GTA

All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => German AirGun Gate => Topic started by: TOM aka critter99 on November 03, 2014, 12:35:21 PM

Title: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: TOM aka critter99 on November 03, 2014, 12:35:21 PM
we seem to be generating enough email traffic to HW that now their email is returning this message below.

If you have not written yet please do so now  ;D

Start with the following:

FX Airguns: inquiries@fxairguns.com
Daystate: office@daystate.com
HW: info@weihrauch-sport.de

I would add Brocock to the list as I suspect if they see success with HW they will move to Brocock next

Brocock: sales@brocock.co.uk

add you will not ever buy their products again while this continues



we could also try the Canadian side of the border maybe they will act and pressure the US side to move

http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/eic/site/cb-bc.nsf/frm-eng/GH%C3%89T-7TDNA5 (http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/eic/site/cb-bc.nsf/frm-eng/GH%C3%89T-7TDNA5)


Below is what the HW inbound box is now sending out ...never did that before  8)

Dear Sir or Madam,

thank you very much for your enquiry. At the moment the number of incoming mails is quite high. Due to this circumstance there may be a delay in corresponding and answering. We hope for your patience and understanding.

Best regards
--
Weihrauch & Weihrauch Sport GmbH & Co.KG
Industriestr. 13, 97638 Mellrichstadt
Handelsregister: HRA 8080 AG Schweinfurt
Komplementär: Weihrauch& Weihrauch Sport Verwaltungs GmbH
(HRB 3366 AG Schweinfurt)
Geschäftsführer: Hans-Hermann Weihrauch, Stefan Weihrauch
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: ptpalpha on November 03, 2014, 01:41:48 PM
Got the same response. 
Keep those emails going, everyone.  If you haven't sent HW an email yet, please do so.  It's in all of our best interest, whether or not you own (or want) an HW rifle.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: Booger on November 03, 2014, 09:23:58 PM
Got the same response. 
Keep those emails going, everyone.  If you haven't sent HW an email yet, please do so.  It's in all of our best interest, whether or not you own (or want) an HW rifle.

I sent them an email praising their product, when they actually reply I will drop the AOA bomb. :)
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: dv8eod on November 03, 2014, 09:59:36 PM
This is off topic and I'm sorry, but Booger? We all know what a beautiful rifle you have. But putting it on a crappy table to make it glow even brighter is just rubbing it in our faces.  :P  ;D
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: Booger on November 03, 2014, 10:05:01 PM
I am just a poor man with a nicer rifle than table.  :'(
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: Sfttailrdr46 on November 03, 2014, 10:06:56 PM
 ;D Actually Jesse if you give as much love and attention to the table it will be just as pretty as the rifle  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: Booger on November 03, 2014, 10:17:31 PM
;D Actually Jesse if you give as much love and attention to the table it will be just as pretty as the rifle  ;) ;D

I never refinished a table until about 30 years ago, my mother loved it so much she put it in the living room. That was my first and last refinishing job. I hand sanded it, rubbed with oil for a week and used the old stain from the sanding cycle and she was finished. My mother told me she did not know I knew how to work with wood and I told her I didn't know either.  :)
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: ptpalpha on November 05, 2014, 08:29:27 AM
Here is AoA's email response to my inquire as to their involvement in HW's decision regarding SSSO:

Begin quote:
We are an importer for Weihrauch Sport.  What nobody seems to acknowledge is that Pyramid Air and Air Rifle Headquarters are also importers for the same Weihrauch line.  We each have factory authorization to import and distribute within the United States.  Specialty Shooting Sports Outdoors is a Canadian dealer and they have the factories authorization to sell in Canada only.  This is a common agreement between an importer and a factory, and it is required due to liability concerns.  Factories have to maintain liability coverage in the countries they sell within, and they rely on their importer to carry this coverage.  We are insured for liability, and every Weihrauch we sell falls under the coverage of this policy.  Now, if we were to sell outside of our territory, the product would not be covered by our policy and may not be covered by any policy existing in that country.  So, a safety issue resulting in legal action would not get covered by any insurance, which would leave Weihrauch exposed. 

