GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Crosman Airguns => Topic started by: avator on December 23, 2014, 10:25:40 PM
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Betty Lou and I made a trip to WM this afternoon to pick up our prescriptions. Seen a display of crosman 760s for $34.xx each. Well, we grabbed a couple just for giggles. In a nutshell... these are going back tomorrow. I can't believe what they have done to this classic. They might be for some people but, not for us.
Merry Christmas ya'll.
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why do you think that? i prefer the look of the old one, but have not shot the new one...
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I am curious also what the performance issues are with the new ones?
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Out of curiosity I've been looking at the WM offerings, as well as the better name big box store offerings. Seeing some unusual stuff to say the least. In addition to the low grade offerings as noted here, seeing weirdness coupled with low grade as well. Apparently the marketing guys are once again too comfy in bed with the accounting guys at these places, and its hitting the suppliers. In short, they see they sell a lot of something decent, so have their suppliers make even cheaper grade similar items they can buy for next to nothing, and push the beejeesus outta them at slightly lower prices. This looks like it might be a self correcting issue though as they'll likely see the typical high return and fast drop off in purchases.
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Agreed Paul...... These things are 100% cheap plastic. I was amazed it actually shot a pellet. I thought it was a toy. They weigh about a pound and you can squeeze the thin stock and almost break it with your fingers. There is no windage adjustment on the rear sight unless you want to bend it. Pellet loading is near impossible unless you use the "strip mag". I could go on but I won't. I really wanted to like them. I'm sorry guys, IMO they are junk.
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Now this is a 760....
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I have run acrossed similar difficulties with AirRifles as well. It seems like the low end to low midrange MSP rifles are mostely cheap. Thankfully the Daisy 880 & 901 are at least well built on the inside (despite the cheap plastic stock and forestock on the current 880's) so there is some quality to work with there.
I take it they have changed the breach since the last version if pellet loading is more difficult with out the clip. On the last 760 and 66 I had that both used the clips, loading pellets with out the clips was easy as pi (you know 3.14159265).
Now this is a 760....
+1
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They have to know there is a market for a 760 built like the one pictured. The wood stocks even go back beyond my time. 1st 760 I seen was around 1973-75. I had to stand up and pump my Benjamin and it wasn't easy. My cousin had a 760 and we could sit on the fence and take turns pumping and shooting that 760 with no problem.
I guess they figure there is no market for a USA made 760 that cost 100.00 + these days.
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I bought a 760 in 2001 and absolutely hated it and even though they were $25 a few weeks ago, I refused to buy one for my daughter.
I had a late 80's 66 I wish I had kept and fixed. I may just build up another 1322 carbine instead.
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Agreed Paul...... These things are 100% cheap plastic. I was amazed it actually shot a pellet. I thought it was a toy. They weigh about a pound and you can squeeze the thin stock and almost break it with your fingers. There is no windage adjustment on the rear sight unless you want to bend it. Pellet loading is near impossible unless you use the "strip mag". I could go on but I won't. I really wanted to like them. I'm sorry guys, IMO they are junk.
That brings back the memories of the last 760 I handled.. Without the stripper mag it was useless.. Never thought I'd see the day when one of the greats would be toppled..
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No kidding, it pains me to see such a preponderance of junk multi-stroke pneumatics on the market. It looks as though there is a glass ceiling at $50 for MSPs which have major deficiencies (compromises) in engineering and materials, while there are excellent values to be had in springers at the $100 price point (Ruger Blackhawk, Beeman RS2, etc.).
It sure seems like know the major manufacturers like Crosman could build a $100 pumper that would be worth having.
- Real barrel, not a soda straw. Daisy, you listening?
- Stabilized barrel - Properly engineered to keep the barrel from flopping around and ruining accuracy potential. Is it really so expensive to add a proper barrel band with grub screws to firm things up?
- 12fpe out of the box, with a long enough pump arm to give sufficient leverage to make pumping tolerable.
- Wood stock to give it some reasonable heft. Sure would make it feel like it is worth spending $100 for if I could pick it up off the shelf at Walmart and not slam the box into my nose because I underestimated that I was picking up a broom handle.
I have to assume there is just no market for it when the same $100 will buy an 18fpe springer that can be cocked with one stroke, despite the fact 99% of the buyers have neither the knowledge nor the persistence to shoot it properly.
