GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: Methuselah on April 27, 2015, 07:11:44 PM
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I'm trying to be fair and objective and would like the groups opinion about how objective Umarex has been in return.
Initial detail that prompted me to ask Umarex for parts is on two separate messages within this thread: http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=86273.msg831158#msg831158 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=86273.msg831158#msg831158)
Essentially Umarex tells me the warranty is void because the rifle was over lubricated, and the rear sight is now broken too.
I'll upload a few more pictures below, none of which seem to show up any excess lube and in the pictures I have the rear sight looks OK too (The stock might have protected it better in shipping if they didn't require it be removed before sending it in?).
My take is this: Simplest explanation is almost always the correct one. To me this means given QC seems decent to good at Diana, there is likely only ONE root cause behind all the symptoms. Lack of lubrication, too much lubrication, a bad seal --- and all of these fall into the category of factory defect in my opinion.
I see no excess lubrication in the pictures. Also can't imagine anyone doing that and then immediately returning it (manufacturing stamp is DE 2014, store displayed it 1/10/15, and I purchased it on 3/20/15. So, it appears to be a new and perhaps unfired Christmas gift). What I didn't see was much protrusion of the breach seal. Maybe 5 to 10 thousandths, and again, it isn't wet looking from lubrication.
It is my suspicion the seal protrusion is marginal, the piston is slamming and that vibration sometimes popped open the breach, shook the screws loose, and caused the front sight to split at the bottom seam and continue to crack and loosen thereafter. If the rear sight is broken I think it was either shipping, or handling on their end because I bench fired it one time since the picture showing it was OK. I suppose a damaged or undersized main seal could also be a single-defect item that could cause the same symptoms?
So Umarex insists it's not a warranty issue and initially wanted me to pay $187.46 for repairs. Before I shipped it they had agreed to send me parts but asked me to ship it to them after I said the seal was on the ground last time the breach popped open making me concerned the piston was slamming the end of the chamber. They agreed to cover shipping both ways. It is my impression they had not disassembled it before they quoted repairs.
Am I jumping to conclusions? Is there something I should have done or something I did that I shouldn't have that could make the breach keep popping open or the screws to keep coming loose (I did keep tightening them but used no Loctite as they directed). Is there a better explanation or idea of what is causing my issues? Am I being too stubborn insisting that only one problem is at the root of all symptoms?
Am I wrong to ask Umarex to cover repair under warranty now that they had decided I should ship it to them instead of them just shipping me a front sight and new breach seal? (It came with all paperwork and original box.)
Sorry so long, this has been going on since I got it...
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How's the piston seal? How many times was it dry fired as a display? Open it up.
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How's the piston seal? How many times was it dry fired as a display? Open it up.
Once by the kid in the store, presumably just before cracking the sight hood in the Stockroom (I heard him do it).
Umarex has it now and the rest of what's going on is partly in the other thread (again, sorry it is so long a read)
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I am not a Umarex warranty fan, not because I have dealt with them, but because of what I have read about them. I will not say anything bad about them, because I try to give everyone the benefit of a doubt. Sometimes I also find it best to talk to them over the phone as opposed to email, because the written word may not always come across as one intended. I use to own 2 D-34's. One was a .22 that I should have returned, but instead I sent to a professional tuner. The barrel had to be hand lapped in 2 different places before the pellet got to the choke. $300 later I had a lights out D-34. It also had a 3 part spring in my .22 & a 4 part spring in my .177 after 1 months use. I must confess I do miss my D-34s they are awesome rifles, but I would prefer to skip the warranty and tune them myself. (The gentleman who tuned my rifles actually spent 2 hours with me and showed me how to tear them down, what to do, and how to put it back together. As long as I do not mess with the trigger, I now feel qualified to do my own tunes on the D-34 & MROD.
As a side note: A warranty is only as good as the person who stands behind it, and sometimes only as good as the paper it is printed on. >:(
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I am not a Umarex warranty fan, not because I have dealt with them, but because of what I have read about them. I will not say anything bad about them, because I try to give everyone the benefit of a doubt. Sometimes I also find it best to talk to them over the phone as opposed to email, because the written word may not always come across as one intended. I use to own 2 D-34's. One was a .22 that I should have returned, but instead I sent to a professional tuner. The barrel had to be hand lapped in 2 different places before the pellet got to the choke. $300 later I had a lights out D-34. It also had a 3 part spring in my .22 & a 4 part spring in my .177 after 1 months use. I must confess I do miss my D-34s they are awesome rifles, but I would prefer to skip the warranty and tune them myself. (The gentleman who tuned my rifles actually spent 2 hours with me and showed me how to tear them down, what to do, and how to put it back together. As long as I do not mess with the trigger, I now feel qualified to do my own tunes on the D-34 & MROD.
Jesse,
Thanks for responding. Sorry you too had factory issues with your Diana 34's.
