulldog has plenty of power for a 30 yard headshot.
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"Nuff said!
https://youtu.be/f63XAEIYGtc
Those videos are heavily edited. They dont show you the guy that shoots the animal with a .308 right after. If it were someone like Teds Holdover doing it, then it would be legitimate.
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I disagree. A .25 Mrod has been used to ethically take deer. The Bulldog has plenty of power for a 30 yard headshot.
Not ethically. With a very very precise headshot yes it can. This has been discussed many times. I once suggested you could hunt a yote with a .25 magnum springer. And someone showed me all the technical data. And it just wouldnt work. Thats the same as this bulldog. It has a nice niche market for things like bobcats and skunks, but thats it. Realistically this gun should be looked at as being an amazing squirrel gun.
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Those videos are heavily edited. They dont show you the guy that shoots the animal with a .308 right after. If it were someone like Teds Holdover doing it, then it would be legitimate.
This statement totally validates this thread.
And the supporting data/links is a big help too....
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This might put things in a little bit better perspective. White Tail does average about 90lbs to 120lbs. Deer can be very destructive to residential areas and farms. This video was taken in Alabama where they now allow .30 cal. or larger air rifles to be used to hunt deer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i85HCdNErs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i85HCdNErs)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSE1zySpGuo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSE1zySpGuo)
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There are a lot of exaggerated claims out there about this new rifle. Some are claiming you can ethically take a deer with it. This is false as the .357 does not have enough impact surface for its speed to do so. It will take coyote with head shots and heart shots, and hogs under 75lbs. But even those you are really pushing it and relying totally on accuracy. If you see someone, business, etc spreading rumors about this tell them how they are wrong.
I don't think so, they are not wrong.
And they are also misleadingly calling the pellets bullets. This has been discussed in depth in these forums and it is concluded that they are pellets no matter how big. Because its fired from an air rifle, not gunpowder.
We try really hard to avoid a couple of terms, because of that if I say them they cause issues. Bullets are bullets. If you shoot them from an air rifle they are still bullets. Maybe you should review the H&N Rabbit Magnum and tell me if it is a bullet or a pellet?
This gun should not be used during normal hunting for anything larger than a raccoon or nutria. It would be great for squirrel.
My .177 Diana model 36 that shoots about 14 foot pounds just kills the heck out of squirrels at the ranges where I can hit a marble. Killed a young ground hog from about 25 yards this spring and he did not move an inch from where I hit him.
I don't think you understand how air gun hunters operate. I don't think you know what you are talking about. Suppose I had a high end .22 rifle that could shoot dime sized groups at fifty yards. Suppose I decided that the only shot I would take was a head shot, quartering away at fifty yards or less behind the ear, from a rest, in a stand. Would I be able to take that deer humanely?
That is the thing you are not getting. Air gun hunters understand the limits of their equipment. They know what they can do and they do what they know is possible.
You make the assumption that they will take poor shots. I think you might be wrong there. NO OFFENSE INTENDED... REALLY.
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Those videos are heavily edited. They dont show you the guy that shoots the animal with a .308 right after. If it were someone like Teds Holdover doing it, then it would be legitimate.
This statement totally validates this thread.
And the supporting data/links is a big help too....
I'd be happy to view the supporting data and links...
This really crosses a line. You are saying that people who don't agree with you resort to shooting things with a .308 after they show you they have killed game with an air rifle? Really? Are you really going there?
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This might put things in a little bit better perspective. White Tail does average about 90lbs to 120lbs. Deer can be very destructive to residential areas and farms. This video was taken in Alabama where they now allow .30 cal. or larger air rifles to be used to hunt deer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i85HCdNErs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i85HCdNErs)
That goes perfect with what I said, that you must have an absolutely perfect shot with a .357 air rifle for something like deer. Headshots are preferred. Its the old adage of just because you can.