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No kidding, it pains me to see such a preponderance of junk multi-stroke pneumatics on the market. It looks as though there is a glass ceiling at $50 for MSPs which have major deficiencies (compromises) in engineering and materials, while there are excellent values to be had in springers at the $100 price point (Ruger Blackhawk, Beeman RS2, etc.).
It sure seems like know the major manufacturers like Crosman could build a $100 pumper that would be worth having.
- Real barrel, not a soda straw. Daisy, you listening?
- Stabilized barrel - Properly engineered to keep the barrel from flopping around and ruining accuracy potential. Is it really so expensive to add a proper barrel band with grub screws to firm things up?
- 12fpe out of the box, with a long enough pump arm to give sufficient leverage to make pumping tolerable.
- Wood stock to give it some reasonable heft. Sure would make it feel like it is worth spending $100 for if I could pick it up off the shelf at Walmart and not slam the box into my nose because I underestimated that I was picking up a broom handle.
I have to assume there is just no market for it when the same $100 will buy an 18fpe springer that can be cocked with one stroke, despite the fact 99% of the buyers have neither the knowledge nor the persistence to shoot it properly.
I would like to see such a pumper, I would save up for it. As it sits, I have considered saving up for a Webley Rebel, though I am not sure if it is worth going through the potential 1 or 2 returns to get a decent one (would definitely have to take advantage of PA's 10 for $10). That is the issue, the couple of really good designs do not have the quality control needed to be worth the effort.
There is a reason I stick with the Daisy Powerline MSP's for the most part, even they have there issues though.
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Real barrel, not a soda straw. Daisy, you listening?
Stabilized barrel - Properly engineered to keep the barrel from flopping around and ruining accuracy potential. Is it really so expensive to add a proper barrel band with grub screws to firm things up?
12fpe out of the box, with a long enough pump arm to give sufficient leverage to make pumping tolerable.
Wood stock to give it some reasonable heft. Sure would make it feel like it is worth spending $100 for if I could pick it up off the shelf at Walmart and not slam the box into my nose because I underestimated that I was picking up a broom handle.
They did... iy was about 140 bux and we did not buy it... the 392/397
at least we did not buy 16 million of them... i got 1
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No kidding, it pains me to see such a preponderance of junk multi-stroke pneumatics on the market. It looks as though there is a glass ceiling at $50 for MSPs which have major deficiencies (compromises) in engineering and materials, while there are excellent values to be had in springers at the $100 price point (Ruger Blackhawk, Beeman RS2, etc.).
It sure seems like know the major manufacturers like Crosman could build a $100 pumper that would be worth having.
- Real barrel, not a soda straw. Daisy, you listening?
- Stabilized barrel - Properly engineered to keep the barrel from flopping around and ruining accuracy potential. Is it really so expensive to add a proper barrel band with grub screws to firm things up?
- 12fpe out of the box, with a long enough pump arm to give sufficient leverage to make pumping tolerable.
- Wood stock to give it some reasonable heft. Sure would make it feel like it is worth spending $100 for if I could pick it up off the shelf at Walmart and not slam the box into my nose because I underestimated that I was picking up a broom handle.
I have to assume there is just no market for it when the same $100 will buy an 18fpe springer that can be cocked with one stroke, despite the fact 99% of the buyers have neither the knowledge nor the persistence to shoot it properly.
I agree with your ideas Jason. I had a 20th Commemorative 760. Rifled barrel, wood stock and accurate! I smoked so many chipmunks with that thing. It was a workhorse and it was a great tool in teaching me the art of marksmanship. Having handled the 'new' 760's I knew right away I would have to get my older son a different air gun to start out his career on. I agree with what others have said: Why people buy them now is beyond me. Not accurate (compared to the old ones) and please spare me the speech about fixing the design flaws. I have to time to do maintenance on my AG's and shoot with my boys, not sit in the garage and work on AG's.
For 80.00 bucks my oldest shoots a XS-12 from Flying Dragon. Fun, very accurate mid powered AG for youth. The ONLY thing I don't like is its a springer. Its not very hold sensitive, just can't walk around with it cocked for pests. But for backyard, accurate shooting of army men, it works perfect ;D
I would add that 7-8 fpe, polymer stocks that are a bit thicker and a rifled barrel that is secure would do wonders for the 760. Keep the price around 60.00 bucks? If selling them for 25.00 bucks yields what we see, can't imagine the price can be that much more.