We are also 100% responsible for all warranty issues, and must cover our labor costs with no assistance from the factory.  Advertising, promotional events, videos, etc are also funded 100% by our company without any assistance from the factory.  Because of this, factories will prevent distributors from crossing territories, because they want us all to focus our efforts on the territory they assigned us.  It would be very easy for a company like SSSO to lose focus on the Canadian market by offering lower pricing across the border and reap the sales from a market that no time/money were invested in growing.  As a professional company, we do our work to advertise in various forms of media, we send product out for independent review, we have an established network of dealers with investment in their own inventory, and we keep full stock on hand to support the market.  This all comes at our expense.  Then, we continue to fund the expense of warranty labor, non-warranty parts supply and maintain a very expensive insurance policy in case something were to go seriously wrong.  A company crossing into our territory can drop his price due to low overhead and complete lack of the structure required to maintain and support a product long-term.  When something goes wrong, the customer expects us to fix the issue, support the brand, and act as an extension of the factory, irregardless of where the sale was made.

What little involvement we may have had with Weihrauch to contribute to their decision to enforce territories would have been alerting them of product being sold across territory lines.  Any issue outside of our normal operations will be recorded with the factory in order to protect our company as well as theirs.  However, we have not made any communication with Weihrauch regarding anything of this nature recently.  This is not to say that their decision was based on any recent correspondence.  Moreover, one of the other importers may have shared similar examples, and the combined issues may have caused their actions.  In any event, we are shocked to read the recent attack on our company over a situation that we are given way too much credit for its occurrence.  While we get along great with the Weihrauch company, we do not have any control over their decisions to enforce the policy they set forth to each of us as distributors.
Thank you,
Greg Glover
Airguns of Arizona
(480) 461-1113
End quote. (I highlighted the bold text; it was not bold in the original email)
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: tomykay12 on November 05, 2014, 12:02:47 PM
zackly same  thing I got.....within a couple hours. i think they were prepared for this, tk
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: GarthThomas on November 05, 2014, 12:56:44 PM
I was thinking as I read the AoA response that in my experience nothing is cheaper in Canada, not our gas or oil or lumber or anything else thats manufactured here much less imported. Except maybe maple syrup. So if a Canadian seller gives a better deal than an American one then something is up.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: TOM aka critter99 on November 05, 2014, 03:40:11 PM
They have offered some lame excuses: Including the Canadian dealer is free riding on their warranty and advertisement expenses promoting HW and they are saving somebody from some imagined liability issue.  The US has no power restrictions on air rifles so if brought into US no problem. Germany and their products are not banned from US trade in fact Germany is on the US "most preferred nation" Trade Status List. It's not like we are sneaking banned Cuban Cigars in. Where is the liability? Air powered rifles are not firearms in the US.

Trust me on this anybody that sought out SSSO would NEVER go to them(US SOURCE) for warranty or information they want to wash their hands of them.
 
That’s why I have written HW and said I wont buy there stuff again ever if they don’t review the directive to SSSO
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: TOM aka critter99 on November 05, 2014, 03:43:55 PM
opps dupe info
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: TOM aka critter99 on November 05, 2014, 03:52:11 PM
Can you spell BOYCOTT TIME
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: grumpy on November 05, 2014, 07:45:21 PM
Tom, you do know that Brocock is now owned by the same parent company as Daystate don't ya ? Last i heard they were both even moving in to the same production facility.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: gg51 on November 05, 2014, 08:05:54 PM
The airgun market is so small that there's no chance of a government response, say, anti-trust .. so vote with ya feet.  I'll avoid AoA like the crabs, by abstaining from contact with them
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: TOM aka critter99 on November 05, 2014, 08:14:15 PM
Tom, you do know that Brocock is now owned by the same parent company as Daystate don't ya ? Last i heard they were both even moving in to the same production facility.

yep
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: hutnicks on November 05, 2014, 09:14:02 PM
I am starting to be curious as to what SSS's actual agreement with Weirhauch states. There seems to be a pretty big lack of information here on a few fronts and that has led to a lot of speculation both here and "over there"

 It would not be uncommon for an importer to have rights to sell in only their country. I run across it almost daily and while it annoys the *(&^ out of me, I understand it's no fault of any of the importers themselves. They all point out that they can have their distributorships pulled at a moments notice for violating the terms of their agreement. This type of agreement is distasteful to me in this day and age as it limits the options of the consumer and it also eliminates a level of sales tool of the distributors.


 The above response of growing and developing the market, I take fully tongue in cheek. I don't see anywhere near the level of promotion and support on any air rifle in North America as you do in Europe. Most of our initial reads of reviews come from Europe long before anything happens over here.  American made products are the exception here and that does not apply, obviously to the HW label.