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There are a lot of exaggerated claims out there about this new rifle. Some are claiming you can ethically take a deer with it. This is false as the .357 does not have enough impact surface for its speed to do so. It will take coyote with head shots and heart shots, and hogs under 75lbs. But even those you are really pushing it and relying totally on accuracy. If you see someone, business, etc spreading rumors about this tell them how they are wrong.
And they are also misleadingly calling the pellets bullets. This has been discussed in depth in these forums and it is concluded that they are pellets no matter how big. Because its fired from an air rifle, not gunpowder.
This gun should not be used during normal hunting for anything larger than a raccoon or nutria. It would be great for squirrel.
I don't think you understand how air gun hunters operate. I don't think you know what you are talking about. Suppose I had a high end .22 rifle that could shoot dime sized groups at fifty yards. Suppose I decided that the only shot I would take was a head shot, quartering away at fifty yards or less behind the ear, from a rest, in a stand. Would I be able to take that deer humanely?
That is the thing you are not getting. Air gun hunters understand the limits of their equipment. They know what they can do and they do what they know is possible.
You make the assumption that they will take poor shots. I think you might be wrong there. NO OFFENSE INTENDED... REALLY.
I more than understand air rifle hunting. And I understand that the claims of this rifle are exaggerated. We can hunt deer with a .22 in NC. But its very very advised not to.
Its not the assumption that someone wants to make a poor shot. Its when things just dont work right. And say you miss that perfect head shot and only get some neck, then you have a bleeding running deer.
No offense intended on shredding your post....really.
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Those videos are heavily edited. They dont show you the guy that shoots the animal with a .308 right after. If it were someone like Teds Holdover doing it, then it would be legitimate.
This statement totally validates this thread.
And the supporting data/links is a big help too....
I'd be happy to view the supporting data and links...
This really crosses a line. You are saying that people who don't agree with you resort to shooting things with a .308 after they show you they have killed game with an air rifle? Really? Are you really going there?
I will try and dig up some data. There is a thread here all about why a .25 springer should not be used on yotes. It has a lot of info. And notice they didnt show the head of the animal. Ya, a powder burner is why.
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A reminder guys keep it civil or it goes
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There are a lot of exaggerated claims out there about this new rifle. Some are claiming you can ethically take a deer with it. This is false as the .357 does not have enough impact surface for its speed to do so. It will take coyote with head shots and heart shots, and hogs under 75lbs. But even those you are really pushing it and relying totally on accuracy. If you see someone, business, etc spreading rumors about this tell them how they are wrong.
I don't think so, they are not wrong. - They are only trying to sell a product. Thus they make outrageous claims, just like that 1500 fps .177 springer. Ya, think about that.
And they are also misleadingly calling the pellets bullets. This has been discussed in depth in these forums and it is concluded that they are pellets no matter how big. Because its fired from an air rifle, not gunpowder.
We try really hard to avoid a couple of terms, because of that if I say them they cause issues. Bullets are bullets. If you shoot them from an air rifle they are still bullets. Maybe you should review the H&N Rabbit Magnum and tell me if it is a bullet or a pellet? - It is still a pellet. A bullet is defined by being fired from a FIREARM using a cartridge. If you take the bullet out of a cartridge or round as its sometimes called and fire it from an air rifle, it is then a pellet.
This gun should not be used during normal hunting for anything larger than a raccoon or nutria. It would be great for squirrel.
My .177 Diana model 36 that shoots about 14 foot pounds just kills the heck out of squirrels at the ranges where I can hit a marble. Killed a young ground hog from about 25 yards this spring and he did not move an inch from where I hit him. - Squirrels still run around a lot even after being shot with a .22 PCP.
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This might put things in a little bit better perspective. White Tail does average about 90lbs to 120lbs. Deer can be very destructive to residential areas and farms. This video was taken in Alabama where they now allow .30 cal. or larger air rifles to be used to hunt deer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i85HCdNErs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i85HCdNErs)
That goes perfect with what I said, that you must have an absolutely perfect shot with a .357 air rifle for something like deer. Headshots are preferred. Its the old adage of just because you can.
Really, it is not about "just because you can". It is about what can be accomplished with minimal resources and someone willing to limit himself to doing the right thing by the game animal.