I did speak with them, at least three different people and it has been "kicked upstairs to a manager" that will call me back yesterday to let me know what they plan on doing.
As a side note: A warranty is only as good as the person who stands behind it, and sometimes only as good as the paper it is printed on. >:(
I reckon the real issue is you don't hear about the problems because folks return them instead of complaining about them, send them on to a tuner, or abandon the warranty. But that is the purpose of this post --- to find out if other folks who feel this is a warranty issue can offer me some advice as to how to convey this to Umarex!
Thanks again Jesse!
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How's the piston seal? How many times was it dry fired as a display? Open it up.
Once by the kid in the store, presumably just before cracking the sight hood in the Stockroom (I heard him do it).
Umarex has it now and the rest of what's going on is partly in the other thread (again, sorry it is so long a read)
That would have killed the deal for me right there. Was it a display rifle? If so, no telling how many times it was dry fired by uninformed customers & staff.
Hopefully Umarex will take care of you, but I would have walked away after the dry fire and incident in the stock room. Good luck with it.
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How's the piston seal? How many times was it dry fired as a display? Open it up.
Once by the kid in the store, presumably just before cracking the sight hood in the Stockroom (I heard him do it).
Umarex has it now and the rest of what's going on is partly in the other thread (again, sorry it is so long a read)
That would have killed the deal for me right there. Was it a display rifle? If so, no telling how many times it was dry fired by uninformed customers & staff.
Hopefully Umarex will take care of you, but I would have walked away after the dry fire and incident in the stock room. Good luck with it.
Long story (nobody would bother to read). Not a display, almost certainly a Christmas return. Discounted, but no refunds I expected MUCH better than I got.
I think the breach seal was bad, but when all the consequences snowballed & I got concerned the piston had been slamming the end of the chamber I (foolishly?) took Umarex at their word they would fix it.
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I'm having trouble following your story. You said they denied your claim because the gun was over lubed. Did you lube it?
You said you bought the gun new. But then you allude to a returned Christmas gift? I don't understand. Did you buy it new, or used?
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I'm having trouble following your story. You said they denied your claim because the gun was over lubed. Did you lube it?
Thank you for trying!!! I know it's a long, tough read. There was no smoke or evidence of burning any lube. Pics show breach choke, seal, and muzzle dry, not shiny, and no - I did not lube anything. I just elaborated a little in the linked thread (it has other pictures too)
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=86273.msg844273#msg844273 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=86273.msg844273#msg844273)
You said you bought the gun new. But then you allude to a returned Christmas gift? I don't understand. Did you buy it new, or used?
I honestly think from the timing it HAD to be a returned Christmas gift, likely unfired, sold discounted. Probably needed floss behind breach seal, but problems and consequences made me decide to trust Umarex.
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I'm having trouble following your story. You said they denied your claim because the gun was over lubed. Did you lube it?
Thank you for trying!!! I know it's a long, tough read. There was no smoke or evidence of burning any lube. Pics show breach choke, seal, and muzzle dry, not shiny, and no - I did not lube anything. I just elaborated a little in the linked thread (it has other pictures too)
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=86273.msg844273#msg844273 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=86273.msg844273#msg844273)
You said you bought the gun new. But then you allude to a returned Christmas gift? I don't understand. Did you buy it new, or used?
I honestly think from the timing it HAD to be a returned Christmas gift, likely unfired, sold discounted. Probably needed floss behind breach seal, but problems and consequences made me decide to trust Umarex.
Now I'm getting confused...where did you buy the gun...from an authorized dealer or a flea market? How did Umarex determine that is was "over lubed" has it gone back to them for inspection? Inquiring minds want to know ;)
If it was indeed a "Christmas return", you don't know how many times little Jimmy dry fired it playing Cowboys & Indians while Dad was out getting pizza. I think your beef is really more with the retailer than with Umarex. If the rifle was abused (like the counter person dry firing it and breaking the front sight), that would be considered "misuse" or "abuse" and likely not covered by any warranty. Sometimes a "good deal" is not so much.
I hope you get it resolved, but like they say "Caveat Emptor" when buying from a retailer who sells "as is" and doesn't offer refunds.
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I just have to ask. Would you send your air rifle to Umarex to work on if it wasn't in warranty. Don't sound any better than Hatsan's repair center.
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So YOU did not lube it, and the retailer sold it to you as NEW.
So tell Umarex exactly that. If they say it's over lubed, then they must have been the ones to over lube it. You bought it new, in box. You can easily explain the broken sight - the retailer dropped it, then offered you a discount because of the broken sight. You can't expect Umarex to replace that sight for free, but they should be willing to sell you a new sight, at your expense.
