GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: AHMSA on January 23, 2015, 12:44:05 AM
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Hello Everyone,
A springger I own had a gas ram failure several days ago. I've only had the gun for a few months and it's still under warranty. I now have the option to switch it to a spring piston. I know I paid for the gas piston and I know there are many advantages to a gas ram (smoother cycle, less vibration, no spring fatigue, and works better in cold weather). However, I'm worried the same issue happens again. I'm wondering if gas ram failures are more common than spring piston failures.
Any opinions on the subject?
Thanks in advance.
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From my experience and what I have seen, they both tend to fail at near equal rates.
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First off, if the gun is less than a year old the strut failure is probably a warranty issue. If it's a Crosman they'll usually even pay return shipping. Remove anything you've added as you won't get the same gun back from Crosman - it'll be a new one.
As far as the ram itself, I've got over a year and several hundred rounds through a Nitro Venom - no ram issues. They usually hold up pretty well. You'll hear of guns with early spring failures as well.
On the other hand I've got a couple of Dianas with springs, one of which was made in 1969, the other in 1989. I think both have their original springs.
Sometimes springs twang. Springs add torque to the shot cycle. Otherwise they're pretty comparable. Each has pros and cons.
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A few comments:
smoother cycle,
Well....I personally know of only ONE advantage of a ram over a spring and that is the lack of twang over most stock spring guns, however with a properly fitted spring guide the springer is also twang and vibration free!
no spring fatigue
A spring doesn't need an oring sealed piston under pressure to work, and as you found out, rams can leak down. When there is a leakdown the only fix is to replace the whole ram, or for the more expensive rams like the Theoben variety, they can be disassembled and rebuilt but this requires a high pressure pump to recharge the ram.
works better in cold weather
Why would you believe this? A piston gun is a piston gun with the same characteristics regardless if the spring is coiled steel or compressed gas. You still have a piston with a piston seal sliding in a receiver or compression tube. Something frequently not mentioned is the fact that the "rammer" also used a piston seal (just like a "springer") and the ram is harder on the piston seal making seal replacement more frequent.
Some advantages of a steel coil spring piston guns:
1. Easier to cock than "rammers" for equal power output.
2. Have a softer shot cycle than a "rammer" which is easier on optics.
3. High end aftermarket coil springs cost only about $20 to replace when needed.
Anywhoo.......I'm completely satisfied with my coil spring R9 and when I have to replace a spring every few years it can be done in less than 1/2 hour.
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I have about 12,000 through my NVD. No problems with power at all.
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http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=50162.msg475152;topicseen#msg475152 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=50162.msg475152;topicseen#msg475152)
figured others would find this interesting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlPylqmGWLo#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlPylqmGWLo#ws)
they even mention the new umarex Reaxis gas piston 8)
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Thanks for the information everyone.
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Some Crosman gas pistons can have a loose fit in the compression chamber causing it to cant at an angle. There for premature failure. There was a sleeve sold by a vendor (no longer available) to keep the piston straight.
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Thanks for the info Paul. My gun is a Hatsan not a Crosman but I wanted to keep the discussion general regardless of manufacturer. I'm just wondering if the benefits of a gas ram (assuming there are any) outweigh the problems. As I mentioned before, I have to option to go with either one and I'm debating which one to go for.
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http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=50162.msg475152;topicseen#msg475152 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=50162.msg475152;topicseen#msg475152)
figured others would find this interesting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlPylqmGWLo#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlPylqmGWLo#ws)
they even mention the new umarex Reaxis gas piston 8)
Very interesting vid for sure! I do question the statement that a "rammer" cocks easier than a springer though. Years ago I shot a .25 cal Beeman Kodiac magnum (Patriot) with factory spring and had no issues cocking it multiple times and it was shooting 21.91 grain .25 Diana Domes that chronied at 800fps (about 31fpe). Not too long after I had the privilege of TRYING to shoot a Beeman Crow magnum (Eliminator) rammer and at 60 pounds of cocking effort it was a "gut buster" for me to cock even though the fpe was a bit lower (about 28fpe). LOL....right then and there I decided that if I were given a Crow Magnum I would sell it! Actually, both the Kodiac and the Crow Magnum were too large and honkin heavy for me, but I was able to cock the spring piston gun and the "rammer" only with great effort!
