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All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: Tomcat on February 26, 2015, 06:18:51 PM
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I'm talking similar power levels and similar quality rifles.
My reason for asking this is I have a little more difficult time getting small one hole groups with my TX200 in 22 cal than I do with other rifles in .177 cal. I don't have the same model to compare, and I know there are many factors involved in good accuracy. I am shooting from a rest, and have tried numerous ways of resting and holding the rifle. It may well be the nut behind the butt plate ;D.
I think the TX is fully capable of putting pellets in the same exact hole at 10 yds, because I have done 5 shot groups with very tight groups. I just seem to have to work harder to accomplish it than with a HW97 in .177 cal or my HW50s in .177.
I'm not trying to start a discussion on which is the better rifle, I'm just wondering what your experiences have been regardless of the brand or rifle between 22 cal and .177.
Do you find one caliber slightly less accurate than the other?
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All things OTHER than caliber being equal ... generally YES a .22 will be a tad harder.
This IMO due to greater pellet mass being accelerated creating a greater 'Bump' upon firing along with the fact that a heavier pellet is in the barrel longer than a smaller bore light pellet. So motion of the rifles shot cycle is slightly more by the time pellet exits muzzle.
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A friend of mine had the same problem with his .22 tx200 hc.
Problem solved after getting to 14 fpe and start using jsb exact 14.3 grain,
she shoots one pellet on the other now.
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I used to have multiple duplicate rifles of same model in both calibers. Now I only have a few of the .22 guns. The rest were sold and replaced by 177 or the 177 models kept. To coin a phrase; the 177 is more sergical. Just my experience.
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All things OTHER than caliber being equal ... generally YES a .22 will be a tad harder.
This IMO due to greater pellet mass being accelerated creating a greater 'Bump' upon firing along with the fact that a heavier pellet is in the barrel longer than a smaller bore light pellet. So motion of the rifles shot cycle is slightly more by the time pellet exits muzzle.
+1 I agree totally. I might add that in the HW series I think the .177 barrels are a bit better.
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I'm talking similar power levels and similar quality rifles.
My reason for asking this is I have a little more difficult time getting small one hole groups with my TX200 in 22 cal than I do with other rifles in .177 cal. I don't have the same model to compare, and I know there are many factors involved in good accuracy. I am shooting from a rest, and have tried numerous ways of resting and holding the rifle. It may well be the nut behind the butt plate ;D.
I think the TX is fully capable of putting pellets in the same exact hole at 10 yds, because I have done 5 shot groups with very tight groups. I just seem to have to work harder to accomplish it than with a HW97 in .177 cal or my HW50s in .177.
I'm not trying to start a discussion on which is the better rifle, I'm just wondering what your experiences have been regardless of the brand or rifle between 22 cal and .177.
Do you find one caliber slightly less accurate than the other?
'pends on the distance with a springer! For example, past the zero distance a slower .22 pellet drops much more rapidly with each yard than the faster .177. While the .22 cal may be just as accurate (perhaps even more), the loopier .22 trajectory makes it harder to accurately judge the holdover, therefore more difficult to place the pellet accurately.
Over a decade ago I went from a .177 cal barrel on my R9 to a .20 barrel, then from a .20 cal barrel to a .22 cal barrel, and then back to .177 cal never to look back!
As a side note.....neither my .177 R9 or HW77k shot well from a bench rest unless I placed my hand under the stock forearm and made sure the butt of the stock didn't tough the bench top. I do have to say that the extra weight of the "77k" relative to the R9 did make it a BIT easier to shoot accurately. Perhaps the weight of the other guns you're comparing to your TX has something to do with "shooting from a rest".
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I've had .22 caliber springers but sold them. I always found the .177 to lend itself more to accuracy than the .22 caliber.
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All things OTHER than caliber being equal ... generally YES a .22 will be a tad harder.
This IMO due to greater pellet mass being accelerated creating a greater 'Bump' upon firing along with the fact that a heavier pellet is in the barrel longer than a smaller bore light pellet. So motion of the rifles shot cycle is slightly more by the time pellet exits muzzle.
Thanks Scott. Your explanation sounds reasonable. I had not thought of the pellet weight affecting accuracy in that way.
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A friend of mine had the same problem with his .22 tx200 hc.
Problem solved after getting to 14 fpe and start using jsb exact 14.3 grain,
she shoots one pellet on the other now.