Now, I still don't get this "Christmas return" thing. Did the retailer tell you that, or did they tell you it was a new gun? That's a simple question. If you are just speculating that it was a return, what are you basing your speculation on? Do you think the retailer is lying to you about the status of the rifle? If you think the retailer is lying and sold you a used/returned gun but represented it as new, does Umarex agree with you on that? If so, go after the retailer. It doesn't matter if they have a no refund/return policy. If they LIED to you and said it was a new gun when it wasn't, their return policy is irrelevant. You just need to stand up for yourself.
If you determine that the retailer is lying, go after them through the chamber of commerce, and if you have a local talk radio station that does consumer advocacy programs (many do), sic them on the retailer.
If you determine that Umarex is at fault and you're getting nowhere with their warrantee department, do an internet search and find out Umarex's main directory number. Call it, and ask to speak to the head of the company. Don't be shy, they'll probably connect you. I had a bad Lawn Boy mower many years ago. The repair department wouldn't acknowledge an obvious quality/warrantee issue. So I contacted the company and asked for the president. They said he was out of the office for a week, so I said one of the VP's would do. They connected me. Much apologizing from their end at that point. They offered me my choice of any of their lawn mowers, even an upgrade to a costlier model, because the Lawn Boy production line was converted to other gear at that time and I'd have to wait a few months since they had no stock. Then they said, "Wait, if you'd prefer a Toro mower, we're the same company and we'll give you an upgrade to one of those now if you wish, we have some stock of those". I was flabbergasted by their generosity and said I didn't want to take advantage and I'd wait for the Lawn Boy. I now wish I had taken the Toro, but oh well (now I have a Honda which beats them all). My point being, don't be afraid to escalate your concerns if you don't think you're being treated right.
Another trick, if the main phone operator is stand-offish and refuses to connect you to the higher ups, is to try blind dialing a phone number that is very close to their main number. e.g., if the main number is 303-444-1000, try dialing 303-444-1001. I can tell you from experience (I work used to with corporate phone systems) that the phone numbers that are very close to the companies main number are highly sought after by the executives. It's a stupid ego and status thing for them to nab one of these numbers. You might get a fax by accident (those are also usually close to the main number), but try a few more close by. You also might get some unsuspecting normal employee who hasn't been trained in deflecting customers like executive secretaries are, and this poor schmuck might just put you through when a secretary or main operator would have bounced you. Companies generally have a block of phone numbers clustered together, when blind dialing you should try varying the last digit or two of the main phone number. If you start varying farther up the string of digits, depending on the size of the company you are targeting, you might jump yourself right out of that companies block.
While I'm babbling on about typical phone system setup, here's one other tip: When you find yourself trapped in an automated response system ("Dial 1 for ABC, 2 for XYZ...") your goal should be to make yourself look as stupid as possible to the system. e.g., if they give you four choices, always make that fifth, unmentioned choice. I can't remember what the feature was called when we advertised it to buyers, but internally we called it the "AMI count". "Automated Moron Intercept". Typically we set this to "3". So after you make three incredibly stupid choices in the menu system, it would reroute you to a human queue.
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So YOU did not lube it, and the retailer sold it to you as NEW.
So tell Umarex exactly that. If they say it's over lubed, then they must have been the ones to over lube it. You bought it new, in box. You can easily explain the broken sight - the retailer dropped it, then offered you a discount because of the broken sight. You can't expect Umarex to replace that sight for free, but they should be willing to sell you a new sight, at your expense.
Now, I still don't get this "Christmas return" thing. Did the retailer tell you that, or did they tell you it was a new gun? That's a simple question. If you are just speculating that it was a return, what are you basing your speculation on? Do you think the retailer is lying to you about the status of the rifle? If you think the retailer is lying and sold you a used/returned gun but represented it as new, does Umarex agree with you on that? If so, go after the retailer. It doesn't matter if they have a no refund/return policy. If they LIED to you and said it was a new gun when it wasn't, their return policy is irrelevant. You just need to stand up for yourself.
PM sent, thanks!
Exactly right first two paragraphs, I offered to pay for that front sight (hood was damaged, did yahoo see the pics --- crack originates at bottom seam and assembly is almost ready to fall off, but I offered to pay for the part anyway)
As to return item question, please see other thread, I don't have a keyboard with me today :P
Thanks again for responding, I appreciate it! Hopefully I will speak with Umarex again today or tomorrow.
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John,
Now I'm getting confused...where did you buy the gun...from an authorized dealer or a flea market? How did Umarex determine that is was "over lubed" has it gone back to them for inspection? Inquiring minds want to know ;)
I know more since yesterday after speaking with them again. Umarex determined it was “over lubed” by seeing exactly what you do in the above picture of the spring through the slot in the receiver.
They claim (excessive) chamber oil was used on the spring, that it will not enter the chamber or cause smoke from the barrel. From that picture, do you agree with them? I doubt you can even buy chamber lube here in town.
