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All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: farmerjoe99 on March 07, 2015, 05:51:59 PM
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I'm getting a low power disco (9fpe in .177)
and looking to set it up as a 12 fpe ,max shots per fill
close range hunter and plinking gun.
it will be used for shooting starlings and pigeons in our hay barns
were most shots are 10-25yds and I don't want/need a loud 20+ fpe rifle.
And I've been trying to figure out which way to go...
stick with .177 or buy a FX Lothar Walther barrel in .22
and set it up to shoot about 12fpe.
Thoughts?
Will one be more air efficient than the other?
Better for hunting?
long range plinking?
Joseph
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I'm getting a low power disco (9fpe in .177)
and looking to set it up as a 12 fpe ,max shots per fill
close range hunter and plinking gun.
it will be used for shooting starlings and pigeons in our hay barns
were most shots are 10-25yds and I don't want/need a loud 20+ fpe rifle.
And I've been trying to figure out which way to go...
stick with .177 or buy a FX Lothar Walther barrel in .22
and set it up to shoot about 12fpe.
Thoughts?
Will one be more air efficient than the other?
Better for hunting?
long range plinking?
Joseph
Of course it is all a matter of opinion and preference.
Efficient...... not sure if one holds an edge there other than the .177 will shoot flatter, but at the ranges you are talking not really an issue.
.22 does hold it's FPE better at range. While I hunt with either caliber I personally prefer .22 for hunting. With that said I killed around 200 mammals last year and it was about 50/50 .177 to .22. Even woodchucks I took with both calibers. But I just feel better using a .22 for hunting.
Long range plinking .177 is better as it fly's flatter. Better may not even be the right word to use. But long range plinking will be easier with a .177. Less pellet drop.
I converted several of my Daisy 880's to .22. One has a LW barrel. Put the .22 LW barrel in your AG and don't look back. You will LOVE the accuracy.
My .02.
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A 12fpe .177 rifle is more than adequate for the job of shooting birds in a barn at 10 to 25 yards. Our friends across the pond hunt with 12fpe rifles as a matter of course. UK airgunners regularly shoot rabbits with 12 fpe guns. That's the maximum they are allowed without a FAC. If they can do it, there's no reason why it can't be done on this side of the pond. The birds and bunnies aren't that much tougher here than over there.
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I don't know, from reading alot of posts, it looks like most in th US wear Kevlar. As for the gun, flip a coin.😎
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Considering the range you expect, trajectory wouldn't really be a factor. Wouldn't get any real "bonus" for the faster/flatter 12 foot pound .177, so may as well go for the .22.
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I am asking a question to further the conversation...
Is 12 fpe in .177 more, less, or equally likely than .22 to pass through and hit the side of the barn?
My intuition tells me that .177 might expel more of its energy in the bird, whereas a .22 might leave a hole in the side or roof.
But I am new...
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I'm getting a low power disco (9fpe in .177)
and looking to set it up as a 12 fpe ,max shots per fill
close range hunter and plinking gun.
it will be used for shooting starlings and pigeons in our hay barns
were most shots are 10-25yds and I don't want/need a loud 20+ fpe rifle.
And I've been trying to figure out which way to go...
stick with .177 or buy a FX Lothar Walther barrel in .22
and set it up to shoot about 12fpe.
Thoughts?
Will one be more air efficient than the other?
Better for hunting?
long range plinking?
Joseph
You only need aprox. 3 ft/lbs @ POI to dispatch those kind of birds.
.22 is more air efficient than .177 every time.
.22 is better for hunting small game as it carries more energy to the POI, e.g. my 11 ft/lb .22 air rifle will deliver 6.3 ft/lbs at 50 yards with Crosman Premier 14.3 gr pellets.
.22 pellets dump more energy into the target, whereas .177 pellets are more likely to pass through leaving a small neat hole, but far less collateral damage. Flea bites versus dog bites is how I would characterise the difference between the two calibres.
For long range plinking .22 wins again IMO, because I don't run out of mildots until 55 yards if I zero @ 25 yards and .22 pellets are less susceptible to cross-wind deviation at longer ranges.
Plus .177 pellets are more fiddly to load and the holes are generally harder to see at any kind of range.
.177 ammo is usually cheaper, but you get what you pay for and the choice is yours. ;)
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Thanks for all the great info and keep it coming!
Looks like I'll be ordering the .22 barrel then 8)
which will be nice as my other disco is .22 so
all my guns will be the same caliber.
plus .22 is a lot easier to load...
Nice to know is is perfectly capable of pigeons at 35yds with correct shot placement.
Joseph
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When I had my cz s200, in .22, I was able to hit pop cans at 80 yards with ease. The 12 ftlb will make things trickier, but it is suitable. At 35 yards I would go with the .22, for the more "thump" at the target and the pellet will be going slow this causing less damage if you miss out get a pass through.
