GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: ezman604 on December 06, 2014, 07:19:40 PM
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Not my first rodeo.
Not my first PCP.
Not my first fill by probe airgun.
Wanted to fill my new Sumatra 2500 and sling some lead. Insert probe and slowly open the valve of the cylinder. Air slowly leaks out the opposite side of the fill port. Tried putting probe in the opposite side, same thing. Shouldn't have to, but replaced the probe O-rings, added a touch of silicone grease and tried again. No joy.
It APPEARS the check valve is frozen shut? Will not accept air at all.
Oh well, anybody else have this happen?
Oh, also tried with cocking lever open. Nope...
Dropped PA an email. Waiting to see their response.
:(
SAFE & Happy Shooting!!!!
Dave
8)
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Hi
Does the rifle hold pressure? Or is air leaking while filling?
I had a problem with mine when I first got it,
My issue was the fill port on gun was loose.
I Just used a little Teflon tape and tightened the fill port.
Hope this helps
Dave
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That's why I always get the 10x10 from Pyramyd, exactly to have this kind of things not happening,
small price to pay to avoid possible head hakes :)
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Sorry for the newbie answer Dave.
Good luck with the rifle,
Dave
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LOL
Appreciate the responses. 10 for 10 may not have worked for this one. It already had air in it when it arrived. Not a lot, but some.
They probably would have just shot with want was in it.
Air is not leaking out. It is not going in. :)
What it ACTS like is the fill probe (or O-rings) is not large enough to seal off the port when filling. Either that or as I said, the check valve is frozen in the closed position and will not open to let air in.
Guess I'll wait for PA response.
Darn...wanted to sling lead and Chrony this jewel.
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Hi Dave
I just remembered an old post about a fill probe issue.
The person wrapped a little Teflon tape around the o rings and it seemed to help.
I just converted mind to foster fittings because I was getting a wee noise when pumping.
Dave
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That's a thought. I saw that someone else had modified to add a Foster fill into the upper tube. I'm not modding a brand new gun under warranty though. :)
Maybe after the warranty period.
LOL
But a great option. Will try the Teflon tape, worth a shot anyway.
:)
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The actual check valve is behind the fill probe. Not easy to get to as the tubes have those lock washers that are one super hard.
Anyway, if you get to the actual check, will find it’s a cylinder of something like Delrin, shaped like a short crayola crayon. One end (to the front) cone tipped and the other flat ended. It’s not spring powered, just a slip fit kept from too much rearward movement by a pin.
I say “kind of like Derin” as it doesn’t seem to be quite the same stuff. Seems a bit softer (and in my case, kind of green colored…and I’ve never seen green Delrin). Seems like it can become compressed/swollen over time (esp. when stored for a long time under full pressure) and not move freely back and forth. Can stick one way or the other.
Had to take mine apart and make a new one from “real” Delrin, which seems to have cured the problem. Old one was mashed/swollen to the point it wouldn’t freely slide.
There are foster fittings that replace the fill probe. BUT they are just foster fittings, they rely on the same check valve as the probe did.
O-rings on the probe can leak, but replacing them is an easy cure.
So if you think it’s the probe o-rings causing your problem, then replace them.
IF you think it’s the check valve, then try blasting it with a fast/quick burst of high pressure air (if you have a fill tank). That could free up a stuck check valve where a slow fill won’t.
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I had a similiar issue with my rainstorm 3d fill probe exactly as you describe, it ended up being the o-rings, I ordered additional rings and a extra probe but used my fx probe until they came. replaced the o-rings on the faulty probe and it was better, used the new and it was perfect, on the original used some teflon tape in the o-ring groove and that one works fine.
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LOL
Appreciate the responses. 10 for 10 may not have worked for this one. It already had air in it when it arrived. Not a lot, but some.
They probably would have just shot with want was in it.
Air is not leaking out. It is not going in. :)
What it ACTS like is the fill probe (or O-rings) is not large enough to seal off the port when filling. Either that or as I said, the check valve is frozen in the closed position and will not open to let air in.