Authorized dealer, no. Here’s some info about them:
http://www.bbb.org/northern-alabama/business-reviews/discount-stores/essex-bargain-hunt-in-huntsville-al-900124080 (http://www.bbb.org/northern-alabama/business-reviews/discount-stores/essex-bargain-hunt-in-huntsville-al-900124080)
I did have the AG in my hands and looked it over before deciding to buy it (cocked it back almost to the point of latchup), since fired some 70 rounds through it, and in my opinion it started out new and possibly unfired. You don't have to trust my opinion, but it would be nice to know if you were in my position, would you trust your own opinion without having the luxury of disassembling it for inspection first?
Most of the pictures were taken after it had between 50 and 70 rounds through it.
Charles,
I just have to ask. Would you send your air rifle to Umarex to work on if it wasn't in warranty. Don't sound any better than Hatsan's repair center.
Mostly because after concluding it was new, it was my position it should be covered by warranty and they agreed to the extent they were willing to send me the parts to fix it. It was only after circumstances suggested the piston could be slamming the end of the chamber that the gun tech told me he wanted to (presumably, open it up and) look at it.
Truth be told at this point I wish I hadn't sent it to them. If they hadn't agreed to cover shipping I would have said heck with the warranty, but as I've alluded to – I do not believe there was excess lubrication, nor do I believe they were being honest with me in their assessment of what is really wrong with it.
I will elaborate when they return it as the last conversation I had with them was enlightening, to say the least! First I wish to see how they treat it on the return shipping!
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Well, Umarex STILL has the rifle. They say the spring is broken, not covered by warranty, and I have to pay them to get my gun back.
below is picture to compare the other one at the top of this thread. The guy I spoke with said he was going to claim shipping damage for the front and rear sight, replace the front and fix the rear and ship it back to me unrepaired. The sights were NOT broken in shipping and apparently he is equally honest about returning my rifle as well...
I've got a BBB complaint in progress and when it goes public access I will let GTA know what happened. This part you won't have to wait on; I will never consider owning any rifle serviced by Umarex again...
Oh, yeah, does anyone believe from the pictures that the spring was broken?! Let me know if you guys are tired of hearing about this and I will it die - Thanks, Steve (Methuselah).
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I would be curious how this pans out
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Springs are considered consumables and not covered under warranty. Sometimes springs are broken on the ends and can not be seen while in the gun, Best way is to remove the springs and see where it is broken. A spring on a D34 is easy to replace. JMHO
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The spring could have been broke. On my 34 you could not tell it was until I had it apart. It was broke inside the piston and back by the trigger unit.
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The spring could have been broke. On my 34 you could not tell it was until I had it apart. It was broke inside the piston and back by the trigger unit.
Oops --- I guess to be more clear, there is a picture of my gun spring (visible through the slot) at the first post on top, and the one I just posted today is a different gun belonging to someone I work with who only fired 100 to 200 rounds. Mine had 70 through it. I count 14 1/2 coils end to end pretty much exactly on both pictures. After getting so many lies out of Umarex I tend to believe their claim that my spring was broken is just yet another lie but I suppose anything is possible (even though I haven't caught them telling the truth yet :-[)
If the spring was broken it sure didn't shoot any different from shot #1 to the time I sent it to them, but I digress --- let it all get said in one spot when the BBB closes the complaint.
Thanks for your input!
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Personally, I think you are tilting at windmills. As stated by Redfeather on the Dianawerk forum, you bought a used airgun. The original owner purchased it as a present (you think) and returned it. Somehow it ended up at the "bargain outlet" where you bought it, not at an authorized RWS dealer. Legally you have no warranty with Umarex as you are not the original owner. It has been dry fired once in your presence and who knows how many times that you are not aware of. That is misuse and would void a warranty (if you had one).
You should be seeking redress with the retailer who sold you the gun, not the importer.
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Personally, I think you are tilting at windmills. As stated by Redfeather on the Dianawerk forum, you bought a used airgun. The original owner purchased it as a present (you think) and returned it. Somehow it ended up at the "bargain outlet" where you bought it, not at an authorized RWS dealer. Legally you have no warranty with Umarex as you are not the original owner. It has been dry fired once in your presence and who knows how many times that you are not aware of. That is misuse and would void a warranty (if you had one).
You should be seeking redress with the retailer who sold you the gun, not the importer.
Well --- wanted to respond badly but system asked for login during spell check and killed my response twice three times :-[ in a row. I just don't have the temprement to type it a third time.
It got dry fired once for sure, I'll give you that one. You're wrong about the rest, it was new (if you don't believe me just ask me).
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Just had a minor snafu guys, so will apologize in advance for driving this subject back to the top of the pile.
During my BBB complaint process I misunderstood the mechanics of what gets to be visible to the consumers when the complaint is done --- and I WANT the text of it to be visible! Apparently I can include a link but if there is an attachment said attachment makes it get posted without the documents or text. But any attachments I sent are not going to Umarex either and I didn't know that.