 I'd like to see AoA query the mighty and powerful Hans on the issue and post up that correspondence, that may shed a little light on the whole environment.

 
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: TOM aka critter99 on November 05, 2014, 11:39:47 PM
Bottom line is it was done with only one mean spirited goal in mind.  Force most HW fans in US to buy from them.....the only other real source is the Beeman line

I say Boycott AOA on all brands and HW from any US outlet
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: hutnicks on November 06, 2014, 12:15:20 AM
Maybe and maybe not. If It's simply a report of breach of distribution agreement, there is no spirit involved whatsoever.

There is far too little information available here to make any kind of rational decision. If AoA's pricing is too high don't buy from them. There are other HW distro's in the US.

 I would like to know if all the US distributors contracts with Hans stipulate that they cannot ship to Canada though.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: grumpy on November 06, 2014, 08:54:31 AM
MTC optics, One more you better add to that ever growing list tom.  ::)
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: StevenG on November 06, 2014, 09:10:52 AM
I am starting to be curious as to what SSS's actual agreement with Weirhauch states. There seems to be a pretty big lack of information here on a few fronts and that has led to a lot of speculation both here and "over there"

 It would not be uncommon for an importer to have rights to sell in only their country. I run across it almost daily and while it annoys the *(&^ out of me, I understand it's no fault of any of the importers themselves. They all point out that they can have their distributorships pulled at a moments notice for violating the terms of their agreement. This type of agreement is distasteful to me in this day and age as it limits the options of the consumer and it also eliminates a level of sales tool of the distributors.


 The above response of growing and developing the market, I take fully tongue in cheek. I don't see anywhere near the level of promotion and support on any air rifle in North America as you do in Europe. Most of our initial reads of reviews come from Europe long before anything happens over here.  American made products are the exception here and that does not apply, obviously to the HW label.

 I'd like to see AoA query the mighty and powerful Hans on the issue and post up that correspondence, that may shed a little light on the whole environment.

+1

Not enough info to make it clear what is going on and these agreements are distasteful and only serve to hurt buyers in some countries.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: scrane on November 06, 2014, 02:51:27 PM
I'm thinking it's in SSSO's best interest to let things die down.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: TOM aka critter99 on November 06, 2014, 03:12:05 PM
MTC optics, One more you better add to that ever growing list tom.  ::)

MTC has nothing to do wit what this was about.........SSSO being bullied not the pro and con of factory distribution  contract methods
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: TOM aka critter99 on November 06, 2014, 03:13:50 PM
I'm thinking it's in SSSO's best interest to let things die down.

lets wait and see if and when HW replies to customer write ins .....holding pattern for time being except boycott the offender
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: MikieG on November 06, 2014, 06:19:59 PM
They have not responded to mine.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: TOM aka critter99 on November 06, 2014, 06:29:31 PM
I'm thinking it's in SSSO's best interest to let things die down.

at this point I agree totally,   we are done nothing else


Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: MikieG on November 07, 2014, 09:24:14 AM
HW REPLY.


Dear Mr. Graham,

thank you for your e-mail.
We will have a closer look into your mentioned issue.
Please understand, that this will take some time.

Sorry for the inconvenience.    

Best regards

Hans-H. Weihrauch  
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: tomykay12 on November 07, 2014, 11:37:29 AM
I got the same reply, tk
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: TOM aka critter99 on November 07, 2014, 02:53:53 PM
Same here lets wait for the real final response.  In the past emails I have sent to HW have been replied to with signed hard copy letters as I have always included my mailing address.

So give it a chance.

If you have not written HW now would be the time to jump on board and write as well. 

I'll bet there are some phone calls and questions flying right now gathering information. 


I'll bet it will come down to how much will it lower or raise our unit sales for each position.