Guess I'll wait for PA response.
Darn...wanted to sling lead and Chrony this jewel.
Actually on the 10x10 they fill to 3000 psi, check that everything works and there's no leaks and than shoot 10 rounds through the chrono.
Yep, well worth the measly 10 bucks :)
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I would try shoot it down empty and than try fill.
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I put the foster fill unit on both my Sumatras and my Career Ultra.
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Pull the fill fitting, It unscrews. I used a phillips head screwdriver shaft wrapped with electrical tape to protect the fitting. Check to see if the Oring may have got booggered up and plugged the passage to the check valve. BTW I put the foster fitting on mine. It does not go into the upper tube, it just replaces the fill probe fitting- $20 at PA
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Also a foster fitting, but I knocked the rifle over while filling and snapped the fill probe, foster fitting seemed the faster/easier repair choice.
However, as we didn't take the gun apart to remove the check valve, that foster fitting still works with the same check valve, so it's just an easier way to connect to a hose. IF the check valve inside the gun is acting up, a foster fitting isn't going to cure it.
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Good info all. Lesson learned Manny. Next PCP from PA will get the 10 for 10 or 20 for 20. I wrapped Teflon tape (4-5 turns) around the probe and sliced off the center to not block the fill hole. Worked it into the port carefully. Started opening the valve to slowly let air flow. Leaks still out of the fill port, the opposite end from where I inserted probe. I DID replace the O-rings with the spare set that came with the airgun and had no effect.
What I carefully did, while keeping my hand on the valve and turned away from the fill port, was let the air flow and slowly crank the valve open. As I gave it more pressure, more escaped. BUT, the reservoir filled. It sounded as if I lost as much in leakage as went into the airgun, but I got it to fill.
May try the sudden burst to see....but will definitely order a replacement probe and O-rings.
Thanks again ya'll. Was able to fire off 4-5 mags of rounds. Gonna love this airgun even though having minor fill issues.
:)
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What's involved in replacing the port with a Foster adapter? Drilling and tapping?
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Hi Dave
To change the fill port just unscrew the old by putting something in the fill hole to turn it.
Once you have it off put the new o ring in and screw it on.
I think I paid 10'dollars from PA
Dave
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What's involved in replacing the port with a Foster adapter? Drilling and tapping?
Dave, see my previous post above. BTW what caliber did you get? .22 or .25?
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Oh, okay. So, the fill port actually has the same threads as the Foster adapter? From the looks of the cap of the fill port it would be quite larger.
Most definitely will order the adapter and change it then. Keep the original port just in case.
:)
Does this one have a quick drain process or just have to shoot it out of air?
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What's involved in replacing the port with a Foster adapter? Drilling and tapping?
Just unscrew the probe by putting a screw driver through the hole and screw in the foster. You don't even have to let the air out.
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What's involved in replacing the port with a Foster adapter? Drilling and tapping?
Dave, see my previous post above. BTW what caliber did you get? .22 or .25?
Thanks John. I got the .25.
Gonna be my Yote eliminator. It sure eats up a 12" piece of 1X8.
:)
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Shoot it down. But no need to as the check valve is past the fill port. If that is what you are asking.
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LOL
I'm very skeptical to remove ANYTHING off of a charged reservoir. I understand the check valve is holding the air back but. If I'm going this far, I might as well open it up and check out the check valve operation. Improve it if possible. Just voids my warranty I guess.
:)
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Waranties are made to be vioided
lol.
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Thanks John. I got the .25.
Gonna be my Yote eliminator. It sure eats up a 12" piece of 1X8.
:)
Shooting Hunter Supply 52 grain It blows holes in a 2x6 then a 5/8 OSB then flattens out on 8 gauge plate. It may handle a songdog :D
IF you are going into the pressure tubes to remove the check valve I would consult someone that has done it before . As far as I've been is barrel replacement ( Chuckster walked me through that) , not quite to the pressure tubes.
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Brother Ribbonstone has been there and offered up some advise. Appreciate that too!!!
