GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => Air Gun Gate => Topic started by: DavidS on January 13, 2015, 11:03:53 PM
-
What advantages do a 20 to 25 FPE PCP have over a 20 to 25FPE pumper? That is assuming equal accuracy.
This is a question that I have asked myself repeatedly.
With a PCP you pump hundreds or thousands of strokes for usually about 30 to 40 consistent shots. With pumper you pump about 6 to 15 times per shot, just before the shot.
With a PCP you have to have an air source on hand if you run low on air, and need or want to continue shooting with out returning home. With a pumper the air source is the atmosphere around you combined with the pump built into the AirRifle.
Ok many people use electric high pressure compressors to fill there PCP's and tanks for refills. That is an electric motor doing the pumping, still doing it though. And I am rarely near a high pressure compressor when hunting, and certainly would not wish to carry a large air tank, or even a couple of small air tanks.
So my question is: Realistically what is the advantage of a PCP over a pumper? And the inverse, what is the advantage of a pumper over a PCP?
This is equal parts a thought exercise and an intrigue as to what people find to be better about each power plant.
-
What advantages do a 20 to 25 FPE PCP have over a 20 to 25FPE pumper? That is assuming equal accuracy.
If indeed having the same accuracy, I would say the act of pumping--particularly the type of pumping that is generally required to charge a >20fpe pumper--degrades ones ability to achieve a steady hold. There's just no cheating the effects of heart rate, respiration, and muscle fatigue. That is not to say that it will necessarily be enough of an effect to dramatically degrade the shooter's performance, but even if you're an Olympic caliber athlete with a resting heart rate of 45bpm, physical exertion of any amount will have at least some effect.
With a PCP, the pumping can be done in advance. If I charge up a couple of 13ci bottles in the evening, on tap the next day is over 100 shots in .177 cal at 16fpe and 50 shots in .22 cal at 33fpe. That's more shooting than I will do on most any imaginable day. I simply don't leave civilization for extended periods of time so the "limited" shot count is of no practical consequence. However if I did, a pumper or a springer would be in strong consideration.
-
Good question.
-
What advantages do a 20 to 25 FPE PCP have over a 20 to 25FPE pumper? That is assuming equal accuracy.
If indeed having the same accuracy, I would say the act of pumping--particularly the type of pumping that is generally required to charge a >20fpe pumper--degrades ones ability to achieve a steady hold. There's just no cheating the effects of heart rate, respiration, and muscle fatigue. That is not to say that it will necessarily be enough of an effect to dramatically degrade the shooter's performance, but even if you're an Olympic caliber athlete with a resting heart rate of 45bpm, physical exertion of any amount will have at least some effect.
Valid point. And it is true that a 20FPE Pumper like a Crosman 140/1400 at15 pumps, or similar does take a bit more effort than lower power pumpers.
And as a second thought, when your hunting you would usually have your pumper charged long before you locate your prey, thus I would think for that situation the lighter weight of the pumper an advantage (hiking with more or less weight?). Just thinking and rambling a bit.
-
That's true, if I'm stalking a squirrel, I'm not going to wait until I'm within range and then clack, clack, clack my pumper. In most small game hunting situations, that one shot is sufficient but there have been plenty of times that I have taken multiple squirrels back to back by virtue of being able to quickly chamber another pellet in a PCP rifle. If I were instead holding a >20fpe pumper, I have to be concerned about both the sound of pumping and the time it takes to put enough pumps into it that I can take that second shot. Plus there's always a little adrenaline flowing in those situations, so combine that with the physical effects of pumping and I'm also at a disadvantage from a hold and trigger control perspective.
-
That's true, if I'm stalking a squirrel, I'm not going to wait until I'm within range and then clack, clack, clack my pumper. In most small game hunting situations, that one shot is sufficient but there have been plenty of times that I have taken multiple squirrels back to back by virtue of being able to quickly chamber another pellet in a PCP rifle. If I were instead holding a >20fpe pumper, I have to be concerned about both the sound of pumping and the time it takes to put enough pumps into it that I can take that second shot. Plus there's always a little adrenaline flowing in those situations, so combine that with the physical effects of pumping and I'm also at a disadvantage from a hold and trigger control perspective.
Good points. While I always have my 2289 charged and ready to go as a back up or second shot, and I have quieted the pumping enough on the pumpers I have, it is still true that it takes time to pump one of them back up to full power (even though you only need 3 pumps with a 20FPE pumper to get squirrel hunting power (7 to 8 FPE at the muzzle, still 5.5FPE at 25 yards).
I can see the repeat shots being a plus for the PCP.
-
if you're hunting i don't see where the pumping of the MSP is a issue , just pump it up as you enter the woods or leave your yard . why wait till you see something to shoot to start pumping ? unless something is wrong with the MSP it should hold the charge for days if not weeks or maybe longer . if noise is the problem in the hunting area .... the fuzzy side of velcro makes a big difference , FWIU felt tabs work well too . my walnut pump arm is quieter than the DBO arm that came with it but that can be muted some too by filling in the hollow areas with permatex .
but a PCP gives some bragging rights ....... till you run out of air with no pump . hehehe @ darksiders ;)
-
if you're hunting i don't see where the pumping of the MSP is a issue , just pump it up as you enter the woods or leave your yard . why wait till you see something to shoot to start pumping ? unless something is wrong with the MSP it should hold the charge for days if not weeks or maybe longer . if noise is the problem in the hunting area .... the fuzzy side of velcro makes a big difference , FWIU felt tabs work well too . my walnut pump arm is quieter than the DBO arm that came with it but that can be muted some too by filling in the hollow areas with permatex .
but a PCP gives some bragging rights ....... till you run out of air with no pump . hehehe @ darksiders ;)
Yep. That is how I hunt with a pumper :) .
And yes one of the positives of pumpers is that the refill supply is all around you :) . HPA Pumps are heavy, and so are the air tanks.
-
I'm a little puzzled by the apparent double standard about shot counts and availability of "fuel".
In making an argument in favor of an MSP it is often cited that in a hunting situation, one shot is enough.
But then turn around and cite running out of air in a PCP is a disadvantage. In all but the most unusual of circumstances, 50 to 100 shots is simply not a real limitation.
-
I'm a little puzzled by the apparent double standard about shot counts and availability of "fuel".
In making an argument in favor of an MSP it is often cited that in a hunting situation, one shot is enough.
But then turn around and cite running out of air in a PCP is a disadvantage. In all but the most unusual of circumstances, 50 to 100 shots is simply not a real limitation.
I can only speak for those that I know how hunt. A few times per year it is time for hunting trips, leaving behind all roads, cars, etc, etc for weeks at a time. Thus giving the big stock piles of meat.
With a PCP you will run out of air. And remember you have to carry all of your prey plus what ever you use to preserve your prey to last till you get home, so carrying an air pump or air tank is a bad idea.