My youngest son, who is 4, is already being taught safety and the parts of guns for identification. He sits with us and helps sets targets and hands us pellets. I have been searching gun broker for an AG for him. Right now I have been looking at the older Crosman CO2 rifles. Why? Because after all these years they work the way they were intended too and built to last.
I refuse to unleash an AG on my kids that yields mediocre accuracy.
Rant complete 8)
BZ
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They did... iy was about 140 bux and we did not buy it... the 392/397
at least we did not buy 16 million of them... i got 1
Agreed, but that's my point. I look at the pains the manufacturers have gone through to get the price point down from $75 to $50, and from $50 down to $40, and now down to $35. That just reinforces my assumptions that the MSP market is extremely cost conscious, and in comparison to the $100 springer price point, I think a successful MSP needs a $100 cap. Not $130 - $150. I don't think the average Joe will buy an MSP for $130 with 900fps printed on the box when it's sitting next to a $100 springer on the shelf that boasts 1100fps. But if they can successfully market the advantages of no hold sensitivity (accuracy), ability to be pumped and ready to go (for pesting), lightweight, and not brutal on scopes (can save money there), then maybe more folks will reach for the MSP.
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Bill, thanks for that short review. I have been considering one, against my own best judgement. I already have 2 760's, a 1997 and a 1975. So I needed another like a hole in the head. And beside in the last 12 months I have bought 1/2 dozen new Crosmans and every single one had quality control issues. So while out the other day i had a choice, a new 760 or a Daisy 35, both right at $33. I came home with the Daisy and was blown away at it's out of the box accuracy. And it feels solid like all of the older all plastic ag's. So thanks for saving me $33 on an Ag I would return. I'll just make my next AG a Daisy 901.
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Now this is a 760....
Now you're talking! That's what I grew up shooting.
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my parents bought me a 760 for my birthday back in 1976 or so. i remember picking it out in the local sporting goods store. well , they hemmed and hawed because it was as pretty pricy at $37.00. you gotta figure if its still that price today it must be junk.
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Bill, thanks for that short review. I have been considering one, against my own best judgement. I already have 2 760's, a 1997 and a 1975. So I needed another like a hole in the head. And beside in the last 12 months I have bought 1/2 dozen new Crosmans and every single one had quality control issues. So while out the other day i had a choice, a new 760 or a Daisy 35, both right at $33. I came home with the Daisy and was blown away at it's out of the box accuracy. And it feels solid like all of the older all plastic ag's. So thanks for saving me $33 on an Ag I would return. I'll just make my next AG a Daisy 901.
I kinda blame this on you Stony. After I read about your $33 Daisy at TSC, we went and looked at them. The clerk had them rung up and I was pulling the old credit card out when a light went off in my head and I had him take them off the bill and put them back. That's when we went to WM and got this garbage.... J/K about blaming it on you. Anyhow, I must have had a feeling because I told Betty Lou to keep the WM receipt handy. Here is the kicker, you ain't going to believe what I am going to do next..... About a month ago, I went and bought one of those APX NXG Umarex things for $50. I put my homemade peep on it and I'm quite impressed with it. I'm gonna take these toys back and get Betty Lou one of those.
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Bill, thanks for that short review. I have been considering one, against my own best judgement. I already have 2 760's, a 1997 and a 1975. So I needed another like a hole in the head. And beside in the last 12 months I have bought 1/2 dozen new Crosmans and every single one had quality control issues. So while out the other day i had a choice, a new 760 or a Daisy 35, both right at $33. I came home with the Daisy and was blown away at it's out of the box accuracy. And it feels solid like all of the older all plastic ag's. So thanks for saving me $33 on an Ag I would return. I'll just make my next AG a Daisy 901.
I kinda blame this on you Stony. After I read about your $33 Daisy at TSC, we went and looked at them. The clerk had them rung up and I was pulling the old credit card out when a light went off in my head and I had him take them off the bill and put them back. That's when we went to WM and got this garbage.... J/K about blaming it on you. Anyhow, I must have had a feeling because I told Betty Lou to keep the WM receipt handy. Here is the kicker, you ain't going to believe what I am going to do next..... About a month ago, I went and bought one of those APX NXG Umarex things for $50. I put my homemade peep on it and I'm quite impressed with it. I'm gonna take these toys back and get Betty Lou one of those.