Thanks Piperman. Off the top of my head, I don't know what FPE mine is shooting. It should be slightly higher, I think. It is the stock spring and seal configuration. I did replace the spring guide to eliminate some twang.
I am shooting the JSB exacts you mention, as well as the 15.89gr. My rifle seems to shoot fairly well with RWS super domes also.
Edit: Correction, the JSB pellets I have are 13.43 gr and the 15.89gr. Had my numbers wrong on the lighter pellet.
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Another few considerations is how clean is the barrel and has the rifle ever been taken apart de burred and lubed and is it still breaking in . How long have you had the rifle
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Thanks Mulby, I find your observations interesting and thank you for sharing them.
Booger, Thank you for your input as well. Unfortunately, I do not have a HW branded rifle in 22 cal. In the back of my mind I was wondering if one would be any better shooting than my TX in 22 cal.
nced, Thanks for your comments. I have been shooting only at 10 yds since the cold weather has me pretty much house bound :'(. I have tried several ways of holding the rifle, and realize each gun is different. It just seems I don't have to work as hard to get tight groups with the .177 rifles. My HW97 is about the same weight as the TX, but is easier to shoot, IMO. My lighter rifles in .177 (HW30s and HW50s) are also more consistant, although less FPE output.
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Grauhanen, Thanks for the comment. I am happy to hear you also found the .177 cal a little more accurate. At least I am pretty certain my TX is performing as well as it should. Sometimes when everything is right, I can get very good groups and other times, not so much.
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Another few considerations is how clean is the barrel and has the rifle ever been taken apart de burred and lubed and is it still breaking in . How long have you had the rifle
Hello Don,
I just cleaned the barrel with Goo Gone. I bought the rifle barely used a year or so ago and broke it down for a polish and lube using Mccarri lubes and I installed a new spring guide. I have shot a few hundred pellets through it since the lube tune. Cleaning the barrel did seem to help somewhat. I don't think the gun is shooting terribly, but is just a little more fussey with hold and pellet types.
I think everyone has provided excellent feedback and ideas answering my questions, and I feel better knowing the conclusions of others confirm what I was seeing in my own rifles.
Again, not taking anything away from the TX, but it does seem to be more challenging in 22 cal.
One more time, thanks to everyone for sharing your thoughts and experiences.
Tom
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Another few considerations is how clean is the barrel and has the rifle ever been taken apart de burred and lubed and is it still breaking in . How long have you had the rifle
Hello Don,
I just cleaned the barrel with Goo Gone. I bought the rifle barely used a year or so ago and broke it down for a polish and lube using Mccarri lubes and I installed a new spring guide. I have shot a few hundred pellets through it since the lube tune. Cleaning the barrel did seem to help somewhat. I don't think the gun is shooting terribly, but is just a little more fussey with hold and pellet types.
I think everyone has provided excellent feedback and ideas answering my questions, and I feel better knowing the conclusions of others confirm what I was seeing in my own rifles.
Again, not taking anything away from the TX, but it does seem to be more challenging in 22 cal.
One more time, thanks to everyone for sharing your thoughts and experiences.
Tom
When I clean my rifles I use a crown saver. I have also found some pellets like to be lubed. Here is a link on what I like to use (I should note I like goo gone too):
http://www.mac1airgunshop.com/krytech-kit-w-crown-saver-p/krytechkit.htm (http://www.mac1airgunshop.com/krytech-kit-w-crown-saver-p/krytechkit.htm)
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Another few considerations is how clean is the barrel and has the rifle ever been taken apart de burred and lubed and is it still breaking in . How long have you had the rifle
Hello Don,
I just cleaned the barrel with Goo Gone. I bought the rifle barely used a year or so ago and broke it down for a polish and lube using Mccarri lubes and I installed a new spring guide. I have shot a few hundred pellets through it since the lube tune. Cleaning the barrel did seem to help somewhat. I don't think the gun is shooting terribly, but is just a little more fussey with hold and pellet types.
I think everyone has provided excellent feedback and ideas answering my questions, and I feel better knowing the conclusions of others confirm what I was seeing in my own rifles.
Again, not taking anything away from the TX, but it does seem to be more challenging in 22 cal.
One more time, thanks to everyone for sharing your thoughts and experiences.
Tom
When I clean my rifles I use a crown saver. I have also found some pellets like to be lubed. Here is a link on what I like to use (I should note I like goo gone too):
http://www.mac1airgunshop.com/krytech-kit-w-crown-saver-p/krytechkit.htm (http://www.mac1airgunshop.com/krytech-kit-w-crown-saver-p/krytechkit.htm)
Thanks Jesse. I will look into these products.