-
I disagree that PCPs have to be heavier than pumpers, and offer in evidence my Grouse Gun.... It uses a 2260 tube....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/22%20PCP/2260PCPCarbineEmail.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/22%20PCP/2260PCPCarbineEmail.jpg.html)
Virtually identical in weight, and identical in size and layout to my Uber-Carbine, which uses a 2200 tube and linkage....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Uber-Carbine/Uber-CarbineEmail.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/Uber-Carbine/Uber-CarbineEmail.jpg.html)
The former holds enough air for 16 shots at 20 FPE on a single fill, and I have never had to refill it in the field in 5 years of Grouse Hunting, despite taking my daily limit many times.... The latter is tuned for two shots of 12 FPE and requires 20 pumps to do that (10 pumps per shot).... While both of them are single shot in the photos above, I have since fitted the PCP with a repeater breech that holds an 8-shot PRod clip, giving me 8 shots immediately available, and 2 clips per fill, and this at over 50% more power than the pumper.... The pump linkage and piston in the pumper weighs about the same as the difference in the tubes....
I think it should be pretty clear why I prefer the PCP for hunting.... Should I require even more air, I have a pony tank available which weighs less than 2 lbs. and will refill the gun 6 times, giving me enough air for at least a week of continuous hunting.... or enough to take over 50 birds (allowing 2 shots each, which is more than I use).... Our possession limit here, for a single hunt, is only 15 anyway, and I typically get about twice that in a whole season.... That one small tank will last me an entire hunting season and more....
Bob
-
I'm a little puzzled by the apparent double standard about shot counts and availability of "fuel".
In making an argument in favor of an MSP it is often cited that in a hunting situation, one shot is enough.
But then turn around and cite running out of air in a PCP is a disadvantage. In all but the most unusual of circumstances, 50 to 100 shots is simply not a real limitation.
I can only speak for those that I know how hunt. A few times per year it is time for hunting trips, leaving behind all roads, cars, etc, etc for weeks at a time. Thus giving the big stock piles of meat.
With a PCP you will run out of air. And remember you have to carry all of your prey plus what ever you use to preserve your prey to last till you get home, so carrying an air pump or air tank is a bad idea.
I had a .25 Condor that would get 60 shots per fill. 60 shots is a lot for one day of hunting. Then again I can not hunt anymore due to physical limitations. That being said when finances come together I would like a Mac 1 tuned Benjamin 397 tuned for easier pumping.
-
If those you know that hunt do so by leaving for weeks at a time, that is certainly not something I can deny.
What I dispute is that such a scenario is typical, thus my comment about "in all but the most unusual of circumstances".
Even for long hunting trips, most will be at a camp of some sort where one could certainly recharge a PCP in the evenings.
And where the goal is to build big stockpiles of meat, I don't believe for a second that the typical hunter approaches that goal with a 20fpe air rifle. Not saying it can't be done. Just saying most hunters don't look to fill their freezer with meat by shooting a truckload of squirrels and rabbits. It is way more practical to do it with 2 deer and a hog, and if that is to be done by way of an air rifle, that is squarely within the realm of big bore PCPs.
I say this as someone who has a freezer full of squirrels, but I did so because I enjoy hunting them. Most definitely not because it was an effective way to spend my time to feed myself and my family.
-
I disagree that PCPs have to be heavier than pumpers, and offer in evidence my Grouse Gun.... It uses a 2260 tube....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/22%20PCP/2260PCPCarbineEmail.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/22%20PCP/2260PCPCarbineEmail.jpg.html)
Virtually identical in weight, and identical in size and layout to my Uber-Carbine, which uses a 2200 tube and linkage....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Uber-Carbine/Uber-CarbineEmail.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/Uber-Carbine/Uber-CarbineEmail.jpg.html)
The former holds enough air for 16 shots at 20 FPE on a single fill, and I have never had to refill it in the field in 5 years of Grouse Hunting, despite taking my daily limit many times.... The latter is tuned for two shots of 12 FPE and requires 20 pumps to do that (10 pumps per shot).... While both of them are single shot in the photos above, I have since fitted the PCP with a repeater breech that holds an 8-shot PRod clip, giving me 8 shots immediately available, and 2 clips per fill, and this at over 50% more power than the pumper.... The pump linkage and piston in the pumper weighs about the same as the difference in the tubes....
I think it should be pretty clear why I prefer the PCP for hunting.... Should I require even more air, I have a pony tank available which weighs less than 2 lbs. and will refill the gun 6 times, giving me enough air for at least a week of continuous hunting.... or enough to take over 50 birds (allowing 2 shots each, which is more than I use).... Our possession limit here, for a single hunt, is only 15 anyway, and I typically get about twice that in a whole season.... That one small tank will last me an entire hunting season and more....
Bob
I see why you prefer PCP. I still have the parts from my old HPA conversion, using a 66 tube (that was a fun project). So I know it is possible to make a PCP very light weight, and at a very low cost. Though my HPA pump (a separate project), did not dry the air, so I had to use an external tank to allow the water to separate, so I got mostly dry air into my project HPA Carbine.
Though as to the available power, why did not you keep your Crosman 140 and figure out a way to improve the trigger and keep the extra power?
I have already been looking at a lot of info on the 140 trigger/sear and the hammer to see what may be possible to maintain reliability while reducing the trigger pull, and keeping the trigger break consistent. I know it is possible.
-
If those you know that hunt do so by leaving for weeks at a time, that is certainly not something I can deny.
What I dispute is that such a scenario is typical, thus my comment about "in all but the most unusual of circumstances".
Even for long hunting trips, most will be at a camp of some sort where one could certainly recharge a PCP in the evenings.
And where the goal is to build big stockpiles of meat, I don't believe for a second that the typical hunter approaches that goal with a 20fpe air rifle. Not saying it can't be done. Just saying most hunters don't look to fill their freezer with meat by shooting a truckload of squirrels and rabbits. It is way more practical to do it with 2 deer and a hog, and if that is to be done by way of an air rifle, that is squarely within the realm of big bore PCPs.
I say this as someone who has a freezer full of squirrels, but I did so because I enjoy hunting them. Most definitely not because it was an effective way to spend my time to feed myself and my family.
To each his own. I could spend a week hunting deer and hog with my Powder Burners, or I could spend the same week hunting squirrel, rabbit, rock dove, etc and get 3 times more meat, so it is what works to feed the family.
I do hunt around home to help maintain the supply (and because I enjoy hunting). Though that is just go out get one or two and be home in time for lunch.
-
Please speak up if I missed something.
Ok to recap (what has been said that actually applies to the thread):
PCP's Advantages:
Quicker repeat shots.
Can be as light weight as pumpers.
Pumpers advantages:
Only have to carry the rifle, no extra support equipment.
Generally easier to work on in the field (though I have yet to have the need to do so).
Unknowns:
Reliability over time. We know that pumpers can last more than a century if just basic maintenance is adhered to, we have no idea how long a current generation PCP will last with only basic maintenance.
Equals:
Both power plants are capable of being applied to equally quiet rifles.