Delrin-like material? And actual Delrin made a good replacement? I can do that.
:)
Drain the air, loosen or remove the set screws from the end cap. Doesn't appear to be threaded. Just those set screws holding it in place?
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I believe you need a spanner wrench.
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The Foster fitting is a fine solution to that foolish probe design used. Why are you draining it?
cheers,
Douglas
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The Foster fitting is a fine solution to that foolish probe design used. Why are you draining it?
cheers,
Douglas
To open it up as Ribbonstone says. The check valve MAY have issues and could be improved by machining one from Delrin. But again, might be an option for when my warranty expires.
:)
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Yeah, they aren't fun to get apart the first time. The tube end cap is quite long, has 0-rings, is threaded, and locked with that slotted ring. They really cranked down on that slotted ring, so getting it off the first time isn't a lot of fun.
Realize the only Sumatra I've had apart is one of the old ones, the new ones could change a a few parts without bothering to tell us.
The actual check part on my old Sumatra was just a length of Delrin-ish material, shaped on one end like a nose cone (the end that actually seals the inlet opening) and flat on the other. Cross pin behind it. No spring, would just rattle back and forth (if it wasn't mashed/squished). Get it in your hand and it's an easy part to make. Actually, I appreciate how simple the check valve is, it's just getting to it.
Once you fully degas the gun, you might be able to hear that little part sliding back and forth. IF it is, then your problem might just be the probe and not be the check, although the tip could be mashed or fouled with a bit of crud.
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Oh, okay. So, the fill port actually has the same threads as the Foster adapter? From the looks of the cap of the fill port it would be quite larger.
Most definitely will order the adapter and change it then. Keep the original port just in case.
:)
Does this one have a quick drain process or just have to shoot it out of air?
I had the same problem I called PA and they sent me a free Foster adapter , I unscrewed the fill port blew it out and reattached It made sure It was tight and walla that fixed the problem...Ill keep the Foster adapter just in case i ever need it . You dont have to drain the air out the check valve holds It in.
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I have a different take. As much as folks hate the probes they are a sexy solution and makes the gun visually pleasing. Dave, in you case it seems to be a o-ring clearance/crush (lack of) issue. Meaning either the probe gland diameters are too small or the receptacle is too diameter is too large and the o-rings are not sealing. Proof of this is that when you hit it hard with the pressure you were able to get a partial seal and get the gun filled. If the check valve is stuck the probe o-rings will hold the fill pressure in the whip with out leaking form either side.
An unfortunate QC problem. Manny gets the A+ for stating the 10 for 10 would catch such a problem. Too many QC issues in the AG world.
Tom
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Dave, didn't you just get a new lathe?? Sounds like you have a nice chance to get to know it. ;D Making a fill probe that fits properly should be a very straightforward project.
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I have a different take. As much as folks hate the probes they are a sexy solution and makes the gun visually pleasing. Dave, in you case it seems to be a o-ring clearance/crush (lack of) issue. Meaning either the probe gland diameters are too small or the receptacle is too diameter is too large and the o-rings are not sealing. Proof of this is that when you hit it hard with the pressure you were able to get a partial seal and get the gun filled. If the check valve is stuck the probe o-rings will hold the fill pressure in the whip with out leaking form either side.
An unfortunate QC problem. Manny gets the A+ for stating the 10 for 10 would catch such a problem. Too many QC issues in the AG world.
Tom
:) :) :) Tom you one of the few if not the only one I hear say that :)
When I used to have a Bunch of DAQs, Marauders, and a few other guns with Foster System, I converted all my Koreans to Foster to make the filling easier,
....... well Once I sold all the other guns I reconverted the Koreans to the Probe,......I actually prefer it to the Foaster
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LOL
Good info in this thread for sure. Many thanks to all.
Tom, that is the same thoughts I have. Either the port is too large or the probe was a tad smaller that it should be. Hence it does not seal properly, even when I add Teflon tape. I may try one last thing today. I may add some floss in the O-ring slots and reinstall them. Maybe the minor increase in diameter will help it seal better.