There is a precedent in Europe with EU these products flowing freely across borders there via DHL.  I think if HW has seen better sales in Europe after the EU relaxations there is a good chance they will come down on the side of open trade
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: tomykay12 on November 07, 2014, 07:19:53 PM
There is a post on the yellow by one Mike Ellingsworth today. He spoke with "Mike"@ SSSO, and clarified a few things, which further deepens the mud, lol. There was never a territorial agreement, according to them, and there have been threatening emails and letters from the "other" vendor. Read for yourself if you dare...tk
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: Booger on November 07, 2014, 07:35:49 PM
There is a post on the yellow by one Mike Ellingsworth today. He spoke with "Mike"@ SSSO, and clarified a few things, which further deepens the mud, lol. There was never a territorial agreement, according to them, and there have been threatening emails and letters from the "other" vendor. Read for yourself if you dare...tk

Please re-post here. I do not visit the other web site. :)
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: palonej on November 07, 2014, 07:40:33 PM
Here ya go Jess.
Seems like these guys are walking on eggs and not mentioning AOA by name as they are a sponsor over there.
I give this guy Mike some credit for speaking out.....seems like people get banned over there for sneezing!!
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1415398909/+Weihrauch+deal+with+Specialty+shooting+sports+info+found+out%21 (http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1415398909/+Weihrauch+deal+with+Specialty+shooting+sports+info+found+out%21)
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: TOM aka critter99 on November 07, 2014, 08:31:12 PM
There is a post on the yellow by one Mike Ellingsworth today. He spoke with "Mike"@ SSSO, and clarified a few things, which further deepens the mud, lol. There was never a territorial agreement, according to them, and there have been threatening emails and letters from the "other" vendor. Read for yourself if you dare...tk

Please re-post here. I do not visit the other web site. :)

here ya go

Weihrauch deal with Specialty shooting sports info found out!November 7 2014 at 5:21 PM   
Mike Ellingsworth / 4888blues   (Login 4888blues)
YF12
I just received a returned call from Mike, from specialty shooting sports.

So here it is!


I asked and he said they were always aloud to sell to the U S market, no contracts stating other wise period!

It was only about a year or so now that they been having troubles receiving""nasty emails and "nasty complaints" "Nasty threats".

Mike did not say the vendors name, but my conversation hit the nail on the head with out him having to say their name.

I told Mike that Hans weihrauch emailed me back and said he would be looking into the matter, and Mike told me he has also been in contact with Hanns Weihrauch and said he is working on a solution also.

Mike said

The Germans are not arrogant they have a different way of speaking then the U S people do, they are good people and mean well,and we left it at that.

ON a different Note.


As far as I am concern I am not buying nothing from AOA I dont care whats on sale, I am done, I dont care if its a 1/2 off special sale keep your stuff I dont want it!

We all can play the game now cant we.

By the way
specialty shooting sports are some fine people and absolutely excellent to deal with.

Mike


   
This message has been edited by 4888blues on Nov 7, 2014 5:28 PM


 
    Respond to this message   
Author   Reply
tomas
(Login tomykay12)
YF   
Great job Mike, nt   November 7 2014, 6:03 PM


 
    Respond to this message   
Bryan Enoch
(Login BEnoch)
YF   
Yes, I agree Mike...no more buying from that vendor for me...   November 7 2014, 6:21 PM

I agree....that vendor has lost any future business from me. I will not be ordering anything every again from them. Hopefully this will catch on.
Shoot Safe,

Bryan

 
    Respond to this message   

Sandy Bunn (Martineer)
(Login Martineer)
YC   
None from me either, but then, I never did much with them anyway.....nt   November 7 2014, 6:24 PM


 
    Respond to this message   
TonyT
(Login AJTKMI)
YF12   
Perhaps if he were quiet rather than aloud they might have been allowed to sell. nt   November 7 2014, 6:28 PM


 
    Respond to this message   
tomas
(Login tomykay12)
YF   
???   November 7 2014, 6:49 PM


 
    Respond to this message   
Glover, Walter
(Login Voltar1)
YFOT   
I think you have it backwards   November 7 2014, 6:50 PM

SSSO is not the aggressor here. A US dealer wants it all. After talking with Mike it became clear it is going to be up to Wiehrauch to do the right thing by their customers and put the US dealer in its place. If HW cowtows to said dealer we are all hooped