-
I find the pcp with more advantages than a pumper.
your comparison regarding pumping does not fit all, I don't pump but even then those multiple pumps for multiple shots still outperform multiple pumps per shots.
you don't have to have a air source on hand, many pcp's will provide 20+ shots, and if strictly hunting you can only carry so much if goofing around and wasting shots you still will gather enough meat. and with many pcp's one can carry a extra air tube or buddy bottle. I get 90 shots on my r10 way more than enough air.
the only advantage a pumper has over a pcp is if the shooter goes out unprepared meaning a near empty bottle and no way to fill.
the other advantage is multiple kills with a pcp and stealth, with a pumper it's shoot, clack clack clack until you build up pressure. what animal is going to sit around waiting for you to get a second shot after alerting any critter around there's danger around.
the only advantage of a pumper is it's self contained. after that it loses ground on many avenues in my opinion.
-
Why not have the best of both worlds with a Millennium Pumper.....
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=77542.0;topicseen (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=77542.0;topicseen)
-
I find the pcp with more advantages than a pumper.
your comparison regarding pumping does not fit all, I don't pump but even then those multiple pumps for multiple shots still outperform multiple pumps per shots.
you don't have to have a air source on hand, many pcp's will provide 20+ shots, and if strictly hunting you can only carry so much if goofing around and wasting shots you still will gather enough meat. and with many pcp's one can carry a extra air tube or buddy bottle. I get 90 shots on my r10 way more than enough air.
the only advantage a pumper has over a pcp is if the shooter goes out unprepared meaning a near empty bottle and no way to fill.
the other advantage is multiple kills with a pcp and stealth, with a pumper it's shoot, clack clack clack until you build up pressure. what animal is going to sit around waiting for you to get a second shot after alerting any critter around there's danger around.
the only advantage of a pumper is it's self contained. after that it loses ground on many avenues in my opinion.
I understand. Though what is clack clack clack. It is easy to quiet pumping noise. With my pumpers you would not hear me pumping them if we were standing shoulder to shoulder in a sound proof room.
I note your view, and it is included in my above recap. Both the positive you mention of PCP's and the negative you mention.
-
Why not have the best of both worlds with a Millennium Pumper.....
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=77542.0;topicseen (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=77542.0;topicseen)
:) will you gift me the $1000 (or what ever it costs)?
-
Why not have the best of both worlds with a Millennium Pumper.....
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=77542.0;topicseen (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=77542.0;topicseen)
:) will you gift me the $1000 (or what ever it costs)?
Follow the plans and build you own.....
-
why did not you keep your Crosman 140 and figure out a way to improve the trigger and keep the extra power?
Simple, when I go hunting, I'm not going to exercise my biceps and provide cardio for my heart.... The 140, at 20 FPE, is a BEAST to pump, and you have to do that for every shot.... Plus, it's a LOT heavier than either of my Grouse Guns.... A good gun, yes, but not my idea of an ideal hunter.... For about the same size and weight I have a QB79 HPA that gives me 80 shots at 26 FPE on a tank....
Bob
-
Kind of like the difference between a muzzleloader and a bolt action rifle or a Semi-auto for that matter.
When squirrel and rabbit hunting with a shotgun I never carried more than 20 rounds and never shot half that many. My disco would cover that easy. Set up 25 fpe my TalonP carbine would get 20+ usable shots for sure. Both these guns are light and easy to handle. No way to know how many hours I spent hunting with pumpers. Countless times I wished for a quick second shot. Miss a squirrel or rabbit and many times I've pumped as quietly and quickly as possible to get a second shot if presented. Hard to do with Clack clack clack clack clack , 5 will do it, dang it too late. I have ran through the woods pumping and following a squirrel from tree to tree. Now that I'm older I find an tree with lots of squirrel activity and sit back and wait. One shot, if lucky maybe 2 wait a bit and it's not long till the woods return to normal. Not so easy with a pumper.
Plinking I don't mind pumping for a while. Shooting 5-10 shot strings much easier with a PCP and my big ole bottle sitting beside me on the table.
PCP is just easier once you have a tank and shoebox.
-
;D If light weight and stealth the PCP has the edge because as a powerful "repeater the occasions of needing a follow up or second target of opportunity when it only takes 1 sec to reload and shoot the second target . If you are talking self contained for prolonged wilderness survival the springer has a definite edge since all you need is the rifle and a supply of its favorite pellet . there are pros and cons for all AGs and some of the decision is based on user prefrence. For me I would want three rifles maybe 4 Daystate Regal XL .25 , D460 .177 TX 200 MK III .22 and my newest addition the Beeman RX2 .20. I can take anything up to a White Tail and down to a field mouse or anything in between with ease and survive well for years.
-
Shoot what you want, carry what your willing, enjoy your choice.
All the other talk or arguments made is simply defending that choice or pushing an agenda.
Just sayin :o
-
I love pumpers but when we pump we stress the gun slightly and in Bobs case I do believe he was bending the tube getting the last bit of power out of one during testing...
I stick with a pump cup and use large valve volume to get 20fpe I feel accepting the lower pressure limit puts less stress on the gun but even
with a valve large enough to get 17.5+ fpe on about 1000-1200 psi (17 pumps) you can feel that it stresses the gun some...
This is the same gun you want to be accurate... over time it takes its toll... the pcp on the other hand switches most of the stress elsewhere...
-
Shoot what you want, carry what your willing, enjoy your choice.
All the other talk or arguments made is simply defending that choice or pushing an agenda.
Just sayin :o
[/qurote]
Amen.
BZ
-
We can gain some of the multi shot advantage by adding a thick walled valve extension and tap it to add a small tank to our pumpers... I have not done the math but I believe the mk tube can do a 1 shot 40-50 fpe or two 20 ish fpe shots on about 60 pumps with the right size tank...
it still stresses what we want accuracy from but I do like self contained.
It could be done for about 200 dollars... the more you spend the better parts you can get. just like you can beef things up to take the stress better but you will pay($ and weight).
-
the pcp on the other hand switches most of the stress elsewhere...
Yeah, my wallet!
J/K ;)
-
the pcp on the other hand switches most of the stress elsewhere...
Yeah, my wallet!
J/K ;)
So I guess you are voting pumper ;) 8)
-
Shoot what you want, carry what your willing, enjoy your choice.
All the other talk or arguments made is simply defending that choice or pushing an agenda.
Just sayin :o
+1. Springers are my favorite. I want another multi-pump, probably a Sheridan. I want a pcp one day too. But I don't plan to sit here arguing which one is "best". Its the Ford vs. Chevy; 9mm vs .45; .270 vs 30-06 etc. type deal. The bottom line is it's an argument nobody can win.
Scotty
-
the pcp on the other hand switches most of the stress elsewhere...
Yeah, my wallet!
J/K ;)
So I guess you are voting pumper ;) 8)
Well I'm not really voting since I like them both. But if I was forced to pick one over the other I would probably pick PCP. I'm going on 47 and have health issues so I appreciate the ease of use with PCP's. If I was asked the same question in my teens, twenties or thirties I would have easily picked pumpers.
I currently have 6 PCP's and 4 pumpers in my arsenal.
-
My MSPs are my 20FPE guns & the PCPs are my 30+FPE guns. To me they're a source of entertainment & they're also tools. So what ever trips your trigger!
-
Can you actually get 20 fpe with a pumper? Maybe so, if you have the longest barrel, best internal parts, put some time in the build . And then pump how many times?
A pcp, can get that out of the box, easily. Stock. And if you miss a critter, the follow up shot will be possible.