So, I'm putting pics up in this post for Umarex to look at, and it will clarify what I was asking the group to look at as well regarding their claim the spring was broken (not damaged, they said broken). Both my spring, another with 100 to 200 shots on it, and a phone record (they claimed after I told them not to work on it I called back the same day and changed my mind, guess on the planet they live on they don't have phone records).
While I'm at it, one final note to packard8 --- after thinking about what you said all I can do is address integrity, so I counted the lies, misdirections, and improprieties from my notes dealing with Umarex and the total, some of them small but nevertheless, the total was 18. Eighteen. Maybe the black and white what is legal is all that matters to you, but I tend to stand on principle - never lie, if your wrong then take your lumps, if you screw up admit it, and I expect a company to at least try to behave likewise.
On to the slide show ;)
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Have you ever heard of the expression "if you don't have something good to say about someone/thing, don't say anything", well, I'm not going to say anything.......
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Your picture is useless as it only shows about half the coils. Springs rarely break in the middle. An OEM spring for a 34 has 33 coils.
Did you open it up before sending it to them? If they said it was broken they obviously opened it up.
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It got dry fired once for sure, I'll give you that one. You're wrong about the rest, it was new (if you don't believe me just ask me).
Well, let's look at the facts as you present them:
You *think* the gun was new because it looked new and had all the papers
You *think* it was purchased for Christmas and returned. If so, you are not the original owner
You *think* it was only dry fired once, but you don't really know if little Jimmy who got it at Christmas dry fired it dozens of times playing cowboys & indians while Dad was away, or how many times the clerk who dry fired it in your presence dry fired it for other customers
You bought it from a bargain outlet, not an authorized RWS/Diana dealer
Dry firing the gun repeatedly could easily break a spring
None of the above events are the responsibility of Umarex to correct
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You *think* the gun was new because it looked new and had all the papers
You *think* it was purchased for Christmas and returned. If so, you are not the original owner
These two quotes go against every thing I have seen in the thread! How can it be new when it was returned. It is either one or the other. Your problem is not with Umarex but the place that sold you the gun.
Your picture is useless as it only shows about half the coils. Springs rarely break in the middle. An OEM spring for a 34 has 33 coils.
Did you open it up before sending it to them? If they said it was broken they obviously opened it up.
+1 Totally agree.
In life we gain experience from our mistakes, and we have success because of our experience. It is a circle and we can either embrace it or become bitter about it. I have chosen to hold on tight to my dreams. :)
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These two quotes go against every thing I have seen in the thread! How can it be new when it was returned. It is either one or the other. Your problem is not with Umarex but the place that sold you the gun.
+1 Totally agree.
In life we gain experience from our mistakes, and we have success because of our experience. It is a circle and we can either embrace it or become bitter about it. I have chosen to hold on tight to my dreams. :)
I completely disagree. Umarex is 100% responsible for the actions of their retailers. They should fix this gun in good faith and deal with their retailer if they don't want to be on the hook for repeat occurrences.
BBB complaints are fine as long as the company filed against cares about their BBB standing. I'd write to the CEO of Umarex in Germany and explain your situation as clearly and accurately as possible. If you don't get a response well then you know how to spend your money in the future.
Tom
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I completely disagree. Umarex is 100% responsible for the actions of their retailers. They should fix this gun in good faith and deal with their retailer if they don't want to be on the hook for repeat occurrences.
Tom
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The gun wasn't purchased from an authorized retailer. It was purchased from a "Bargain Outlet" with no affiliation with RWS or Umarex.
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I guess I missed that. How did the "bargain outlet" get the product in the first place? If its grey market all bets are off but my guess is it originated from Umarex.
If is not grey market and the seller was not authorized then Umarex still has retailers to deal with and still should stand behind their product.
Tom
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I guess I missed that. How did the "bargain outlet" get the product in the first place? If its grey market all bets are off but my guess is it originated from Umarex.
If is not grey market and the seller was not authorized then Umarex still has retailers to deal with and still should stand behind their product.
Tom
How the bargain outlet acquired the gun wasn't clear from the OP's earlier posts. If it was imported/distributed by Umarex, I expect they will have a list of what serial numbers were sent to which authorized retailers.
That info and the sales receipt from the bargain outlet should confirm whether or not the gun's warranty is valid.
I agree with you on grey market goods...folks think they are getting a good deal until warranty repairs are needed.
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I honestly think grey market is BS. If you sell a product with a warranty that warranty should apply for its stated time no matter what.
Sure if the product is abused that is not a warranty claim. If the warranty is 2 years it should not matter how many hands it passes through in those two years.
"Grey market" is normally because they want to set different prices in different markets and want to benefit from arbitrage, but want to prevent others from doing so. This is anti-free market and anti-common sense. If I want to buy my movies in Hong Kong and have them shipped to me that should be my choice. No different than they get to build guns where they like.