Let me relate a story to you. When I was a child my step-dad bought me a bow. I wanted one so badly. I shot that bow for ten years. Then I got another and it was 30 pounds! I shot that bow for a couple of years. Then I was 14. "What do you want for your birthday son?" Well dad, I want that red wing hunter in the hunting club store. So I had it. I had my 43 pound pull, Red Wing Hunter.
"But Dad, now I want to hunt deer with my bow?" Dad said that was idiotic. Dad said you can not humanely kill deer with a bow. Thankfully my friend's father was a Virginia Game Warden named Dupree. That game warden took my dad to a 20 yard target. He taped a dollar bill on that target and he told my dad, "Here is the deal. Every time I hit George, you give me a dollar. Every time I miss, I give you a dollar." Two hours later he was still taking dollars from my dad. True story.
That winter I killed my first deer with a 27 foot pound weapon at seven yards. Before you judge, think about it. People have taken game a thousand different ways. It is the nature of man to be a predator with respect to other species. Doing it efficiently is really important. It is especially important it that game might escape. My point there is that, If you know what you are doing, and you limit yourself to the proper use of your weapon, you can humanely take deer with a club.
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GTA RULE #-2- Please have respect for differences in opinions with your fellow GTA members on your forums. After all, the forum is all about opinions
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I will try and dig up some data. There is a thread here all about why a .25 springer should not be used on yotes. It has a lot of info. And notice they didnt show the head of the animal. Ya, a powder burner is why.
You know this because you were there?
Edited for a unallowable topic.
You can kill anything with an ice pick all you have to do is know how to use it.
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This might put things in a little bit better perspective. White Tail does average about 90lbs to 120lbs. Deer can be very destructive to residential areas and farms. This video was taken in Alabama where they now allow .30 cal. or larger air rifles to be used to hunt deer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i85HCdNErs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i85HCdNErs)
That goes perfect with what I said, that you must have an absolutely perfect shot with a .357 air rifle for something like deer. Headshots are preferred. Its the old adage of just because you can.
Really, it is not about "just because you can". It is about what can be accomplished with minimal resources and someone willing to limit himself to doing the right thing by the game animal.
Let me relate a story to you. When I was a child my step-dad bought me a bow. I wanted one so badly. I shot that bow for ten years. Then I got another and it was 30 pounds! I shot that bow for a couple of years. Then I was 14. "What do you want for your birthday son?" Well dad, I want that red wing hunter in the hunting club store. So I had it. I had my 43 pound pull, Red Wing Hunter.
"But Dad, now I want to hunt deer with my bow?" Dad said that was idiotic. Dad said you can not humanely kill deer with a bow. Thankfully my friend's father was a Virginia Game Warden named Dupree. That game warden took my dad to a 20 yard target. He taped a dollar bill on that target and he told my dad, "Here is the deal. Every time I hit George, you give me a dollar. Every time I miss, I give you a dollar." Two hours later he was still taking dollars from my dad. True story.
That winter I killed my first deer with a 27 foot pound weapon at seven yards. Before you judge, think about it. People have taken game a thousand different ways. It is the nature of man to be a predator with respect to other species. Doing it efficiently is really important. It is especially important it that game might escape. My point there is that, If you know what you are doing, and you limit yourself to the proper use of your weapon, you can humanely take deer with a club.
Your story perfectly shows my point. Most states have limits of 35 pound draw. So why you may have pulled it off, that does not mean you should have. Thanks for the reinforcement.
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Now you guys are cross breeding archery into the airgun world. Yes there are a lot of similarities...shot placement along with accuracy and the angle of the shot is important on both.
With today's bows you dont need the 70 lbs bow...cams have become so efficient. Im going to stay out of the archery world because we are an airgun forum. PS...I also own an FX Indy that shoots arrows..and have killed hogs with it...best of both worlds.
Hunting with airguns and bow you must understand ballistics...you cant compare them to the power of powder burners in terms of the way they give off energy.