Just arguing with you, as I am building a 1322 now. They are fun. But I see the value of PCP too.
-
;D I own and use all 3 and enjoy all 3 , If I had to choose it would be based on the particular occasion. For me accuracy is paramount I will not own a rifle or pistol that does not satisfy that criteria first and foremost. Weight and effort to charge although a consideration not #1 on my list. Enjoy the debate that is what I enjoy . Another consideration is the Millennium Pumper which is still in development by a fellow GTAer around $1,5 00 40fpe multi shot and looks to be an interesting rifle once it is in production. I will probably add one to my collection for the wow factor
-
If those you know that hunt do so by leaving for weeks at a time, that is certainly not something I can deny.
What I dispute is that such a scenario is typical, thus my comment about "in all but the most unusual of circumstances".
Even for long hunting trips, most will be at a camp of some sort where one could certainly recharge a PCP in the evenings.
And where the goal is to build big stockpiles of meat, I don't believe for a second that the typical hunter approaches that goal with a 20fpe air rifle. Not saying it can't be done. Just saying most hunters don't look to fill their freezer with meat by shooting a truckload of squirrels and rabbits. It is way more practical to do it with 2 deer and a hog, and if that is to be done by way of an air rifle, that is squarely within the realm of big bore PCPs.
I say this as someone who has a freezer full of squirrels, but I did so because I enjoy hunting them. Most definitely not because it was an effective way to spend my time to feed myself and my family.
To each his own. I could spend a week hunting deer and hog with my Powder Burners, or I could spend the same week hunting squirrel, rabbit, rock dove, etc and get 3 times more meat, so it is what works to feed the family.
I do hunt around home to help maintain the supply (and because I enjoy hunting). Though that is just go out get one or two and be home in time for lunch.
The debate is interesting. But I'll disagree with this part. In the same week of hunting I took a 180 lb 8 pointer, and a 120 lb 6 pointer. I dare you to put that much meat in a freezer in a week with a 20 fpe hunter. The 180 lb 8 point took me 4 very long evenings to process alone. One of his hind legs alone was bigger than a few dozen huge rabbits. Heck one of his back straps alone weighed more than a few dozen rabbits.
And in full discloser I used a crossbow on the 8 and a PB on the 6.
Point being in 4 days, yup got them 4 days apart, in the same "work week" I completely filled a chest freezer. I don't care how many hours a day you spend with a 20 fpe hunter, you are not going to do that.
I like a good discussion. But "spin" is not one of my favorite things.
For me, I prefer a pumper over a pcp. I also prefer a good springer over a pcp. It is all in what one likes. All have advantages and disadvantages.
-
edit for accidental double post
-
Can you actually get 20 fpe with a pumper? Maybe so, if you have the longest barrel, best internal parts, put some time in the build . And then pump how many times?
A pcp, can get that out of the box, easily. Stock. And if you miss a critter, the follow up shot will be possible.
Just arguing with you, as I am building a 1322 now. They are fun. But I see the value of PCP too.
My steroided Benji 342 gets 21 FPE shooting 28 EunJins, with 12 pumps. So it's possible without a long barrel, but you definitely need some internal upgrades.
-
Shoot what you want, carry what your willing, enjoy your choice.
All the other talk or arguments made is simply defending that choice or pushing an agenda.
Just sayin :o
Now that first sentence is a truth.
-
Shoot what you want, carry what your willing, enjoy your choice.
All the other talk or arguments made is simply defending that choice or pushing an agenda.
Just sayin :o
+1. Springers are my favorite. I want another multi-pump, probably a Sheridan. I want a pcp one day too. But I don't plan to sit here arguing which one is "best". Its the Ford vs. Chevy; 9mm vs .45; .270 vs 30-06 etc. type deal. The bottom line is it's an argument nobody can win.
Scotty
Not looking for an argument. Just the opinions of people. I am genually interested in why people have there preference between PCP and MSP.
-
Can you actually get 20 fpe with a pumper? Maybe so, if you have the longest barrel, best internal parts, put some time in the build . And then pump how many times?
A pcp, can get that out of the box, easily. Stock. And if you miss a critter, the follow up shot will be possible.
Just arguing with you, as I am building a 1322 now. They are fun. But I see the value of PCP too.
You can get more than 20FPE with one of the oldies. A Crosman 140 with a flat head piston can produce 20FPE at 15 pumps. So yes the Pumpers can produce more than 20FPE at low pump counts.
See:
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=18193.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=18193.0)
-
Can you actually get 20 fpe with a pumper? Maybe so, if you have the longest barrel, best internal parts, put some time in the build . And then pump how many times?
A pcp, can get that out of the box, easily. Stock. And if you miss a critter, the follow up shot will be possible.
Just arguing with you, as I am building a 1322 now. They are fun. But I see the value of PCP too.
And thank you. You brought up a good question, for a separate thread.
-
Hmm kind of tough question because a lot of it is personal needs;here are my thoughts on why I went with a pcp.
Like you say they can both be made very quiet.
(although it might be possible to make a pcp quieter than a pumper at higher fpe)
But I wanted to be able to reload without moving much, I understand that a pumper can made
quiet to pump, but can you reload from a shooting position with only a slow movement of your hand?
that is what I like about pcp's.That movement can give me away when I'm hunting, possibly scaring off other local game.
Plus my back-up shot is a full 20fpe(say to take another rabbit that stood up when you shot etc.)
And it actually take less total pumps for me to take 10, 23fpe shots from my disco
then for a pumper that take 10 pumps per shot for a 20 fpe shot
It takes me less than 50 pumps to fill my disco but it would take a pumper 100 pumps
I can do all mine at once and relax while the pumper is continually upping his heart rate.
If you are always out in the woods for days at a time and are shooting tons of round then yes a
pumper has an advantage but if your total is only 60ish shots there are many fairly light weight pcp that
will do that on one fill.So for my uses I went with a pcp, but I still respect pumpers and their abilities.
Joseph
-
Reloading with out having to move much is a good point. I usually only have two shots before I have to pump (one from my main Rifle, and one from my 2289). And there have been times that my potential second or third target has spotted me as a result.
-
I like that you argue for your light weight pumper, and now you are carrying two rifles??? A PCP pump, do not weigh that much, so your logic is clearly flawed.
-
I like that you argue for your light weight pumper, and now you are carrying two rifles??? A PCP pump, do not weigh that much, so your logic is clearly flawed.
It does not matter what kind of AirRifle I carry, I will always have a backup. So 2 PCP's and 2 PCP pumps??
If you really want to harp on what extra I carry my .36 revolver weighs more than any two of my AirRifles.
-
I like that you argue for your light weight pumper, and now you are carrying two rifles??? A PCP pump, do not weigh that much, so your logic is clearly flawed.
:) :) :) :)
.....just a very bad case of Envy, that continually needs to be justified over and over again ;)
-
;D David having back up is not a bad idea ever when I had my 28ft fishing boat I had 4 working bilge automatic pumps and a manual back up pump and a 12ft inflatable for if it really hit the fan . When I hunted for big game always have a 44 mag Ruger Red Hawk w/8" barrel. I have always been a belt and suspenders kind of guy when in the field or on the water. Back up is not a bad thing.