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I have to disagree Steven. The grey market item was likely cheaper than its counterpart and may not have some safety feature required by US laws.
If one buys an grey market item they are betting it will not fail and hoping to save money in the long run. When it breaks, they lose their bet much like gamblers at Vegas do.
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I honestly think grey market is BS. If you sell a product with a warranty that warranty should apply for its stated time no matter what.
Sure if the product is abused that is not a warranty claim. If the warranty is 2 years it should not matter how many hands it passes through in those two years.
"Grey market" is normally because they want to set different prices in different markets and want to benefit from arbitrage, but want to prevent others from doing so. This is anti-free market and anti-common sense. If I want to buy my movies in Hong Kong and have them shipped to me that should be my choice. No different than they get to build guns where they like.
That would be fine IF Dianawerk AG paid for repairs of grey market products, but they don't. The grey market importer/seller of the product made the profit on the sale. Do you expect the legally authorized importer (Umarex) to pay for repairs on a product they did not import or sell?
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I honestly think grey market is BS. If you sell a product with a warranty that warranty should apply for its stated time no matter what.
Sure if the product is abused that is not a warranty claim. If the warranty is 2 years it should not matter how many hands it passes through in those two years.
"Grey market" is normally because they want to set different prices in different markets and want to benefit from arbitrage, but want to prevent others from doing so. This is anti-free market and anti-common sense. If I want to buy my movies in Hong Kong and have them shipped to me that should be my choice. No different than they get to build guns where they like.
That would be fine IF Dianawerk AG paid for repairs of grey market products, but they don't. The grey market importer/seller of the product made the profit on the sale. Do you expect the legally authorized importer (Umarex) to pay for repairs on a product they did not import or sell?
Of course not. I would in that case expect to have to pay for shipping to and from Germany. That or drop it off when I visit family.
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I have to disagree Steven. The grey market item was likely cheaper than its counterpart and may not have some safety feature required by US laws.
If one buys an grey market item they are betting it will not fail and hoping to save money in the long run. When it breaks, they lose their bet much like gamblers at Vegas do.
That is a bunch of hooey and you know it. No one is asking for new features, just the promised warranty.
It is cheaper because they want to sell for one price in market a and another in market b. That is where arbitage comes into play. No different than buying ice from Eskimos and selling it to Floridians.
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Steven ,,, there is no promised warranty on grey market items in the US
you get what you paid for, which was no warranty. buy from an authorized dealer in the US and you get a warranty.
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Steven ,,, there is no promised warranty on grey market items in the US
you get what you paid for, which was no warranty. buy from an authorized dealer in the US and you get a warranty.
Sure there was, whatever the warranty was in the place they sold it to the importer.
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Steven ,,, there is no promised warranty on grey market items in the US
you get what you paid for, which was no warranty. buy from an authorized dealer in the US and you get a warranty.
Sure there was, whatever the warranty was in the place they sold it to the importer.
add in .. "in the country it was intended to be sold in" and I would tend to agree.
if you buy a grey market item that was warrantied in (say) Europe, then one would have to ship it back to there to get warranty work done.
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What a messy situation. Did Umarex discuss what was causing the breach to pop open?
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As a man familiar with hierarchy in big business and customer service issues, all I have to say is that while the OP's efforts to get a free repair will ultimately not satisfy them regardless of what happens, somewhere in the hierarchical chain someone will get chewed out for something that isn't there fault and the real culprit will most likely never hear about the issue.
this thread reminds me of situations where you see celebrities and politicians say something inappropriate, and then a group of people form on social media and demand an apology, and then the celeb/politician apologizes. What does it accomplish? Nothing. The offended are still offended, the apology is meaningless, and soon everyone forgets what even happened.
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Unfortunately even though the warranty should rest with Umarex the retailer (POP) also has responsibility as a brick and mortar store it is in their best interest to have satisfied customers. Since most brick and motor businesses survive on repeat business if the return is in under 30 days they should have offered a replacement or refund no questions asked unless they have clearly indicated an all sales are final policy. As far as manufactures warranty is concerned unless free shipping both ways with lower end AG's the cost and time involved in ground based shipping can quickly equal the purchase price.
My take is chalk it up to experience and move on
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I'm really glad others are able to help, because personally I can't make heads nor tails of this whole situation.
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I'm not sure I would buy another umarex anyway. Both that I've had were terrible guns, one a 200+ dollar replica HK P30 pistol.
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I'm not sure I would buy another umarex anyway. With the sole exception of my LGV. Otherwise both that I've had were terrible guns, one a 200+ dollar replica HK P30 pistol.
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I'm really glad others are able to help, because personally I can't make heads nor tails of this whole situation.
I have been thinking the same thing as I read through this!