The PE from bows are used to crush bone. heavier the arrow; dont have to worry about bone or shot placement. Same with air rifles...heavier the pellet the more bone breaking power it has. Also, the way energy is adsorbed through the target is completely different. Arrows energy is sliced. Pellets but holes through target...along with a lot of hemorrhage. Cant be compared to one of a firearm...but yet an arrow and pellet can do there job.
Remember shot placement is key. Also, the hunter must be ethical.
To say that it can't but there are proven videos...and you say that there edited heavily is obscured. Proof was given but you denied the proof. This isnt an opinion. It's a fact a bulldog or rogue can kill a deer...has been done...
Youd just not rather see the obvious...want me to bring you to georgia or texas and go hunt some monster hogs with my rogue???
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This might put things in a little bit better perspective. White Tail does average about 90lbs to 120lbs. Deer can be very destructive to residential areas and farms. This video was taken in Alabama where they now allow .30 cal. or larger air rifles to be used to hunt deer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i85HCdNErs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i85HCdNErs)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSE1zySpGuo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSE1zySpGuo)
I seriously tried to watch that guys videos. But he just made me mad with his outright ignorance of air rifles and his planting of pine trees.
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Now you guys are cross breeding archery into the airgun world. Yes there are a lot of similarities...shot placement along with accuracy and the angle of the shot is important on both.
With today's bows you dont need the 70 lbs bow...cams have become so efficient. Im going to stay out of the archery world because we are an airgun forum. PS...I also own an FX Indy that shoots arrows..and have killed hogs with it...best of both worlds.
Hunting with airguns and bow you must understand ballistics...you cant compare them to the power of powder burners in terms of the way they give off energy.
The PE from bows are used to crush bone. heavier the arrow; dont have to worry about bone or shot placement. Same with air rifles...heavier the pellet the more bone breaking power it has. Also, the way energy is adsorbed through the target is completely different. Arrows energy is sliced. Pellets but holes through target...along with a lot of hemorrhage. Cant be compared to one of a firearm...but yet an arrow and pellet can do there job.
Remember shot placement is key. Also, the hunter must be ethical.
To say that it can't but there are proven videos...and you say that there edited heavily is obscured. Proof was given but you denied the proof. This isnt an opinion. It's a fact a bulldog or rogue can kill a deer...has been done...
Youd just not rather see the obvious...want me to bring you to georgia or texas and go hunt some monster hogs with my rogue???
Now you are misreading what I said. I suggest you go back and read again.
I hope you realize the cam is only there for the let off draw weight. It still needs to be of a certain draw weight to begin with. And my state says 35 lbs for a compound, but that is very frowned upon and they say you should at least shoot 55 lbs.
I denied the Crosman video proof absolutely. Companies always hype their stuff. Just like that 1500fps .177 springer.
And I didnt say it could not be done, I said it should not be done because its such a fine line that you have absolutely no room for error. Even the slightest wind mistake will make a deer just runaway wounded. Now in a survival situation then do it. But given the choice, be smart and get a .45 at least if you plan on hunting anything larger than a coyote with a headshot.
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This might put things in a little bit better perspective. White Tail does average about 90lbs to 120lbs. Deer can be very destructive to residential areas and farms. This video was taken in Alabama where they now allow .30 cal. or larger air rifles to be used to hunt deer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i85HCdNErs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i85HCdNErs)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSE1zySpGuo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSE1zySpGuo)
any center fire rifle is legal to take deer with in Alabama. Even 22-250. But every airgunner should do their part to progress airgunning and not shed a bad light on our sport. Unfortunately, people have this idea that whenever anything living is shot in the head, it becomes immediately motionless and dead. Like in the movies. Remember how .25 auto lost popularity because criminals shot in the head with a .25 auto would sieze and die on the way to the hospital? Now anyone with a little sense knows a bad guy siezing on the ground is far from being a threat anymore. But that still doesn't help the case for the .25 auto. So its really just up to the shooter. If I used a low powered gun to hunt with, I wouldn't make videos or go out of my way to talk about it much just because I know it works and I don't care if anyone knows it or not, and don't want to risk shedding a bad light on our sport.