-
I like that you argue for your light weight pumper, and now you are carrying two rifles??? A PCP pump, do not weigh that much, so your logic is clearly flawed.
:) :) :) :)
.....just a very bad case of Envy, that continually needs to be justified over and over again ;)
:) No i have had a couple of HPA AirRifles, and did not like them do to external equipment requirements.:)
Though when I have tried Springers, HPA/PCP, and CO2 I have found myself envying pumpers, so I end up going back to what is good for me, pumpers. ;)
-
;D David having back up is not a bad idea ever when I had my 28ft fishing boat I had 4 working bilge automatic pumps and a manual back up pump and a 12ft inflatable for if it really hit the fan . When I hunted for big game always have a 44 mag Ruger Red Hawk w/8" barrel. I have always been a belt and suspenders kind of guy when in the field or on the water. Back up is not a bad thing.
Yes definitely.
It seems as if so long as I have the backups I never need them, though if I do not have the backups I will invariably need them. :) I know that it just seems that way, though it really does seem that way. :)
-
I may have missed something in this discussion, but are there many stock pumpers that can be had that are 20 FPE rifles? The Benjamin 392 and ...?
On the other hand, there are many 20 FPE PCP's from which to choose.
-
I may have missed something in this discussion, but are there many stock pumpers that can be had that are 20 FPE rifles? The Benjamin 392 and ...?
On the other hand, there are many 20 FPE PCP's from which to choose.
Crosman 140, 1400. There are others, all older ones. There are reports that some Sharp Innova II's will do 20FPE, though that seems to be hit and miss from what I have read. I would guess that if you get lucky and get the high end of QC possibly a .22 Webley Rebel.
Show me a stock 392 that can do 20FPE and I will be impressed. Now a tuned one yes it can be brought up to shooting greater than 20FPE. I think it likely that the older 392's may have been able to perform in that range stock.
-
Stock? Only one I know of is the FX Independence/Indy, which in .22 is rated @ 30 FPE. My Steroided Benji 342 makes 20+FPE with 12 pumps.
-
Stock? Only one I know of is the FX Independence/Indy, which in .22 is rated @ 30 FPE. My Steroided Benji 342 makes 20+FPE with 12 pumps.
You forgot the Crosman 140 :) .
-
I seriously doubt that a STOCK 140 or 1400 will ever see 20 FPE.... The pump cup will deform before you reach those pressures, especially with stock port sizes.... Once you fit an F-T-P, and hog out the ports, then yes, but the trigger pull is so hard as to be nearly useless....
Will a STOCK 392 hit 20 FPE?....
Bob
-
I seriously doubt that a STOCK 140 or 1400 will ever see 20 FPE.... The pump cup will deform before you reach those pressures, especially with stock port sizes.... Once you fit an F-T-P, and hog out the ports, then yes, but the trigger pull is so hard as to be nearly useless....
Will a STOCK 392 hit 20 FPE?....
Bob
+1
-
I seriously doubt that a STOCK 140 or 1400 will ever see 20 FPE.... The pump cup will deform before you reach those pressures, especially with stock port sizes.... Once you fit an F-T-P, and hog out the ports, then yes, but the trigger pull is so hard as to be nearly useless....
Will a STOCK 392 hit 20 FPE?....
Bob
Thank you for the correction. As I have not yet gotten my 140, I was going only on the numbers that others have posted for there stock 140.
-
How are you keeping game refrigerated for weeks while out hunting? Conversely if you some place very cold how do keep from it ending up freezer burnt? Not to even mention the other issues, I have friends who climb mountains, amatuers but dedicated, they don't typically stay out for weeks and they get their gear delivered to base camp with helicopters.
You must sleep somewhere leave you pump there, any PCP holds enough shots for one days hunting.
Also I question your math if a pumper takes 6 pumps to get to 20fpe for thirty shots that is 120 pumps no way can a PCP take more pumps. The pump volume on your typical standup pump is much larger than any pumper. I don't know how much bigger, but I bet professor rsterne does.
The only pumpers I know of that can even hit 20fpe are the Indy and the millennium pumper the good professor created and is now being put into production.
-
This discussion, then, is about a modified pumper or one that is no longer made (Crosman 1400?) compared to a PCP, both shooting at about 20 FPE? And it is also about which is best to take for an extended hunting trip of a week or more with the aim of filling a freezer full of rabbits, squirrels, birds, and whatever else that is in season that might fall to a 20 foot pound air rifle? And further, one should take a "back up" gun along for the ride in case the primary gun fails so the hunt can continue in order to "feed the family"?
It seems that this kind of paints the discussion into a corner.
-
How are you keeping game refrigerated for weeks while out hunting? Conversely if you some place very cold how do keep from it ending up freezer burnt? Not to even mention the other issues, I have friends who climb mountains, amatuers but dedicated, they don't typically stay out for weeks and they get their gear delivered to base camp with helicopters.
You must sleep somewhere leave you pump there, any PCP holds enough shots for one days hunting.
Also I question your math if a pumper takes 6 pumps to get to 20fpe for thirty shots that is 120 pumps no way can a PCP take more pumps. The pump volume on your typical standup pump is much larger than any pumper. I don't know how much bigger, but I bet professor rsterne does.
The only pumpers I know of that can even hit 20fpe are the Indy and the millennium pumper the good professor created and is now being put into production.
Because SteveG, when one lives in "Cloud-Coo-Coo Land" ANYTHING is possible. It doesn't have to be true, one just has to believe its true and then it magically is! ;)
BZ
-
Well there are a few modified pumpers that can hit 20 FPE, but none of them will do that in 6 pumps from zero pressure.... The only ones that have a chance on doing that are Retained Air Pumpers (also known as Air Conserving Pumpers or ACPs), which are basically a PCP with an onboard pump.... The FX and my Millennium Pumper are prime examples, and I am not aware of any others that hit that 20 FPE....
Bob
-
well if I got the valve hot enough Maybe ;) ::)
-
How are you keeping game refrigerated for weeks while out hunting? Conversely if you some place very cold how do keep from it ending up freezer burnt? Not to even mention the other issues, I have friends who climb mountains, amatuers but dedicated, they don't typically stay out for weeks and they get their gear delivered to base camp with helicopters.
You must sleep somewhere leave you pump there, any PCP holds enough shots for one days hunting.
Also I question your math if a pumper takes 6 pumps to get to 20fpe for thirty shots that is 120 pumps no way can a PCP take more pumps. The pump volume on your typical standup pump is much larger than any pumper. I don't know how much bigger, but I bet professor rsterne does.
The only pumpers I know of that can even hit 20fpe are the Indy and the millennium pumper the good professor created and is now being put into production.
The stockpile hunting takes place when it is very cold out. And I take vacuum bags, and a little hand pump vacuum pump for the meat (yes it takes a lot of extra work, though all of the meat is good).
Yes we sleep somewhere, in the late afternoon we find a spot near where we happen to be and make camp (meaning that we carry all of our supplies from camp to camp).