Lol. Tiss alright...I'll take the blame. Seriously tho.... the 35 rocks. I have been wondering if the Umarex was any good. Now Iknow ;)
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I've always wondered why - that if you were going to go to a plastic receiver, why would you mold the stock on as a separate piece?
AT the very least use a Daisy 851 type stock. Even if it was molded out of plastic, it would have more rigidity. Then you could drill it and fill the void with BB's and glue if you wanted extra weight.
Or mold the whole stock/receiver as one piece.
Sights need windage adjustment, and what really is the cost difference between a rifled and unrifled barrel? A couple of bucks?
On the store shelf, you could offer both versions and probably sell the rifled version for $10 more as the "premium" version.
Not looking for a supergun, but I beat the heck out my guns guns growing up and shot the &^^& out of them. They held up reasonably well and were reasonably accurate.
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Bill, thanks for that short review. I have been considering one, against my own best judgement. I already have 2 760's, a 1997 and a 1975. So I needed another like a hole in the head. And beside in the last 12 months I have bought 1/2 dozen new Crosmans and every single one had quality control issues. So while out the other day i had a choice, a new 760 or a Daisy 35, both right at $33. I came home with the Daisy and was blown away at it's out of the box accuracy. And it feels solid like all of the older all plastic ag's. So thanks for saving me $33 on an Ag I would return. I'll just make my next AG a Daisy 901.
I kinda blame this on you Stony. After I read about your $33 Daisy at TSC, we went and looked at them. The clerk had them rung up and I was pulling the old credit card out when a light went off in my head and I had him take them off the bill and put them back. That's when we went to WM and got this garbage.... J/K about blaming it on you. Anyhow, I must have had a feeling because I told Betty Lou to keep the WM receipt handy. Here is the kicker, you ain't going to believe what I am going to do next..... About a month ago, I went and bought one of those APX NXG Umarex things for $50. I put my homemade peep on it and I'm quite impressed with it. I'm gonna take these toys back and get Betty Lou one of those.
I was thinking that those APX NXG's were just a fancy, or reworked 880.. What do you say? Reports are starting to come out that the APX is fantastic! (BIG) If I get tired of the 880, I'll go with the 901 next, or possibly the APX, if it really is a 880 in disguise..
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The APX NXG is definitely NOT a Daisy 880 work alike. It has a pump tube with the valve assyembly in the pump tube, though it also is NOT a Crosman work alike. The APX NXG has a little cheaper plastic forgrips than the 880, though a much nicer stock. It is very difficult to repair as all of the securing pins for the tube are flanged at the ends, and would have to be damaged to remove.
That said the APX NXG is a good shooter, not Daisy good though good, it has a decent feel, and it is decently accurate (not hunting accurate though). It is a good plinker, I have only one and would not buy a second, though I use my AirGuns for hunting.
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The APX NXG is definitely NOT a Daisy 880 work alike. It has a pump tube with the valve assyembly in the pump tube, though it also is NOT a Crosman work alike. The APX NXG has a little cheaper plastic forgrips than the 880, though a much nicer stock. It is very difficult to repair as all of the securing pins for the tube are flanged at the ends, and would have to be damaged to remove.
That said the APX NXG is a good shooter, not Daisy good though good, it has a decent feel, and it is decently accurate (not hunting accurate though). It is a good plinker, I have only one and would not buy a second, though I use my AirGuns for hunting.
Thanks for that
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The APX NXG is definitely NOT a Daisy 880 work alike. It has a pump tube with the valve assyembly in the pump tube, though it also is NOT a Crosman work alike. The APX NXG has a little cheaper plastic forgrips than the 880, though a much nicer stock. It is very difficult to repair as all of the securing pins for the tube are flanged at the ends, and would have to be damaged to remove.
That said the APX NXG is a good shooter, not Daisy good though good, it has a decent feel, and it is decently accurate (not hunting accurate though). It is a good plinker, I have only one and would not buy a second, though I use my AirGuns for hunting.
OK, thanks! Kinda hard to take my eyes off the 901, anyway.. Maybe I can get a 901, and gift my 880, so it doesn't look like I'm hoarding to the boss..
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You got me thinking about the Umerax APX NXG AirRifle, so I got it out to punch paper at 15 yards. I have only been using it for plinking do to its lack of accuracy, I was some how wrong.