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This might put things in a little bit better perspective. White Tail does average about 90lbs to 120lbs. Deer can be very destructive to residential areas and farms. This video was taken in Alabama where they now allow .30 cal. or larger air rifles to be used to hunt deer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i85HCdNErs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i85HCdNErs)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSE1zySpGuo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSE1zySpGuo)
any center fire rifle is legal to take deer with in Alabama. Even 22-250. But every airgunner should do their part to progress airgunning and not shed a bad light on our sport. Unfortunately, people have this idea that whenever anything living is shot in the head, it becomes immediately motionless and dead. Like in the movies. Remember how .25 auto lost popularity because criminals shot in the head with a .25 auto would sieze and die on the way to the hospital? Now anyone with a little sense knows a bad guy siezing on the ground is far from being a threat anymore. But that still doesn't help the case for the .25 auto. So its really just up to the shooter. If I used a low powered gun to hunt with, I wouldn't make videos or go out of my way to talk about it much just because I know it works and I don't care if anyone knows it or not, and don't want to risk shedding a bad light on our sport.
Exactly. Thats why I started this thread. I dont want people to go out there and think they can do whatever and give the community a bad name. I wanted to raise awareness.
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I certainly understand and respect that. The fact is there are a lot of idiots out there, and many of them own guns and use them irresponsibly! Do I think I should be able to shoot an airgun in any way and in any location and at any target I see fit? Yes. Do I think that 90% of airgun owners should be able to have the same freedom? Absolutely not! But we have this thing called equality, and everyone has to be treated equally.....
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I think the "misinformation" or as I prefer, the fantasy, that every shot is going to be perfect is the real conceit in airgun "hunting". Ethical hunters have a responsibility & the way I see it, they're not holding up their part by kidding themselves that every shot they take is going to be a perfect shot. "Shot placement" isn't worth huey if it isn't executed. Simple to say/write but the reality isn't pretty when the vaunted "shot placement" goes wrong. Imagine. Just try to open your mind to the possibility, nay, the certainty, that every shot is NOT going to be perfectly placed. Try to imagine the consequences. Hunters have a responsibility & short of a survival situation, it's unethical to think otherwise. I'll admit, I've done some stupid things when I was younger & dumber but I'd really like to think I'm older & wiser now. Just hope I'm not kidding myself.
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No matter what I believe, or do, or say, etc. And no matter why. And no matter the facts I have to back my stance on the matter, there will be folks that disagree, and some, vehemently. And for different reasons and/or more reasons than you can think of. Your right may be my wrong and so on and so forth. We all hope that folks will do what WE think is right. It don't always work out that way. I just hope folks stay within the laws of their area and that they take WAY more care about what they post (pictures/videos/stories) on the internet.
Richard
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Wow. Exaggerated claims for an air rifle ? In today's world it's called marketing. "There is nothing new under the sun".
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I think this part of your post is where the hiccup is ..
Some are claiming you can ethically take a deer with it. This is false as the .357 does not have enough impact surface for its speed to do so.
one can ethically take a deer with it.
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I think this part of your post is where the hiccup is ..
Some are claiming you can ethically take a deer with it. This is false as the .357 does not have enough impact surface for its speed to do so.
one can ethically take a deer with it.
Not ethically on a normal basis. In a survival situation, yes. But to just hunt a deer with it is foolish. Now it is awesome for raccoons.
Know your equipment and don't try to be cool is what'll get you through.
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I'd suggest you read some of the writings of renowned airgunner Tom Gaylord on the topic of big game airgun hunting.
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2015/02/hunting-with-big-bore-airguns-what-to-expect/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2015/02/hunting-with-big-bore-airguns-what-to-expect/)
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/)
Long story short: focusing solely on FPE in big game airguns is misleading. Think of it more like bowhunting, where you need to get close for humane kills, and you're relying on the large diameter of the wound path to lead to rapid bleed-out for easy tracking. No one considers a bow throwing a 100 FPE arrow underpowered for deer-sized game. Also, don't expect game to drop at the shot like a shotgun slug or .30-06 hit.