I had always thought this to be the standard method of stockpile hunting. Now the supply is kept up through the rest of the year by simple day hunting as needed in the mornings.
As to 20FPE power levels, that is at least 12 (or 15) pumps with a power tuned 392, or 140. Never heard of 6 pumps for 20FPE.
I am not sure about the exact number of pumps on PCP's, I know it took my last project HPA Rifle with home made HPA pump about 200 strokes, and that gave around 25 good shots.
The millennium pumper is way out of my price range even to build.
-
A Disco takes about 3 pumps per 23 FPE shot....
Bob
-
How are you keeping game refrigerated for weeks while out hunting? Conversely if you some place very cold how do keep from it ending up freezer burnt? Not to even mention the other issues, I have friends who climb mountains, amatuers but dedicated, they don't typically stay out for weeks and they get their gear delivered to base camp with helicopters.
You must sleep somewhere leave you pump there, any PCP holds enough shots for one days hunting.
Also I question your math if a pumper takes 6 pumps to get to 20fpe for thirty shots that is 120 pumps no way can a PCP take more pumps. The pump volume on your typical standup pump is much larger than any pumper. I don't know how much bigger, but I bet professor rsterne does.
The only pumpers I know of that can even hit 20fpe are the Indy and the millennium pumper the good professor created and is now being put into production.
Because SteveG, when one lives in "Cloud-Coo-Coo Land" ANYTHING is possible. It doesn't have to be true, one just has to believe its true and then it magically is! ;)
BZ
Ok I am tired of being called a lie-er to my face when I am telling the truth. You finally managed to scare me away from these forums, at least for a bit to cool down. I may be back in a couple of days.
-
Lets keep it respectful guys, please.
-
I got the 6 pumps number from your first post on this topic.
With a PCP you pump hundreds or thousands of strokes for usually about 30 to 40 consistent shots. With pumper you pump about 6 to 15 times per shot, just before the shot.
Either that gun was dumping air after the shot or your pump was less effective than is typical
I was not honestly aware stockpile hunting was still a thing, I thought that went out of fashion with the invention of agriculture. I am sure in your situation it makes sense. To me it sounds like a temporary job would be much easier.
-
@Bubba Zanetti:
I must apologize for jumping on with that response. That should have been in a PM. I apologize for being a bit quick to anger.
-
I got the 6 pumps number from your first post on this topic.
With a PCP you pump hundreds or thousands of strokes for usually about 30 to 40 consistent shots. With pumper you pump about 6 to 15 times per shot, just before the shot.
Either that gun was dumping air after the shot or your pump was less effective than is typical
I was not honestly aware stockpile hunting was still a thing, I thought that went out of fashion with the invention of agriculture. I am sure in your situation it makes sense. To me it sounds like a temporary job would be much easier.
I see the missunderstanding. I ment that for many things you would only need to pump 6 times if you have a pumper that does 20FPE at 15 pumps. I guess I was not clear :-[ . My fault.
-
I am done talking about hunting. I seem to be to often misunderstood in that area.
My interest in this thread is the comparison between equally capable MSP's and PCP's. I apologize for my role in taking things off topic.
-
I'd vote PCP
-
Gotta say .... Stroking ones gun that much is a young mans game, those of us with a few more years behind us tend to use those hands for other tasks like massaging and rubbing ;D
All in fun ;)
-
Gotta say .... Stroking ones gun that much is a young mans game, those of us with a few more years behind us tend to use those hands for other tasks like massaging and rubbing ;D
All in fun ;)
LOL.
-
There's just no comparison, many 20 FPE PCPs have way more than 100 shots on tap once filled ( heck 40-50 FPE PCPs have upward to 60-70 shots),
.... no need for any additional pumping once filled, how much stuff can you kill in one outing ?
again a pumper cannot even touch a multishot PCP,...not even remotely close,...in all aspects.
Dreaming is fine, reality is different.
-
There's just no comparison, many 20 FPE PCPs have way more than 100 shots on tap once filled ( heck 40-50 FPE PCPs have upward to 60-70 shots),
.... no need for any additional pumping once filled, how much stuff can you kill in one outing ?
again a pumper cannot even touch a multishot PCP,...not even remotely close,...in all aspects.
Dreaming is fine, reality is different.
I understand your perspective, and respect it.
My personal perspective happens to be that I do not like PCP's, mostly do to the required support equipment. A couple of other reasons as well.
We all have our own preference. I would say that they are all correct for the person.
-
DavidS:
When you help fellow GTA members with their Daisy and Crosman MSP's, you are a an asset to this forum, and you have helped many and should be proud. As your love of MSP's has given you some knowledge that can be passed to others allowing them to take good a AG and possibly make it great. Ultimately, that is what makes the GTA a fantastic forum, the free exchange of information that is sometimes hard won or paid for in some form or fashion, but freely given to those who come seeking it out to use on their AG.
However, when a forum member decides to create threads that are nothing more than a ruse to bait forum members into a 'friendly' argument that is nothing more than veiled arrogance at its core. I believe, when these self promotions are buried within the contact of a thread, they should be called out. Not to embarrass the author of the threads, although that is sure to happen, but to ensure the integrity of the forum and what it stands for: The love of air gunning.
Under the love of air gunning, all are welcome, all have their place and all are a joy to shoot.
So lets keep the integrity high shall we?
Peace,
BZ
-
DavidS:
When you help fellow GTA members with their Daisy and Crosman MSP's, you are a an asset to this forum, and you have helped many and should be proud. As your love of MSP's has given you some knowledge that can be passed to others allowing them to take good a AG and possibly make it great. Ultimately, that is what makes the GTA a fantastic forum, the free exchange of information that is sometimes hard won or paid for in some form or fashion, but freely given to those who come seeking it out to use on their AG.
However, when a forum member decides to create threads that are nothing more than a ruse to bait forum members into a 'friendly' argument that is nothing more than veiled arrogance at its core. I believe, when these self promotions are buried within the contact of a thread, they should be called out. Not to embarrass the author of the threads, although that is sure to happen, but to ensure the integrity of the forum and what it stands for: The love of air gunning.
Under the love of air gunning, all are welcome, all have their place and all are a joy to shoot.
So lets keep the integrity high shall we?
Peace,
BZ
That is the idea of this thread, keeping the integrity high. And letting each learn more about there preferred platform. I have said none other.
My hope is that by comparing the two each of us can learn more about what we like. All AirRifles/AirPistols have there place, and every one has there preference. Comparison is a good way of learning.
-
I've been staying out of this, but, the Crosman 140 is a really poor choice to try to get a consistent 20fpe out of. First, it's a 12fpe gun with the recommended 10 pump max. Trying to get a lot more out of it is just asking for a stress related failure. Second, the valve, trigger on the 140 is a blow off valve. The more you pump it up, the harder the trigger is to pull. A steroided 392 might get you there, but I've pumped my 140 enough to know that you aren't going to get anything remotely resembling a quick follow up shot at game.
I don't own a PCP, but with your 20fpe requirement, you need either a PCP or magnum springer for follow up shots.