As for making a probe, sure can. I made one for my Hatty AT44.
Give me some needed bench time therapy also.
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:) :) :) Tom you one of the few if not the only one I hear say that :)
When I used to have a Bunch of DAQs, Marauders, and a few other guns with Foster System, I converted all my Koreans to Foster to make the filling easier,
....... well Once I sold all the other guns I reconverted the Koreans to the Probe,......I actually prefer it to the Foaster
Yeah, there is beautiful and there is functional. They are not always mutually exclusive but mostly are :) Hard to claim the foster is not a superior filling system; it is. I love the way guns look without industrial fittings hanging off them but I'm practical enough know most will choose functionality over looks, that is why I put a foster on my new designs.
Tom
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Yes Manny & Tom are 100% correct! The 10 for 10 is indeed something that should be done to all Airguns before they ship.
What D Ez is going through is one reason Discos R Us does a 24 hour pressure test as well as a complete shot string over out chrony before any new gun ships. On top of that there is no extra cost to the customer as it is a free service that we provide. The Chrony printout is included with the gun so that the customer knows what his or her PCP does right out of the box. You would be surprised how my PCPs with leaks we do find and fix before the gun ships.
I do understand that our gun sales are very small compared to dealers like PA and that doing it for free with their volume would not be possible.
Norm
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Good Business practice there Norm,
that will pay off in the long run, good customer service is always greatly appreciated.
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Yes Manny & Tom are 100% correct! The 10 for 10 is indeed something that should be done to all Airguns before they ship.
What D Ez is going through is one reason Discos R Us does a 24 hour pressure test as well as a complete shot string over out chrony before any new gun ships. On top of that there is no extra cost to the customer as it is a free service that we provide. The Chrony printout is included with the gun so that the customer knows what his or her PCP does right out of the box. You would be surprised how my PCPs with leaks we do find and fix before the gun ships.
I do understand that our gun sales are very small compared to dealers like PA and that doing it for free with their volume would not be possible.
Norm
Shameless plug LOL.
Norm you are to be commended for testing for free. I hope you are able to bill back your time to Crosman for fixing their leaks!
Tom
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Yes Manny & Tom are 100% correct! The 10 for 10 is indeed something that should be done to all Airguns before they ship.
What D Ez is going through is one reason Discos R Us does a 24 hour pressure test as well as a complete shot string over out chrony before any new gun ships. On top of that there is no extra cost to the customer as it is a free service that we provide. The Chrony printout is included with the gun so that the customer knows what his or her PCP does right out of the box. You would be surprised how my PCPs with leaks we do find and fix before the gun ships.
I do understand that our gun sales are very small compared to dealers like PA and that doing it for free with their volume would not be possible.
Norm
Shameless plug ;) HA.
Norm, in the long run you are money and time ahead. You have but eliminated back and forth shipping and frustrated customers, much less your time fixing a problem that shouldn't have been there in the first place if the problem was there unnoticed.
In my business as in many others, callback costs in time and labor are tremendous. I commend you.
The next AG I purchase will be from you if it is available through you.
But like many others, " that was the last AG i'm going to get ;D"
Fat chance.
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I will say I did not remember the 10 for 10 when I placed my order. At the fantastic price I got this airgun at, $10 would not have been out of the question for me. And to tell you the truth, my experience has been that of the TONS of airguns that have passed through my hands, I have had excellent luck. Not had many real issues. So, the 10 for 10 really never crossed my mind. It will in the future.
:)
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Okay, just got back home and had a few minutes of shop time. Pulled the fill port and checked everything. Nothing out of the ordinary. I Q-tip swabbed the port and reinstalled it. Then took the probe and slid the O-rings back one at a time and wrapped some dental floss (about 6-7 turns) around and rolled the O-rings back in place. Added a bit of silicone grease and put the air to it. Still had a bit of a leak but noticed also that the probe slid in without too much effort. So, off the O-rings slid again and added about 2-3 more turns of dental floss. Back together and put the air to it. NO LEAKS!!!