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The .357 because it does not have sufficient energy for humane kills unless it's a perfect shot. It does not create a large enough wound for an ethical kill. The facts are that in survival mode it will work. But for regular hunting it's just not the right thing to use. If you want to use an air rifle to hunt large game then get a .45 or .50.
A bow and arrow uses a very large and razor sharp broadhead. This can not be compared to an air rifle. Especially not a .357 which is the equivalent to shooting a deer with a field tip.
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While I agree that using "not enough gun" for the job is foolish.... and I also agree that not every shot is perfect.... a blanket statement that a .357 cal airgun cannot be used to ethically take a deer is ludicrous.... There are many .357 rifles that are well over 200 FPE, some approaching 300 FPE, and a .38 Special is in the low 200s.... Most people are heavier than most deer, and I shudder to think how many people have been killed with a .38 Special, with just one shot to the chest.... I happen to feel that 1 FPE per pound of body weight is a bare minimum to take game, and that 2 FPE per pound is preferred.... However, there are .357 airguns that can easily do that.... Is a .45 or .50 cal "better" for deer?.... Probably.... Is a .357 producing over 200 FPE on impact "enough" gun?.... Based on the hundreds taken by that combination, I would have to say yes....
Whether or not the Bulldog can produce 200 FPE downrange, with enough accuracy to do the job is a completely separate argument.... I wouldn't think twice about a heart/lung shot with the new .357 Slayer, using a 139 gr. FN at over 250 FPE, on a deer out to 100 yards.... 191 FPE at 200 yards would be more than adequate at half that range.... Your average "off the shelf" .45 or .50 cal Korean gun can't come close to that downrange....
Bob
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;D jaed you are playing both sides of the fence.
it either CAN or CANNOT make ethical kills ... with any other weapon I can make a bad shot and not get an ethical kill.
not trying to argue the point, however it can as opposed to my 5 fpe 177 that cannot make an ethical kill on a deer.
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Every airgun is over rated by most all the manufactors, as far as what they can do and what we do with them is what remains ethical, to call out one company over the others remains a mystery to me sir. David
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I have hunted for 14 years and taken many deer in that time, as well as many other pests and game animals. I have hit deer with a 12 gauge shotgun and slug and .50 muzzleloader that have run for a long ways, and I have also made shots where they fall in their tracks. The problem with PB, especially hard recoiling PB and somewhat inaccurate guns like a shotgun, is that it is very difficult to make the perfect shot, much more difficult than with an air gun.
I started bow hunting at 12 years old with a 40lb compound bow, and I never doubted its ability to humanely take game. Our ancestors relied on hunting to live, and they took enough game to survive with primitive bows and spears. I have a family member that took a 45lb male coyote at ~100 yards with a subsonic .22PB, want to talk foot pounds? If SHTF and all I had to hunt with was my Condor, I can promise you that there would be deer roasting over a fire within 48 hours, and I would live on with a full belly. Mind you, this is at 80 foot pounds and not 150-200fpe. You don't need excessive power, and you can't make a dead deer dead-er.
It's not for everyone, but if you are comfortable and capable, why not? There aren't many people who get into air guns for the cool factor and just drop $1k into a gun, plus more for accessories, and don't practice adequately with their equipment...unlike the PB world, where there are plenty of guys who only fire their weapons during hunting season and they sit in a cabinet the rest of the year. I know a lot of those guys too, and I see their success rate (very low) with their expensive gear while we fill all our tags with our "inferior" black powder guns every year.
If you aren't capable, don't do it, but if you and your gear are then more power to you.
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That winter I killed my first deer with a 27 foot pound weapon at seven yards. Before you judge, think about it. People have taken game a thousand different ways. It is the nature of man to be a predator with respect to other species. Doing it efficiently is really important. It is especially important it that game might escape. My point there is that, If you know what you are doing, and you limit yourself to the proper use of your weapon, you can humanely take deer with a club.