-
I've been staying out of this, but, the Crosman 140 is a really poor choice to try to get a consistent 20fpe out of. First, it's a 12fpe gun with the recommended 10 pump max. Trying to get a lot more out of it is just asking for a stress related failure. Second, the valve, trigger on the 140 is a blow off valve. The more you pump it up, the harder the trigger is to pull. A steroided 392 might get you there, but I've pumped my 140 enough to know that you aren't going to get anything remotely resembling a quick follow up shot at game.
I don't own a PCP, but with your 20fpe requirement, you need either a PCP or magnum springer for follow up shots.
I can understand what you are saying. I am expecting to get around 700FPS with CPHP equals 15.5FPE at ten pumps once I finish tuning mine, this based on the numbers from others. The trigger is an issue, though to pump 5 times for 9.9FPE and enough for a large portion of my hunting, I will be happy to do 99% of my shooting at 5 or 6 pumps. And i am aware that shooting a 140 at 20FPE would be quite difficult regardless of what else is done.
20FPE is just a common number for PCP's so I kind of pulled it out of my hat. I guess it would be better to have asked for equal FPE vs equal FPE :) . Would have caused less misunderstanding.
-
I must apologize if it is felt that any of my responses are argumentive and or coersive. That is the last thing I would want, I am aware that my interpersonal skills are poor, and as such I sometimes do not come off in the intended manner. It was pointed how my responses are interpreted and this makes me feel bad. I do wish more people would be willing to just PM me and let me know, as I feel terrible now.
This is one of the areas that I have had difficulty. As a result of what I thought was indifference in another recent thread that I created I deleted all of my posts and had the moderator lock it and move it to non productive. Another recent thread got out of hand and began containing survival related posts until it got locked, and I did not know how to keep it on track, I think if I could have better kept that one on track it would still be going.
Now I am told how people interpret my responses in this thread as argumentative and coercive, and I truly feel terrible, as that was never the intent. I only intended to continue the comparisons. so I offer 1000 apologies for this whole thread.
-
I've been staying out of this, but, the Crosman 140 is a really poor choice to try to get a consistent 20fpe out of. First, it's a 12fpe gun with the recommended 10 pump max. Trying to get a lot more out of it is just asking for a stress related failure. Second, the valve, trigger on the 140 is a blow off valve. The more you pump it up, the harder the trigger is to pull. A steroided 392 might get you there, but I've pumped my 140 enough to know that you aren't going to get anything remotely resembling a quick follow up shot at game.
I don't own a PCP, but with your 20fpe requirement, you need either a PCP or magnum springer for follow up shots.
There you go, a pumper expert.
20 FPE ? ...PCP is king many times compared to a pumper.
Pumpers are what they are, a very limited airgun in many respects, to try to compare it to a PCP just isn't fair :) :) ...like bringing a child to a man's game ;) ;)
-
I must apologize if it is felt that any of my responses are argumentive and or coersive. That is the last thing I would want, I am aware that my interpersonal skills are poor, and as such I sometimes do not come off in the intended manner. It was pointed how my responses are interpreted and this makes me feel bad. I do wish more people would be willing to just PM me and let me know, as I feel terrible now.
This is one of the areas that I have had difficulty. As a result of what I thought was indifference in another recent thread that I created I deleted all of my posts and had the moderator lock it and move it to non productive. Another recent thread got out of hand and began containing survival related posts until it got locked, and I did not know how to keep it on track, I think if I could have better kept that one on track it would still be going.
Now I am told how people interpret my responses in this thread as argumentative and coercive, and I truly feel terrible, as that was never the intent. I only intended to continue the comparisons. so I offer 1000 apologies for this whole thread.
David don't beat yourself up too much we occasionally get off on the wrong foot and step in doo doo I came off as a know it all the other day and had to clear the air with a PM, worst part is I inadvertently caused the problem and another member got spanked because of my words it happens we all have to get a little thicker skin sometimes
-
Good enough guys. Back to the subject at hand, air guns. :)
-
Well Nomadic Pirate I have to slightly disagree... and mad props on your skills...
though they where only 17+ fpe I carried a Benji and 2200 on my walkabouts back in the early 80s and would be out a couple months and self contained was King...
Now days it could be built a multi pump with a big enough reservoir for multiple shots at 20 to 50 fpe it would take some pumping but so does filling a pure PCP.
Some times self contained is the most important thing. Plus I put together my 20.6 fpe(in 20 pumps because of it being short stroke)MK1322 for less than $100 it is very accurate and I do not mind pumping...
Do you hand pump your monsters ;)
-
Well Nomadic Pirate I have to slightly disagree... and mad props on your skills...
though they where only 17+ fpe I carried a Benji and 2200 on my walkabouts back in the early 80s and would be out a couple months and self contained was King...
Now days it could be built a multi pump with a big enough reservoir for multiple shots at 20 to 50 fpe it would take some pumping but so does filling a pure PCP.
Some times self contained is the most important thing. Plus I put together my 20.6 fpe(in 20 pumps because of it being short stroke)MK1322 for less than $100 it is very accurate and I do not mind pumping...
Do you hand pump your monsters ;)
Cool. If you do not mind me asking, since you have done a number of high end builds with pumpers:
What do you think the easiest way to build a 2 to 3 shot pumper that would produce better than 20FPE for under 100 dollars, and what about a 30FPE single shot for under $100?
Sorry for the slight OT.
-
;D Manny is a purest he hand pumps I am Lazy so my hand pump is for emergencies or heaven forbid no power for my compressor . All kidding aside as can be seen in my signature I own a variety of AG's and shoot them all. I can find a nice used 392 in good condition I will own one of those as well and I will use it also and probably do some pesting as well with it
-
;D Manny is a purest he hand pumps
More Mad props for Manny then Cause that's how I feel also...
David in the other thread I said the Multi shot would be more like 200-300.
On the 30 fpe just do what I did for the Mk1322 but instead of cutting an inch off the pump tube make a valve extension and it will give you
about a .45 c.i. valve I used used parts to keep the cost down... That size and about 1500 psi (~40 pumps) should be close to 30 fpe...
-
The are not high end to me I am just enjoying myself...
-
Well Nomadic Pirate I have to slightly disagree... and mad props on your skills...
though they where only 17+ fpe I carried a Benji and 2200 on my walkabouts back in the early 80s and would be out a couple months and self contained was King...
Now days it could be built a multi pump with a big enough reservoir for multiple shots at 20 to 50 fpe it would take some pumping but so does filling a pure PCP.
Some times self contained is the most important thing. Plus I put together my 20.6 fpe(in 20 pumps because of it being short stroke)MK1322 for less than $100 it is very accurate and I do not mind pumping...
Do you hand pump your monsters ;)
If you out a couple of months you probably will have a basecamp, a handpump in your basecamp will not hinder one bit, handpumping a PCP especially in that low FPE range is by far easier than Clank, clank a pumper after every shot, a repeter PCP will give you instant follow up shots for whatever need you might have, not a chance with a pumper, .......and way more shots that you'll will ever use in several days out from a full charge.
Yeah I hanpump my PCPs, there was times that I would have up to 400 FPE guns, and still I would handpump
-
Well there are a few modified pumpers that can hit 20 FPE, but none of them will do that in 6 pumps from zero pressure....