Anywhoo......thanks for the link, very interesting opinions for sure!
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I agree. I did find the video very interesting.
They mentioned that a gas piston gun is nice until you carry and try to shoot it only to find out that the gas has leaked... Sounds familiar, doesn't it? However, a spring could break too.
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but springs are much cheaper , easy to vary their power by cutting them , more potential sources to get new ones and don't have a potential shelf life because they're not pressurized %100 of the time . just keep them straight and dry so they don't rust .
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I agree. I did find the video very interesting.
They mentioned that a gas piston gun is nice until you carry and try to shoot it only to find out that the gas has leaked... Sounds familiar, doesn't it? However, a spring could break too.
What...a spring can break like this...........
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/2052014/1406300008_220672151_BrokenSpring.jpg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=54197)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/2052014/1406299783_2137884024_SpringBreak.jpg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=54196)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
This was a good after-market spring that cost about $20 and I used it in my .177 R9 for several years and a couple 10s of thousands of shots considering that I buy and shoot about 10,000 pellets per year. I simply made up another spring kit on a good after-market spring from my parts bin and after cutting the tight guides and inserting them into the spring it took me all of about 10 minutes to install the new kit! Actually, with my R9 I can remove and replace the spring kit, plus piston seal, plus re-lube the gun in about 1/2 hour for another few years of service!
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you may find these videos interesting .
Hatsan 125 Sniper Vortex .22 Cal Review & Velocity Test Vs Spring Version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOo6Og6WIFM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOo6Og6WIFM)
Hatsan 125 Sniper .22 Cal Cold Weather Test Vortex Vs Spring Piston
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9SHD2Tp2Ck (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9SHD2Tp2Ck)
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Gamo or Diana, I had problems with the OEM steel springs. They used to break after an estimated range from 2k to 4k rounds; before that, continuously losing relevant power.
As a renowned (in Brazil) brand (Elite) says their 'gas ram' may last 100k rounds, and, as the gas itself is not subjected to fatigue, it made sense to me.
I replaced in my 2 Gamo. Both were did by authorized (by Elite) gunsmiths, at their workshops.
Considering only my Gamo rifles, I use more frequently the stronger one, its gas spring has leaked after estimated 10k rounds, and about 18 months old after replacement. I called Elite and the answer was a single "warranty period is one year" (period). I emailed, at least twice, the manufacturer (FNA) asking about their quality control results (number of rounds), but didn't get any answer at all.
Btw, the vendor in case got so embarassed.., and sold to me a new one by the cost price (50% off).
As we may see on that very interesting round table video, "on paper" (theoretically) gas ram makes sense, but what to expect from manufacture quality..?
To me, the objective answer comes from the 'one year' warranty period. If 'they' could assure a high grade manufacture quality, the warranty period could/should be much longer.
JMO.
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It sounds like I should go with the spring piston. Thanks everyone for your input. You guys are very helpful.
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Gas ram all the way!!!!
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Although I love things that go boing, I vote ram all the way on this one.
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the Beeman RX/HW 90 series gas rams are user rebuild-able very easily and inexpensively, PLUS, they are power adjustable.
i have an RX and a Benjamin NP Trail.
I've re-built the RX once in the 24 years I've owned it.
the NP...i made a delrin guide for the ram to keep it centered and have had no problems...yet
personal preference? the Beeman RX.
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the OP is swapping a hatsan , not buying another gun .
how much is the Beeman RX/HW 90 ?
and how much is all the support gear to rebuild them and pump them up/adjust their pressure ?
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Apparently gas rams have their fans... Do you guys think the benefits are what's listed in my original post and what Ed added to the list (smoother cycle, less vibration, no spring fatigue, works better in cold weather, and no twang over most stock spring guns)? Or did I miss something?