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Actually, found the reverse to be true. 12 foot pound .177 tends to penetrate steel sheeting better than a 12 foot pound .22.
Think of it this way.
.177 has a frontal area of .025 square inches. Which makes the force per sqqure inch something like 480 foot pounds. In .22, that same 12 foot pounds is delivered over .038 square inches, which works out to about 316 per square inch.
Being more hands on, shot an old galvanized tub. Was looking at 15 foot pounds (and at the range in impacted, probably down to about 13 foot pounds) and using a .25 and a .177. Wider dents with the big pellet, holes with the little one.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t50/ribbonstone/springers/69dcacb8-c135-4a96-80a1-ae8e4fcdc4b5.jpg)
I'd pretty much expect a through and through shot on birds (pigeons are bigger than most, but still hollow boned lightly built critters). Would exit slower than they entered, and I'd guess that the .22 would deposit more energy in the bird, so would have less energy on exit.
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I have to agree with Bob...
.177 ;)
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Doesn't make all that much difference, so long as you hit the pigeon. But not being perfect, have been known to miss. And with typical luck, whatever the pellet finally hits would be better off not hit.
I didn't have a pigeon problem, but had a rat problem in a workshop shed and didn't want to spend a lot of time patching it up, so looked for dent-makers rather than hole-makers in case of a miss. Which is why I shot the old tub, being a pretty close approximation of the old shed.
What i found:
1. Low energy means low velocity. Low velocity means you can't expect even expanding pellets to really expand.
2. Wad cutters lose speed fast in air. They also loose speed fast in every other semi-soft substance (including pigeons), so they deposit their energy quicky.
3. Going back to #1, can usually find a wad cutter that shoots well at these speeds (not true of really fast guns).
4. Avoid misses if you want to avoid patching holes.
EVERYTHING makes holes in well rusted/rotted sheet roofing. It is almost crumbly, like shooting gram crackers.
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12 fpe comparison:
1 .177 shoots flatter than .22
2 .22 is more efficient than .177
3 .177 will usually penetrate more than the .22. So pass thru is easier depending on target, pellet and penetration thru sheet metal or something similar will be higher for the .177. This is true for most situations but there always seems to be one or two exceptions.
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12 fpe comparison:
1 .177 shoots flatter than .22
2 .22 is more efficient than .177
3 .177 will usually penetrate more than the .22. So pass thru is easier depending on target, pellet and penetration thru sheet metal or something similar will be higher for the .177. This is true for most situations but there always seems to be one or two exceptions.
How do you measure this?
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12 fpe comparison:
1 .177 shoots flatter than .22
2 .22 is more efficient than .177
3 .177 will usually penetrate more than the .22. So pass thru is easier depending on target, pellet and penetration thru sheet metal or something similar will be higher for the .177. This is true for most situations but there always seems to be one or two exceptions.
How do you measure this?
It only applies to pcp air rifles. If you have a .177 thats set at 12 fpe and a .22 set at 12 fpe the .22 will use less air to achieve 12 fpe.
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IMO, at 12fpe :
.22 for chest shots on rats & pigeons indoors. Fewer passthrus, & less likely to punch holes in walls/roofing.
.177 for headshots in the field, where targets might be further away & an error in rangefinding less likely to cause a miss.
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At 12 fpe and under, I think .177 is the clear winner.
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This old debate rears its head again eh? ::)
Honestly, in a 12 fpe gun .177 is the better pellet for the type of shooting & pests.
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It only applies to pcp air rifles. If you have a .177 thats set at 12 fpe and a .22 set at 12 fpe the .22 will use less air to achieve 12 fpe.
Ok I'd tend to agree if you are just talking air usage efficiency.
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At 12 fpe and under, I think .177 is the clear winner.
I agree. I'd prefer 8 grains at 830 fps over 14.3 grains at 615 fps. But 14.3g 22 cal at 830 wins over even 10 grain 177 at 830 fps.
I'm glad I'm not limited to 12 fpe.
Ray
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Can't really agree for the shooting he's outlining...10-25 yards on birds. Would agree with a 12 foot pound .177 for all around use, but that specific task, don't see the real advantage of trajectory. Would certainly prefer the .177 for use outside that shed/barn where the range might stretch a bit.
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It only applies to pcp air rifles. If you have a .177 thats set at 12 fpe and a .22 set at 12 fpe the .22 will use less air to achieve 12 fpe.
Ok I'd tend to agree if you are just talking air usage efficiency.
Yep thats what I am referring to. I dont know what else could be put in there unless cost of pellets but I think .177 would win that comparison.
Can't really agree for the shooting he's outlining...10-25 yards on birds. Would agree with a 12 foot pound .177 for all around use, but that specific task, don't see the real advantage of trajectory. Would certainly prefer the .177 for use outside that shed/barn where the range might stretch a bit.