No loss of air as I got the reservoir up to 3K.
EXCELLENT!!!
But, I had ordered the Foster already anyway. :)
And a couple of spare mags while I was at it.
Thanks again for all of the great input on this issue. Save it for the next folks!!!
SAFE & Happy Shooting!!!!
Dave
8)
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Cool, love it when it's a quick fix :)
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Hj Dave
Glad to hear your back in business.
Enjoy the rifle they are fun to shoot.
Dave
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The first thing I did was remove that stupid fill probe port and walked outside and threw it as far as I could, 6 PCP AG's in the house with Foster Fittings and one stupid loner with a probe! That has got to be the most annoying fill solution I ever seen!
Any How, I guess if it was reversed I would say the same about the foster fitting ;D
William
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I just made a foster male adapter for the probe. That way i have a quick connect and the elegant if complicated and heavy oem fill port.
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Jody, I may wind up making one too. That will give me an excuse to try my hand at making threads. Never made a threaded item on my lathe. I DID make a fill probe for my AT44W but it was an all in one without the threaded adapter.
:)
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I found some of these at a local paintball shop. I attached them to all the probes I use. PA sells them also, but they were only $5 at the paintball shop.
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFgxNjAw/z/V7gAAOxyzfNRuy2X/$(KGrHqR,!pIFEliIVIT3BRuy2(MlLg~~60_57.JPG)
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It was sold at a paintball shop and the owner assured me it was rated at 5000 psi. This is not the actual picture, I found this picture on ebay just to show the build make-up. But it's a silver finish like this this picture.
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This is what I replaced my fill connector with from Pyramydair. For my Sam Yang Recluse, the Sumatra may just take the same fitting, I called and they told me to use this and eliminate the factory one. Just screw off the original and install this one. No need to empty the air either, the check valve is under this.
Link-- https://www.pyramydair.com/product/quick-disconnect-male-fitting-o-ring?a=2841 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/quick-disconnect-male-fitting-o-ring?a=2841)
(https://www.pyramydair.com/images/acc/Air-Venturi-Quick-Disconnect-Male-Port_AVMaleCoupling_port_lg.jpg)
William
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HEY DEz.... So it looks like the O-ring grooves were cut too deep in the probe?.... Kind of a PITA.... The best fix would be a new (one-piece) probe with male Foster on the end....
Is it possible the grooves were cut for a 2mm O-ring and the ones installed were 1/16" American size ones?....
Bob
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I have to lower Manny's A+ to a B-. If the probe is at fault, it's unlikely PA would have mounted the probe during the 10 for 10. Most like they use one probe to test all the guns. Dave, you might wan't to shoot PA an email suggesting they include the probes in the 10 for 10 if they don't already.
Tom
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VERY possible Bob. I plan on making a new one soon.
:)
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If the groove is 0.080" wide or more, I would think that using a 2mm O-ring (0.078") instead of the ISO size (0.070") cross section might cure your problem.... Worth a try....
Bob
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Now, about the power wheel. :)
I read somewhere it had 13 positions? So I'm guessing it turns a few complete revolutions? CW or CCW to increase? I did a bit of testing tonight with a few different rounds. The Clague made a difference I would not have believed if I hadn't been behind the trigger myself. :)
I THINK I turned the power down, loaded up some H&N Baracuda Hunter Extreme 28.4gr and the ONLY thing I heard in my closed shop was the hammer strike and the SOLID impact on a 1X8 piece of wood with a target taped to it. WOW!!!
Next will be official Chrony testing and picking the right power setting for the most impact for the lowest report.
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Oh well, just experimented a bit last night. I just don't have a lot of time to play lately.
Wheel has a few turns for power.
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Here is what I can remember about the power wheel. It has almost 2 full turns between stops. With the rifle in a firing position I use my left hand and rotate the wheel to my right to ensure it is at maximum power (I usually shoot it on the black dot before maximum). That equates to counter clock wise for high or if you are looking at the wheel rotate it left.
I need to make some time to go shooting.