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;D One other question did you smooth and polish the spring ends when you lubed the rifle because this makes a difference also and a small dab of moly or ultimox will significantly reduce torque when you fire the rifle
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Having shot a .22 and .177 R9, I find it substantially easier to maintain groups with the .177 for all the reasons Scott mentioned.
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Depends on the gun...
Hw 80 & 90 and Diana 54 are easier to shoot accurate in .22 than .177
My opinion and only
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Depends on the gun...
Hw 80 & 90 and Diana 54 are easier to shoot accurate in .22 than .177
My opinion and only
I have no first hand experience shooting either gun you mentioned, however I would have to agree on principle simply because it wouldn't seem to be a good thing to squish all that receiver swept volume through a relatively small hole pushing a .177 cal pellet with such a stiff coil spring! Seems to me that the fatter cals would be better suited to those honkin large/heavy piston guns!
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Depends on the gun...
Hw 80 & 90 and Diana 54 are easier to shoot accurate in .22 than .177
My opinion and only
I have no first hand experience shooting either gun you mentioned, however I would have to agree on principle simply because it wouldn't seem to be a good thing to squish all that receiver swept volume through a relatively small hole pushing a .177 cal pellet with such a stiff coil spring! Seems to me that the fatter cals would be better suited to those honkin large/heavy piston guns!
My R1/HW80 .177 only shoots 875FPS and has very good accuracy. :) Then again she will visit the spa when my FWB returns home. :)
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Depends on the gun...
Hw 80 & 90 and Diana 54 are easier to shoot accurate in .22 than .177
My opinion and only
I have no first hand experience shooting either gun you mentioned, however I would have to agree on principle simply because it wouldn't seem to be a good thing to squish all that receiver swept volume through a relatively small hole pushing a .177 cal pellet with such a stiff coil spring! Seems to me that the fatter cals would be better suited to those honkin large/heavy piston guns!
My R1/HW80 .177 only shoots 875FPS and has very good accuracy. :) Then again she will visit the spa when my FWB returns home. :)
Oooooo....a nice docile tune level for sure! With the weight of your R1 and that tune level, it must be a joy to shoot!
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Depends on the gun...
Hw 80 & 90 and Diana 54 are easier to shoot accurate in .22 than .177
My opinion and only
I have no first hand experience shooting either gun you mentioned, however I would have to agree on principle simply because it wouldn't seem to be a good thing to squish all that receiver swept volume through a relatively small hole pushing a .177 cal pellet with such a stiff coil spring! Seems to me that the fatter cals would be better suited to those honkin large/heavy piston guns!
My R1/HW80 .177 only shoots 875FPS and has very good accuracy. :) Then again she will visit the spa when my FWB returns home. :)
Oooooo....a nice docile tune level for sure! With the weight of your R1 and that tune level, it must be a joy to shoot!
She is a (Santa Rosa) 30 year old R1. I am kinda hoping after new seals and orings she will do the 900~950 range. :)
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;D One other question did you smooth and polish the spring ends when you lubed the rifle because this makes a difference also and a small dab of moly or ultimox will significantly reduce torque when you fire the rifle
Yes, I did polish the spring ends along with the other deburring. I can't remember if the TX had a steel tophat, but if it did, I replaced it with delrin along with the new snug spring guide. The shot cycle seems very nice IMO, but I'm no expert by any means.
Oh, I also shimmed the cocking shoe forward to eliminate impact on it when firing. The trigger is just great, probably the best I own. The rifle is most likely fine, I just find it more difficult to shoot accurately than my .177's.
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Having shot a .22 and .177 R9, I find it substantially easier to maintain groups with the .177 for all the reasons Scott mentioned.
Thanks, that is what I am finding also.
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Depends on the gun...
Hw 80 & 90 and Diana 54 are easier to shoot accurate in .22 than .177
My opinion and only
Thanks Kostas, I'm sure there will be individual rifles that will behave differently. Thank you for the input.
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.22 is easier for me to shoot accurately in my mid to high power springers.
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;D That could be it I started with a Gamo Whisper and once I was able to clean deburr and CDT trigger along with a lube she became a decent shooter at 25 yards out to 35 or 40. Then I went to the D460 .177 magnum springer so I had a very steep learning curve or I would have looked for a suitable tree to bend them around . The good news is I am now a much better shot than I was 2 years ago
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.22 is easier for me to shoot accurately in my mid to high power springers.