This one does...
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f263/Dead-On/Airgun/IMG_6333.jpg)
-
Base camp well a couple times but mostly no. I started about Reno and headed north sort of on and off following the PCT...
some of the others where following some Paiute trails. but yep a few times I did just have a base camp. Had the need to be alone keep
moving finding beauty and permanence of the mountains and desert. Took me about 3 years to get it out of my system...
in the 1980s there where no pcp's just modded Benjis. Bob showed the way to multi shot pumpers... but honestly one usually did well enough.
-
Well there are a few modified pumpers that can hit 20 FPE, but none of them will do that in 6 pumps from zero pressure....
Pardon My francais, but what the heck is that!!??
This one does...
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f263/Dead-On/Airgun/IMG_6333.jpg)
-
Sweet! Sharps?
-
I have both PCPs & pumpers. But when it comes to which one is more useful, well the PCPs win. I really like my vintage "modified" pumpers & they're fun to shoot, but as stated by others before, that follow up shot & power are the deciding factors. I see my pumpers as that vintage car you keep in storage that are fun to drive on the weekends, but when it's time to go for a 2000 mile trip, you get into your modern car & go.
As for support equipment, I have a SCBA tank that I primarily use, but a hand pump really isn't that big of a deal to use either. Whether you're pumping up & down or side to side, both are a good workout.
-
Pardon My francais, but what the heck is that!!??
Titan Mohawk .22 cal. It's a 6-7 multi stroke pneumatic from England no longer made. It's a John Bowkett design. There are a few designs and stock variations. Titan went out of business and then the company Falcon was born. Falcon used a lot of the designs (and parts) from Titan guns. I have a Falcon FN-12 and some of the parts are interchangable with this Mohawk.
First three pumps weren't too difficult. But the next four or so got progressively harder with each pump. I sold the Mohawk a couple years back.
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f263/Dead-On/Airgun/IMG_6341.jpg)
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f263/Dead-On/Airgun/IMG_6334.jpg)
-
Dead-on: That is one sharp looking gun 8)
lol I didn't know about the Titan, I thought it was a Daystate Sportsman Mark II:
(https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/08-27-10-05-Daystate-Sportsman.jpg)
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2007/08/the-daystate-saga-part-3-a-different-daystate/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2007/08/the-daystate-saga-part-3-a-different-daystate/)
Joseph
-
That Mohawk is one nice pumper, WOW. I did not know that something like that was made.
I can understand the convenience of the follow up shot for sure. That is the reason that I have experimented with ACP as well as with HPA designs.
There are times that I wish that there was a best of both worlds, a 3+ shot ACP that you could adjust the power as low or as high as you want for the gun quickly for each and every shot. Though to my knowledge there is no best of both worlds.
-
That Mohawk is one nice pumper, WOW. I did not know that something like that was made.
I can understand the convenience of the follow up shot for sure. That is the reason that I have experimented with ACP as well as with HPA designs.
There are times that I wish that there was a best of both worlds, a 3+ shot ACP that you could adjust the power as low or as high as you want for the gun quickly for each and every shot. Though to my knowledge there is no best of both worlds.
There is. The FX Indendence & Indy.
-
Some guns that you would probably really like David are the Sharps pump rifles:
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2009/09/sharp-ace-the-sheridan-of-the-orient/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2009/09/sharp-ace-the-sheridan-of-the-orient/)
There was an entire series of quality rifle that show up from time to
time ranging from those incredible deal at $200 to collectors $700 but they are nice guns.
(the ace was the economy model I think)
(wish we had an importer picking up used ones in japan and shipping them over here...)
Joseph
-
That Mohawk is one nice pumper, WOW. I did not know that something like that was made.
I can understand the convenience of the follow up shot for sure. That is the reason that I have experimented with ACP as well as with HPA designs.
There are times that I wish that there was a best of both worlds, a 3+ shot ACP that you could adjust the power as low or as high as you want for the gun quickly for each and every shot. Though to my knowledge there is no best of both worlds.
There is. The FX Indendence & Indy.
A bit out of my price range :) . Also I did not know that they could be adjusted down to a 7FPE shot.
Thank you for the idea.
-
Some guns that you would probably really like David are the Sharps pump rifles:
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2009/09/sharp-ace-the-sheridan-of-the-orient/ (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2009/09/sharp-ace-the-sheridan-of-the-orient/)
There was an entire series of quality rifle that show up from time to
time ranging from those incredible deal at $200 to collectors $700 but they are nice guns.
(the ace was the economy model I think)
(wish we had an importer picking up used ones in japan and shipping them over here...)
Joseph
I have looked at the Sharp AirRifles. As I understand it they are about equals to the Crosman 140, is that correct?
-
That Mohawk is one nice pumper, WOW. I did not know that something like that was made.
I can understand the convenience of the follow up shot for sure. That is the reason that I have experimented with ACP as well as with HPA designs.
There are times that I wish that there was a best of both worlds, a 3+ shot ACP that you could adjust the power as low or as high as you want for the gun quickly for each and every shot. Though to my knowledge there is no best of both worlds.
There is. The FX Indendence & Indy.
A bit out of my price range :) . Also I did not know that they could be adjusted down to a 7FPE shot.
Thank you for the idea.
Not sure you can dial them down to only 7fpe. Why would you want to use such a low power range? Do you plan on fine tuning each & every shot according to whether you're shooting HOSP or a raccoon? That's being too nit picky.
-
That Mohawk is one nice pumper, WOW. I did not know that something like that was made.
I can understand the convenience of the follow up shot for sure. That is the reason that I have experimented with ACP as well as with HPA designs.
There are times that I wish that there was a best of both worlds, a 3+ shot ACP that you could adjust the power as low or as high as you want for the gun quickly for each and every shot. Though to my knowledge there is no best of both worlds.
There is. The FX Indendence & Indy.
A bit out of my price range :) . Also I did not know that they could be adjusted down to a 7FPE shot.
Thank you for the idea.
Not sure you can dial them down to only 7fpe. Why would you want to use such a low power range? Do you plan on fine tuning each & every shot according to whether you're shooting HOSP or a raccoon? That's being too nit picky.
No I am not that picky. Though if I am going to be doing a lot of short range paper punching I want it around 7FPE, if I am doing a lot of fur bearer hunting I want to dial it up around 15FPE, unless it is something on the larger side of small game, then crank it up.
Just my personal preference. I know that every one is different.
-
Pardon My francais, but what the heck is that!!??
Titan Mohawk .22 cal. It's a 6-7 multi stroke pneumatic from England no longer made. It's a John Bowkett design. There are a few designs and stock variations. Titan went out of business and then the company Falcon was born. Falcon used a lot of the designs (and parts) from Titan guns. I have a Falcon FN-12 and some of the parts are interchangable with this Mohawk.
First three pumps weren't too difficult. But the next four or so got progressively harder with each pump. I sold the Mohawk a couple years back.
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f263/Dead-On/Airgun/IMG_6341.jpg)
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f263/Dead-On/Airgun/IMG_6334.jpg)
Sweet! Sure looks nice! Thanks
-
;D Yes very nice I would love one of those for my collection