Indeed, the problem is in a Hatsan and I'm asking about replacing the gas ram with a spring piston. Additionally, what might be "re-buildable" and "fixable" with ease to some people, might be extremely difficult to other.
Many of the things more experienced people talk about on this site, just fly over my head. I can shoot okay and I love shooting magnum springgers (and other guns) but I'm far from being an airgunsmith. I have never taken apart an air rifle and I think if I ever do take one apart, I won't be able to reassemble it.
My question was more in line of which ones fail more often and if the benefits of a gas ram are worth it, if it tends to fail sooner than a coil spring.
Thanks everyone for the input. I have learned a lot from everyone's' comments.
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Apparently gas rams have their fans... Do you guys think the benefits are what's listed in my original post and what Ed added to the list (smoother cycle, less vibration, no spring fatigue, works better in cold weather, and no twang over most stock spring guns)? Or did I miss something?
Indeed, the problem is in a Hatsan and I'm asking about replacing the gas ram with a spring piston. Additionally, what might be "re-buildable" and "fixable" with ease to some people, might be extremely difficult to other.
Many of the things more experienced people talk about on this site, just fly over my head. I can shoot okay and I love shooting magnum springgers (and other guns) but I'm far from being an airgunsmith. I have never taken apart an air rifle and I think if I ever do take one apart, I won't be able to reassemble it.
My question was more in line of which ones fail more often and if the benefits of a gas ram are worth it, if it tends to fail sooner than a coil spring.
Thanks everyone for the input. I have learned a lot from everyone's' comments.
You and I are in the same boat. Whenever somebody starts talking technical jargon, I go right to sleep. May as well be Greek they are speaking for all the sense it makes to me. I'm Captain Klutz when it comes to anything beyond simple bolt on parts and even then it can be a struggle. I tackled a BNM breech and shroud last summer, and to make an embarrassing story short, I had to send the mess I made back to them to get it straightened out. Fortunately they are a great company and their customer service is top notch. They sent me back all new parts and all I had to pay was the shipping. I managed to get it all working and learned a valuable lesson. Leave modding to those who have the aptitude.
The lesson served me well last summer when my Nitro Venom lost its piston. I sent it to my good friend Jeff and he replaced it and did some other tweaks and now she is super smooth. Dusky, as I call her, is the one exception to the rule. A couple years ago I replaced the barrel, which had been shortened by the previous owner, with a Trail NP shrouded barrel. I even replaced the pivot washers with a set of Gene's washers and to my amazement and joy the gun actually worked quite well. I even got a lot of compliments on how cool she looked. 8) Crosman even copied my idea with the Varmint Prowler, which came out a few months after I posted pics of my gun on GTA lol. Hmm, maybe a lawsuit is in order. :o ::) ;D :P
Anyway, to finish the story, I've had some high end springers, a TX200 and a Diana 54, and I have sold the springers and kept the gassers. 'Nuff said. ;D
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;D Ok I confess to being a capable tool user and although I will approach any AG tear down with hours of online research with a thread post here to ask for input on common pitfalls then proceed full speed ahead. Just did it with an S510 with good results and once me and my new to me RX2 .177 get broken I will do it again for the Gas Spring. That's just my DNA and that has been me since age 4 to present at 68 years old. At this point I can say that I like any Ag that shoots well and Accuracy is "King" in my book. I don't have enough trigger time with the RX2 to form an objective opinion about the Gas Spring yet but the RX2 is an accurate hammer so far just be aware that like all magnum "Springers" requires muscle and technique to cock.
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Gas ram all the way!!!!
+1 but a quality Gas Ram. Maybe an RX2 :)
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;D Ok I confess to being a capable tool user
That's just my DNA and that has been me since age 4 to present at 68 years old.
My brother (RIP) said his worst mistake "was picking up a wrench", because he never put it down.
My youngest was 3 when he saw me removing vents in the trailer to clean the ducts. The next day I came home to find all the vents removed. LOL This is the boy who one day will work on my car. ;)