Your story perfectly shows my point. Most states have limits of 35 pound draw. So why you may have pulled it off, that does not mean you should have. Thanks for the reinforcement.
It was a 43 pound pull bow. Sooo... easily within the law given that my draw length is 30.5 inches. My story does not support your arguments in the least. It documents that sometimes even fathers have stereotypical ideas which do not reflect reality.
I argued that you can humanely take deer with a club. My point was that what matters is the person using the tool. Also the idea that we all have preconceived notions of what is humane. I took several deer with my bow over those years. The least one ran was a heart shot. Deer went 25 yards and piled up behind a log it jumped. Was that humane? The guy who is taking his favorite .308 into the woods and who is barely able to hold a five inch group at a hundred yards because he never shoots more than a box of ammo through that weapon every year is STILL able to stop a deer within a few steps at fifty yards. Is that guy going to agree with me that the one shot with a bow which ran 70 yards before piling up was killed humanely, he won't if he argues the argument you are trying to make.
I have to be very honest with you when I say I could easliy take that .357 and do much more "humane" kills on deer with it at the same ranges I used my bow at. Just for the record, that limit was 30 yards.
I'm dropping out of this discussion because these kinds of arguments always end the same way. You have your argument and you are not hearing the opinions of the other posters. For you it is a debate. Maybe you should review some of Manny's posts, he regularly takes boar with his air rifles. I don't believe any of them were 200 FPE guns.
Anyway. Have a great day.
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I can fix a argument gentlemen, we all have our opinions to say the least if they are not discussed Civilly I will end it. David
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I have seen people kill mature deer with a .22lr, and it dropped in its tracts.
Bottom line.....IF YOU DON'T THINK YOU CAN DO IT, THEN DON'T! But don't tell me what u can and can't do just because you think you can't. People that have hunted all their lives that have done more with far less.
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I have seen people kill mature deer with a .22lr, and it dropped in its tracts.
Bottom line.....IF YOU DON'T THINK YOU CAN DO IT, THEN DON'T! But don't tell me what u can and can't do just because you think you can't. People that have hunted all their lives that have done more with far less.
Once saw a soldier take a goat on the big island with a knife, a Gerber Mark IV if I remember correctly. Wasn't pretty but he jumped from an overhang about fifteen feet to the goat... sooo... It was as humane as you can do with a knife. He walked away. The goat? We ate him.
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We are in a new era. Not only with kick butt airguns available now, but in our thinking of what it takes to kill game.
The OLD DAYS: Lets take any High Powered rifle round. Lets say 30-06. Slip in a Soft Point round. Now shoot a deer at 75 yards through the lungs. The round slips through (too easily) the ribcage (which are NOT TOUGH at all and are thin) and penetrates both lungs. The deer kicks and runs off a 100 yards and expires. Now, did he die from the 2800 FPE impact (not factual either) or did he die because he SUFFOCATED?
The NEW DAYS: Lets take the puny 170 FPE 357 cal airgun shooting hard NOSLER BT and launch one into the same deer example given above (lungs at 75 yards) The deer does the same kick and run and he collapses also at whatever range. Lets also say 100 yards. Now, did this deer die from the 120+ FPE (guesstimate) or did he die because he also SUFFOCATED? Believe me, he wasn't shocked to death by the lowly 120+ FPE.......lol!
The answer is easy, both animals died because their lungs had a hole in them and they suffocated. This simple bit of knowledge should be more accepted and understood than what it is. People know it, but they still believe that this shot has to happen with a ubber powerful gun making 3000 fps.
The OLD DAYS: In this case, the shooter would now go buy a 300 Winchester Magnum because he believes the 30-06 isn't powerful enough (yeah, this is a REAL EXAMPLE). Not only that, but he now wants heavier bullets (180-200 gr instead of 165s) going even faster because that equates to MORE FPE which in his mind equates to a QUICKER KILL. He thinks the deer ran too far and that the 06 is inadequate. This same hunter would then next year shoot another deer with the new 300 Winch through the shoulders and complain that all the meat is destroyed......................DUUUUUUUH!