That's interesting and opposite the experience I'm having. I only have the one 22 cal springer, and a Crosman Co2 in 22 cal. Oh, and a couple Co2 pistols.
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;D That could be it I started with a Gamo Whisper and once I was able to clean deburr and CDT trigger along with a lube she became a decent shooter at 25 yards out to 35 or 40. Then I went to the D460 .177 magnum springer so I had a very steep learning curve or I would have looked for a suitable tree to bend them around . The good news is I am now a much better shot than I was 2 years ago
I haven't ruled out me as the only problem here. I have good days and bad days shooting. I was in the basement just a little while ago, and noticed I was having problems focusing on the target. I had to keep adjusting the objective lens from time to time. Getting old is not fun, but better than not getting old ;D.
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;D many of us that have passed a certain age are much happier looking at blurry green grass than fuzzy brown roots ::) ;D
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;D many of us that have passed a certain age are much happier looking at blurry green grass than fuzzy brown roots ::) ;D
Haha! I fully agree. ;D ;D
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I just got curious and since I have an Airhawk in .177 and a Blackhawk Elite - now wearing wood and a shortened .22 barrel, I thought I'd see how different they were.
Both were given the same basic home tune per CDT general springer tuning info using Maccari lubes and new piston seals. The Airhawk is stock except for a new spring (wore the first one out, still have it, it was only shooting around 500 FPS when I replaced it but it shot beautifully) and seal from ARH. The Blackhawk Elite got a wood stock and .22 barrel (from FDAR) as well as a new seal from ARH. 5" was taken off the barrel and 2" off the back of the stock, it's a little short so I'm about to add a recoil pad to gain back an inch. Both got their stock scopes replaced.
I can feel that they're different, I just can't quite put my finger on what it is. I'm partial to the .22 carbine. It handles so much better being more compact. Rested, again I'm going with the BHE. Maybe I did a better job with it's tune, it has a better trigger and a smoother cycle.
Both put out roughly the same energy. The Airhawk shoots RWS Superdomes (8.3gr) at 832 FPS for 12.8 FPE, the BHE shoots RWS Superdomes (14.5gr) at 634 FPS for 13 FPE.
I like the .22 for now, I can't say it's more accurate but between the two springers I have it's easier to shoot, easier to handle the pellets too.
Here's a target I shot today. 10 meters, sitting, rested, hand between front rest and stock, elbows on the table, stock held to shoulder. I've shot better groups but for the quick comparison, it'll work. 5 groups of 5 for each, Airhawk on top Blackhawk on bottom.
Blue
Edit: forgot to list distance to target
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I just got curious and since I have an Airhawk in .177 and a Blackhawk Elite - now wearing wood and a shortened .22 barrel, I thought I'd see how different they were.
Both were given the same basic home tune per CDT general springer tuning info using Maccari lubes and new piston seals. The Airhawk is stock except for a new spring (wore the first one out, still have it, it was only shooting around 500 FPS when I replaced it but it shot beautifully) and seal from ARH. The Blackhawk Elite got a wood stock and .22 barrel (from FDAR) as well as a new seal from ARH. 5" was taken off the barrel and 2" off the back of the stock, it's a little short so I'm about to add a recoil pad to gain back an inch. Both got their stock scopes replaced.
I can feel that they're different, I just can't quite put my finger on what it is. I'm partial to the .22 carbine. It handles so much better being more compact. Rested, again I'm going with the BHE. Maybe I did a better job with it's tune, it has a better trigger and a smoother cycle.
Both put out roughly the same energy. The Airhawk shoots RWS Superdomes (8.3gr) at 832 FPS for 12.8 FPE, the BHE shoots RWS Superdomes (14.5gr) at 634 FPS for 13 FPE.
I like the .22 for now, I can't say it's more accurate but between the two springers I have it's easier to shoot, easier to handle the pellets too.
Here's a target I shot today. 10 meters, sitting, rested, hand between front rest and stock, elbows on the table, stock held to shoulder. I've shot better groups but for the quick comparison, it'll work. 5 groups of 5 for each, Airhawk on top Blackhawk on bottom.
Blue
Edit: forgot to list distance to target
Thanks for sharing your results. Looks like both are doing equally well for you. I like the carbine length rifles also. Have never been a fan of long guns.