At 15 yards it printed a group that is about half a dime across. That was a bit surprising to say the least.
And that was with the first pellet I grabbed at random (Winchester domed 9.8 grain).
So a bit more on the APX NXG:
Sturdy stock, cheap plastic forgrips, long slot for loading pellets, apparently can be accurate, produces decent power, comfortable to hold. The biggest negative is the automatic safety.
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thanks for the update
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You got me thinking about the Umerax APX NXG AirRifle, so I got it out to punch paper at 15 yards. I have only been using it for plinking do to its lack of accuracy, I was some how wrong.
At 15 yards it printed a group that is about half a dime across. That was a bit surprising to say the least.
And that was with the first pellet I grabbed at random (Winchester domed 9.8 grain).
So a bit more on the APX NXG:
Sturdy stock, cheap plastic forgrips, long slot for loading pellets, apparently can be accurate, produces decent power, comfortable to hold. The biggest negative is the automatic safety.
David'
Thank you for updating your original statement. You saved me from disagreeing with you about the accuracy of the APX. I was wondering if this was going to be another hit or miss gun. I found mine to be very accurate at 15 to 20 yards. Especially with the fabricated peep sight I added to mine. My old eyes need all the help they can get. In fact I would shoot the APX side by side with the 880 anytime. We'll see how the weather improves today, I may get the chrony out and do a side by side review on both. Both are "out of the box" stock except for the peep on the APX.
Merry Christmas Ya'll
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You got me thinking about the Umerax APX NXG AirRifle, so I got it out to punch paper at 15 yards. I have only been using it for plinking do to its lack of accuracy, I was some how wrong.
At 15 yards it printed a group that is about half a dime across. That was a bit surprising to say the least.
And that was with the first pellet I grabbed at random (Winchester domed 9.8 grain).
So a bit more on the APX NXG:
Sturdy stock, cheap plastic forgrips, long slot for loading pellets, apparently can be accurate, produces decent power, comfortable to hold. The biggest negative is the automatic safety.
David'
Thank you for updating your original statement. You saved me from disagreeing with you about the accuracy of the APX. I was wondering if this was going to be another hit or miss gun. I found mine to be very accurate at 15 to 20 yards. Especially with the fabricated peep sight I added to mine. My old eyes need all the help they can get. In fact I would shoot the APX side by side with the 880 anytime. We'll see how the weather improves today, I may get the chrony out and do a side by side review on both. Both are "out of the box" stock except for the peep on the APX.
Merry Christmas Ya'll
I would like to see a side by side comparison with a chrony. Also Merry Christmas.
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my parents bought me a 760 for my birthday back in 1976 or so. i remember picking it out in the local sporting goods store. well , they hemmed and hawed because it was as pretty pricy at $37.00. you gotta figure if its still that price today it must be junk.
Very similar situation - 1977 (or 78) - Christmas present - 761 and $44. I too remember "looking" at it in the Local Sporting Goods store (which is long gone) and then opening it on Christmas day.
This is not mine, but I sure wish I still has it
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d134/Iagent/MyfirstAirgun.jpg)
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Here is one from Baker Airguns.
https://www.bakerairguns.com/product/crosman-760-commemorative/ (https://www.bakerairguns.com/product/crosman-760-commemorative/)
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More robust pumper with a rifled barrel for ~$60? They make it; it's called a 2100. I had one back in the '70s when it was called the 766. Handling and looking at the new one, it seems pretty much identical to the one I had all those years ago. Reading reviews of it by people who have one, including some who had one of the originals, I see that most of them say the same thing.
$100+ all metal and wood pumper with rifled barrel and 12-13 fpe? They make that, too. It's called a Benjamin 392/397. I have one of those and could not be more pleased. For the price I paid ($125 with free shipping), I would feel like a jerk if I complained about anything on that one. Adjusting for inflation, my 392 cost less than my 766 did back in the '70s. And although the 766 was good, the 392 is much better.
New 760? Yeah, I have one of those too. It does indeed feel cheap and flimsy. But I bought it specifically for plinking and for killing pests in and around the house and outbuildings, using BBs as ammo. It does the job, and for $33 I have no complaints. I have never shot a pellet through it, and probably never will. 10 yards is the maximum range I need it for; anything longer and I grab a different AG.