The NEW DAYS: This hunter is satisfied because we have now come to a better understanding that it doesn't so much take all out FPE then it does HITTING/PUNCTURING the vitals. And lets all please understand that fact that it takes FPS to give an object FPE so both are needed. He would then next year become very confident that his airgun is sufficient to get the job done. Heck, he too might buy a more powerful airgun such as a 45 cal. Just for the heck of doing it. But he is still using an airgun. But he knows his 357 can take deer.
We have found over time that it takes roughly 6 FPE at the Point of Impact to kill a squirrel and that it will more than likely penetrate both sides of the skull. IT DOES NOT TAKE A 17 HMR or 22 LR or 22 MAG or 223 or even the lowly 22-250 to do this. Airgunners work with a minimum amount of FPE and a maximum amount of accuracy to get the job done that we need to get done (hunting game efficiently).
No animal/man/insect/mammal/fish can survive a BRAIN/LUNG/HEART PUNCTURE! Not EXPLOSION, but, PUNCTURE! Our thinking of 2000-3000 FPE to kill a deer or hog is so Neanderthalic (no insult intended). Yotes IMO are much tougher than DEER and i've lung shot them and they run the same as if I'd done it with a 223. The end result is that they die cause i hit the vitals with enough energy to penetrate. I've even broken the spine with a 257 airgun shooting bullets and it penetrate through and through and he died pretty quickly. Not because my airgun made 1500 FPE (it doesn't) but because i did SEVERE damage to the spinal chord and the major vein that runs along its path (accuracy). Deer flesh around the lungs area is super thin and we have been led to believe that it takes massive amounts of power to penetrate this area (not true at all). A airgun can also penetrate both shoulders (BONE to BONE). I've even killed a nice little piggy with my 7mm airgun that makes only 235 FPE. The shot was high in the breast of the hog and it penetrated the top of the heart and exited the lung/rib cage. Again, the projectile had enough FPE/FPS and accuracy to make the kill and the bullet still penetrated over roughly 15" of pig.
In this argument, i think its more that the OLD WAYS OF THINKIN just don't want to accept fact and change. We are still discovering the limits of airguns and their effects on game....................
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We are in a new era. Not only with kick butt airguns available now, but in our thinking of what it takes to kill game.
In this argument, i think its more that the OLD WAYS OF THINKIN just don't want to accept fact and change. We are still discovering the limits of airguns and their effects on game....................
You have done a very good job of explaining reality, Obi Wan. Thank you. A .243 doing 2750 fps with hollow point is just about the ticket for that lung shot. It will open a hole so big the deer can't breath to run... You won't get any ribs from that deer though.
Really your post really says it all.
The most telling shot you can take on a deer with a broad head is side on just a couple of inches behind the elbow. Clips the heart and the lungs at the same time. Any deer hit that way will stop as fast as if shot by any rifle, except maybe a .50 cal. The heart bleeds into the chest cavity and the lungs are sucking that up. End result sudden death. As humane as you can do it with a bow.
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If I was to hunt Deer with a BullDog I would use the 82gr or 93gr EPP/UG.
The BullDog isn't really a 200 FPE gun, those are Hollywood figures.
The Bulldog shoots the 82gr EPP/UG and the JSB pellet at 900 fps for a 150 FPE, the EPP/UG with the sharp front band will cut a nice hole into those deer lungs, as mentioned before deer is a pretty soft animal
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If I was to hunt Deer with a BullDog I would use the 82gr or 93gr EPP/UG.
The BullDog isn't really a 200 FPE gun, those are Hollywood figures.
The Bulldog shoots the 82gr EPP/UG and the JSB pellet at 900 fps for a 150 FPE, the EPP/UG with the sharp front band will cut a nice hole into those deer lungs, as mentioned before deer is a pretty soft animal
I agree. My rogue is getting about 165 fpe and deer rib are like tooth picks...