I agree. There are a few posts in this thread saying the .177 would be better but I have to disagree based on the OP shooting distance and where he is going to be using the low power rifle.
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Since you already have the 177 parts, why not set it up in 177 and try it first?
If you decide it isn't enough, you can spend the time and money and convert to 22 caliber.
If it were for squirrels or out in the wind, I'd for sure go with the bigger caliber - even bigger. But for birds, the 177 is very effective. As long as I hit the bird with my 177, it is dead. Obviously, accuracy is most important. And there will be less damage to your barns with an 8 grain 177 pellet.
Ray
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my personal and completely unprofessional opinion on this matter is...
if your shooting Sub 14 FPE, i'd always go for .177. your disco should get plenty of shots tuned to 12 FPE in .177, be quiet, and shoot flatter. many many many many critters have been killed in the last 100 or so years in .177 caliber at sub 12 FPE even. Daisy 880 pumpers pushing 8 FPE kill squirrels stone dead. .22 will do just the same, but your going to be lobbing pellets. i would also think, if you miss, a .177 pellet might cause a little less damage. Also typically .177 pellets are dirt cheap, and plentiful. you have LOTS of options (not that you don't in .22 but... in .177 your options are limitless). my 15 FPE TX200 springer would kill collared doves well out to 100 yds. dont' shy away from .177 ever. they are small, and mighty.
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Since you already have the 177 parts, why not set it up in 177 and try it first?
If you decide it isn't enough, you can spend the time and money and convert to 22 caliber.
If it were for squirrels or out in the wind, I'd for sure go with the bigger caliber - even bigger. But for birds, the 177 is very effective. As long as I hit the bird with my 177, it is dead. Obviously, accuracy is most important. And there will be less damage to your barns with an 8 grain 177 pellet.
Ray
Yes I will definitely be shooting it some in .177 before I go converting it
but just to make it more understandable why I would take the time
too switch is it is a BNM repeater breech and a shortened shroud(shroud in .22) set-up in .177
but comes with the block and bolt and 24" barrel for .22 so all I would need is
either cut the barrel or just buy a 15" FX LW barrel for $20
Can't wait for it to get here and start shooting 8)
it will be the first repeater/shrouded air rifle I'll have shot 8)
1. Low energy means low velocity. Low velocity means you can't expect even expanding pellets to really expand.
2. Wad cutters lose speed fast in air. They also loose speed fast in every other semi-soft substance (including pigeons), so they deposit their energy quicky.
3. Going back to #1, can usually find a wad cutter that shoots well at these speeds (not true of really fast guns).
4. Avoid misses if you want to avoid patching holes.
Very good points I hadn't thought of I'll be sure to get some wad cutters.
Thanks for everyone's continued help!
Joseph
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My last $.02 on the subject.
We have all killed birds (pigeons, pheasants, chukar, doves, etc. with one magic pellet.
Haven't we?
A single #6 lead pellet from your shotgun traveling at 1200fps has about 1.6fpe at the muzzle.
So if one pellet packing a whopping 1.6fpe in the brain box can bring down a bird larger than a pigeon, I am sure a 7-8 grain pellet with 12fpe can do so with ease.
Yes our brothers across the pond hunt with 12fpe but most don't because they don't want government intervention by applying for the FAC. >:(
That is according to the posts I see on British forums.
Stay safe ;)
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Frank to be honest it really doesn't take much to dispatch a pidgy. Lil Sexy makes 8 fpe & I get no problems reaching out to 45-50 yards to ruin a pigeons feeding session. At those distances & velocities, the only true variable is the wind.
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Around here, dove are very fragile and die if anything hits them just about anywhere.
Rock pigeons are tough critters and I've seen some take three 25 caliber Predator Polymags to the body and keep on flying.
Of course, it is possible to kill them with one well-placed 177 shot too even at 50 plus yards.
I've killed a lot of rock pigeons with my pellet guns and they are thick in numbers around where I shoot. They are my second favorite target next to squirrels.
Ray
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12 FPE, Short range... 22 takes it.. Also, I agree that 12 FPE .177 does more damage to property than 12FPE .22..
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12FPE and .177 goes together so well. I've never picked up any of my kills that knew any difference LOL ! Placement and accuracy, is still the key. I LUV the .177 at 12FPE muzzle. Like some of the elders have posted...15+FPE is really about the minimum for even the lighter .22 pellets, to truly make a bit of a difference.
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At 12 fpe and under, I think .177 is the clear winner.
I agree. I'd prefer 8 grains at 830 fps over 14.3 grains at 615 fps. But 14.3g 22 cal at 830 wins over even 10 grain 177 at 830 fps.
I'm glad I'm not limited to 12 fpe.
Ray
this is pretty much what i was thinking when i voted .177
at the power level, range and purpose you have in mind, i'd go .177
kgb