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And that's why I deal only with reputable vendors to buy new stuff. And I never settle for warranty repairs on an air rifle- especially for seals and springs because they are dirt cheap and easily replaced. Better to do it yourself right than to spend a lot more shipping it back where some sweaty kid is gonna booger up your stock screws, or worse. And every time I get a new rifle, I wring it out well over the first weekend to ensure that it's not defective. I normally lube tune them shortly after the return period. The only time I have called on the factory warranty is once I received a rifle that shot really well but came with a defective scope. They just sent me a new scope, told me to keep the old one no questions asked. That was a Stoeger branded rifle.
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I guess I missed that. How did the "bargain outlet" get the product in the first place?
Umarex called the store I bought it from. They were told it is either freight-damaged or a clearance sale item. You can rule out freight damaged (they have). Any more than that your guess is as good as anyone elses.
As to the ongoing debate, all I can attest to is the condition. I have better closeup vision without magnification than most people do looking through a magnifying glass ... I can say there were tells indicating it was new. One of them was the grease on the pin that engages the lockup pin under the barrel. It was "dabbed" and had not yet "caught" or spread. There was zero dust/fingerprints and if they were wiped you know how the grease looks in areas like the barrel pivot when you try to wipe up the excess?
Forgetting all that, it is my understanding they honk like a goose if the piston seal is dry and it tends to go on for the first 50 to 70 rounds. Well - bingo...
The real story is simply that Umarex agreed to take care of me on it, that is, until they got their hands on it. Not the first time they did that either, just read through the (12) BBB complaints.
I'll post a link to the complaint when the BBB makes it public, but until then just be aware as the complaint is being answered that Umarex has re-written the facts several times now. That's a good thing, because it exposes more of the truth each time they do it!
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You'd think that in this day and age of folks getting noisy on the internet about a company's poor customer service, that Umarex and their ilk would get off their high-horse and just take care of you. Is it worth a long drawn out public thread that points out how boneheaded they are, before they come to their good sense and make things right? Or are they just going to continue to along their road to ruin? I suspect the latter.
I tend to be the squeaky wheel when a product fails to live up to any reasonable standard, and I will contact the company. If they do not act in good customer service then I step up my request to a demand, and if I still get no reasonable response then I bring it up publicly and increase the noise. Then I pass on the word to my friends and family, and pretty soon the company involved loses a good chunk of business. Most certainly they have lost mine.
So, Umarex... dig in your heals, and this community takes notice, and spends their money elsewhere. Or step up to the plate, take care of your customer and perhaps you can keep this from becoming much larger than fixing one air rifle.
steveoh
I guess I missed that. How did the "bargain outlet" get the product in the first place?
Umarex called the store I bought it from. They were told it is either freight-damaged or a clearance sale item. You can rule out freight damaged (they have). Any more than that your guess is as good as anyone elses.
As to the ongoing debate, all I can attest to is the condition. I have better closeup vision without magnification than most people do looking through a magnifying glass ... I can say there were tells indicating it was new. One of them was the grease on the pin that engages the lockup pin under the barrel. It was "dabbed" and had not yet "caught" or spread. There was zero dust/fingerprints and if they were wiped you know how the grease looks in areas like the barrel pivot when you try to wipe up the excess?
Forgetting all that, it is my understanding they honk like a goose if the piston seal is dry and it tends to go on for the first 50 to 70 rounds. Well - bingo...
The real story is simply that Umarex agreed to take care of me on it, that is, until they got their hands on it. Not the first time they did that either, just read through the (12) BBB complaints.
I'll post a link to the complaint when the BBB makes it public, but until then just be aware as the complaint is being answered that Umarex has re-written the facts several times now. That's a good thing, because it exposes more of the truth each time they do it!
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I'm really glad others are able to help, because personally I can't make heads nor tails of this whole situation.
+1
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Steve, I don't think that the majority of GTA members would pass on all Umarex guns because of 1 complaint or even a couple of them. I know it would take more than 1 complaint to stop me from buying from a company. I would bet you can find 1 person upset with any of the airgun makers out there over a customer service issue.
I am not about to grab a pitchfork and tar over this particular issue.
I do hope the OP gets things corrected to his satisfaction and can get out to shoot.
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If I had the spare cash laying around, you better believe I'd have a RWS 34 on the way. It is what it is! But I'd be dealing with pyramyd, and they would send me an RMA and ship the old gun back and ship me a new one at no additional cost. Been there, done that, with another gun. If you got the deal of a lifetime on a basically new Diana and they dry fired it right in front if you, you should have either tore it down as soon as you got home or asked for a different rifle inside the store. If it's the only one they had, roll the dice at your own risk. Just like buying a used gun no telling what is going on with that deal...