Here is a 10-shot group I shot with it at 5 yards, using Crosman BBs and 10 pumps per shot. 5 yards is short range, but that is what I bought it for.
I have shot a new-condition Daisy Red Ryder that was made about 10 years ago. When it was offered to me free, I turned it down. The 760 costs about the same as a Red Ryder, but unlike the Red Ryder it actually has some worth as a shooter.
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More robust pumper with a rifled barrel for ~$60? They make it; it's called a 2100. I had one back in the '70s when it was called the 766. Handling and looking at the new one, it seems pretty much identical to the one I had all those years ago. Reading reviews of it by people who have one, including some who had one of the originals, I see that most of them say the same thing.
$100+ all metal and wood pumper with rifled barrel and 12-13 fpe? They make that, too. It's called a Benjamin 392/397. I have one of those and could not be more pleased. For the price I paid ($125 with free shipping), I would feel like a jerk if I complained about anything on that one. Adjusting for inflation, my 392 cost less than my 766 did back in the '70s. And although the 766 was good, the 392 is much better.
New 760? Yeah, I have one of those too. It does indeed feel cheap and flimsy. But I bought it specifically for plinking and for killing pests in and around the house and outbuildings, using BBs as ammo. It does the job, and for $33 I have no complaints. I have never shot a pellet through it, and probably never will. 10 yards is the maximum range I need it for; anything longer and I grab a different AG.
Here is a 10-shot group I shot with it at 5 yards, using Crosman BBs and 10 pumps per shot. 5 yards is short range, but that is what I bought it for.
I have shot a new-condition Daisy Red Ryder that was made about 10 years ago. When it was offered to me free, I turned it down. The 760 costs about the same as a Red Ryder, but unlike the Red Ryder it actually has some worth as a shooter.
And that is exactly what a 760 is for. Perfect use for it. Nice group even if it is close with bb's. I love it. Close range pest eliminator.
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I guess really I can't complain to much about Crosmans offerings. The M4-177 I got for my Grandson to shoot is sweet. It's really a 760 power plant I think. Looks awesome and can really be decked out with scope/dot sight, laser, flashlight and a bi-pod if you really wanted it all. Would have loved to had one of these as a kid. I would have worn it out in under 6 months though. The plastic stocks on the Daisy's and Crosman's all got wobbly from pumping them up.
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I guess really I can't complain to much about Crosmans offerings. The M4-177 I got for my Grandson to shoot is sweet. It's really a 760 power plant I think. Looks awesome and can really be decked out with scope/dot sight, laser, flashlight and a bi-pod if you really wanted it all. Would have loved to had one of these as a kid. I would have worn it out in under 6 months though. The plastic stocks on the Daisy's and Crosman's all got wobbly from pumping them up.
How can the stock get wobbly from pumping? As all of the pressure is on the pump arm and receiver when pumping I do not see how pumping could have any effect on the stock.
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I don't know. None of my all plastic ag's are wobbly while pumping.
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the Red Ryder it actually has some worth as a shooter
I dont know... i "accurized mine and it shoots very consitently at 236 fps +-2 and will put all the BBs in a hole about the size of my thumb nail at 8 yards... plus it just feels good. I "hunt" bumblebees with mine at 5 yards... and i can push a can out to pass 25 yards with it pretty consistenly. it will dent it from6 yards out, but it is a lever and a ton of fun to shoot... get a set of toy caowboys and indians and have a shoot out... I love the RR
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I guess really I can't complain to much about Crosmans offerings. The M4-177 I got for my Grandson to shoot is sweet. It's really a 760 power plant I think. Looks awesome and can really be decked out with scope/dot sight, laser, flashlight and a bi-pod if you really wanted it all. Would have loved to had one of these as a kid. I would have worn it out in under 6 months though. The plastic stocks on the Daisy's and Crosman's all got wobbly from pumping them up.
How can the stock get wobbly from pumping? As all of the pressure is on the pump arm and receiver when pumping I do not see how pumping could have any effect on the stock.
When I was a youth all I remember is the plastic stock that goes into receiver would get loose from me holding it by the stock and pumping it up. The screws would no long tighten it after a while and it would move around while aiming. I did a lot of shooting bb and pellet guns back then. Had a pole light in the back yard so I could shoot till late at night too. Wish I had a place like that now. About 100 yards away from the best rabbit hunting every.