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If I had the spare cash laying around, you better believe I'd have a RWS 34 on the way. It is what it is! But I'd be dealing with pyramyd, and they would send me an RMA and ship the old gun back and ship me a new one at no additional cost. Been there, done that, with another gun. If you got the deal of a lifetime on a basically new Diana and they dry fired it right in front if you, you should have either tore it down as soon as you got home or asked for a different rifle inside the store. If it's the only one they had, roll the dice at your own risk. Just like buying a used gun no telling what is going on with that deal...
^^^+1^^^
I was in the photo/optical business for 30+ years both as a retail store owner and a manufacturer's representative on the wholesale side. There are definite advantages to buying from an authorized/franchised retailer. For products manufactured outside the USA, the factory usually relies on an importer to distribute and service it's products in the United States. I believe this to be the relationship between Dianawerk Germany and Umarex USA. When a distributor/importer receives an item for warranty service they generally try to determine if the item was imported by them (not gray market) and sold through their network of authorized dealers, as they are the only retailers who can legitimately sell product as new if the distributor has exclusive import rights on that product in the USA. They are not eager to pay their service people to work on items brought into the country illegitimately or sold by non authorized retail outlets. They usually require the Sales Receipt to determine that it was purchased from an authorized dealer, and the person requesting repair is the original owner. I can see why, you wouldn't expect a Ford dealer to do warranty work on a Chevy.
The service department also tries to determine if the needed repair is caused by a defect in materials or workmanship or a result of abuse, modification or misuse. Damage caused by impact, dry firing etc is not covered by the warranty. In this case, we don't know the exact history of the gun in question. We do know that it was not sold by an authorized dealer, we do know that it was dry fired and we do know that it suffered an impact sufficient to break the muzzle brake/front sight.
In my experience, the Service Department does have some discretion in approving No Charge repairs on equipment that does not otherwise meet warranty requirements. This accommodation is more likely to be granted to a customer who is up front about the cause of the damage than one who threatens action through Consumer Agencies.
As Grandma said, "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar".
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As Grandma said, "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar".
Doggie poo works well too. :)
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Steve, I don't think that the majority of GTA members would pass on all Umarex guns because of 1 complaint or even a couple of them. I know it would take more than 1 complaint to stop me from buying from a company. I would bet you can find 1 person upset with any of the airgun makers out there over a customer service issue.
I am not about to grab a pitchfork and tar over this particular issue.
I do hope the OP gets things corrected to his satisfaction and can get out to shoot.
Geoffrey,
+1
There were 12 complaints, 8 closed out in epic failure fashion, and given statistically speaking only one it ten will go through the trouble of a BBB complaint when unsatisfied with a company, that probably equates to over 120 complaints in three years (40 a year). Given the nature of the complaints - overall I still agree with you - this ISN'T a boycott situation, not even close.
But I do hope others can learn from my mistakes.
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The fact of the matter is, I can get a German breakbarrel, with a half decent scope and drooper, shooting 14-15 fpe right out of the box, and accurate enough to win in field target for about $300. And that gun is imported by Umarex. The limited lifetime warranty of the gun doesn't even matter to me. If it's gonna have lockup issues I will figure it out before the end of the return period. Anything else that goes wrong, I'm gonna fix on my own because shipping the gun might get damaged and I can get a Maccarri spring, seal, moly and tar shipped to my door for what it costs to ship my gun. Besides that, you nver know who if they might screw your gun up more. I doubt they have top guys doing their warranty work. So what makes sense to you, obviously doesn't make sense to me!
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A note on that company,
I googled them and found an employee rating site, here is 1 post, not from your store, but it says a lot. And as far as being bought from an authorised dealer, well if the importer takes back returns then sells them as repos they still should cover them. Since THEY the distributor is selling them. All uns going to a single distributor, should have identifiers in the seriel number, that is easily done and is done in other manufacturers lines. That is why a store can say WILL NOT BE UNDERSOLD ON ANY MODEL WE SELL, because the makers (think washers and dryers) will make the tags that go to Sear different then the ones that go to Walmart. It even happens with food. Ground turky from Stop'n'Shop has a differernt UPC code then the identical product from say King Kullen markets. I know because I mixed up to identicle packages returned the wrong turkey at one store. The employee has a reciept and a sealed good date , but the upc's don't match.....I did get the cash back, and figured it out when I got home and found the other receipt and two different upc packages.
herewith the posting, remember same store different state of the union.
current employee (Current Employee), Hendersonville, tn – May 16, 2014
Pros: can't think of any
Cons: name it
Horrible!! Upper management only cares about their perks. Most all positions are part time and not enough hours to survive on!! They say sales are down so they have to cut everyone's hours, then they keep hiring people and giving them 8-9 hours a week! Rules only apply to certain employees. Miserable, most items are defective or used. Pay for anyone other than upper management (who do nothing) not worthy!!! If you apply and get hired, prepare to work like a grunt for minimum wage and very few hours a week.