Hans, please do the right thing.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: Booger on November 07, 2014, 08:45:19 PM
Thank you. I have only bought 1 thing from AOA, only because PA did not have it in stock. AOA got the last of the money from me because of greed! No More.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: TOM aka critter99 on November 07, 2014, 08:48:43 PM
We should have Tshirt   "Friends dont let friends buy from AOA"
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: ptpalpha on November 07, 2014, 09:09:55 PM
Mike E. is a straight up guy, and a friend of mine.  He's never been accused of beating around the bush!!
I gotta give the Yellow some credit; I thought the AoA threads would last about 20 minutes before being deleted.  Sponsor or not, the threads calling a spade a spade are sticking around, with new ones cropping up almost daily. 
I think one of the most telling aspects of this entire issue is the fact that not once has a rep from AoA posted anything in their defense.  Guess they're all hunkering down hoping it fades away....or maybe their profit margins are so fat they've got enough in reserve to ride this one out.
We'll see.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: Sfttailrdr46 on November 07, 2014, 09:23:10 PM
 ::) Well as far as I'm concerned AoA was on my don't buy list for awhile due to the numerous customer service issues I was reading on the forums. I beleive that a customer is something you try hard to make and keep happy that is where word of mouth builds new and repeat business. That is also the way you create customer loyalty. AoA seems to get it right less than 50% of the time. No future business from me and several lost sales . I plan to spend my money elsewhere
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: TOM aka critter99 on November 07, 2014, 10:17:35 PM
Mike E. is a straight up guy, and a friend of mine.  He's never been accused of beating around the bush!!
I gotta give the Yellow some credit; I thought the AoA threads would last about 20 minutes before being deleted.  Sponsor or not, the threads calling a spade a spade are sticking around, with new ones cropping up almost daily. 
I think one of the most telling aspects of this entire issue is the fact that not once has a rep from AoA posted anything in their defense.  Guess they're all hunkering down hoping it fades away....or maybe their profit margins are so fat they've got enough in reserve to ride this one out.
We'll see.

anything AOA would add would only make them look worse as in the past and then it gets deleted
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: tomykay12 on November 07, 2014, 10:23:37 PM
I also applaud the yellow for leaving these posts running. This is a serious breech of business ethics and needs to be out in the open as much as possible so intelligent people can decide where to spend their money on this airgun stuff. The Yellow forum gets bashed here a little over the top at times. Right now a full discussion is occurring over there on this matter, with the exception of one thread, which probably degraded into name calling or some other such drivel and got deleted. No one person is driving a crusade on the Yellow, more like everyone is trying to figure out what happened and share current information, voice opinions, etc. That is what these forums represent; the sharing of information and opinion. Love to see a first person response from SSSO, but they probably can't for legal reasons. We have already seen that from aoa, basically blaming HW for this whole issue. What's next? tk   
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: woogie_man on November 07, 2014, 10:32:52 PM
Just remember the threads and the benchrest competition....Was in the site for a while until aoa came on and started making things up and were called out because of it.  Then some how every thread about the subject was deleted.  Sponsor or not if you deal like this in business the truth needs to come out. 

To many AOA is all about the money, and could give two farts about their customers.  Really sad.



I can see the threads on the yellow being deleted, yet again, it AOA complains even a little.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: TOM aka critter99 on November 07, 2014, 10:49:43 PM
no worry i am saving them to my PC and have a home online already planned for them

http://www.network54.com/Forum/754392/ (http://www.network54.com/Forum/754392/)
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: pyroboy33 on November 07, 2014, 11:23:59 PM
Quote
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1415398909/+Weihrauch+deal+with+Specialty+shooting+sports+info+found+out%21

Aaaand it's deleted....:P I read it this afternoon and knew it would not last long
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: TOM aka critter99 on November 07, 2014, 11:27:14 PM
others have taken it place same subject  :o

You can still read it here

http://www.network54.com/Forum/754392/thread/1415417606/last-1415417606/Threads+erased+with+truth+inside+Weihrauch+deal+with+Specialty+shooting+sports+info+found+ (http://www.network54.com/Forum/754392/thread/1415417606/last-1415417606/Threads+erased+with+truth+inside+Weihrauch+deal+with+Specialty+shooting+sports+info+found+)
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: woogie_man on November 07, 2014, 11:40:45 PM
We should have bet on a deletion date and time.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: ptpalpha on November 08, 2014, 07:46:58 AM
OK then, I retract my previous compliment to the Yellow.  I saw nothing in the deleted thread that I think was a good reason to 86 it.
And so it begins.
Nice work, Tom, with grabbing the thread and posting it in your forum.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: MikieG on November 08, 2014, 09:15:11 AM
Reading in the Yellow and here has me needing to point out one fact. SSSO is a small mom and pop shop, NOT a distributor like their opposition.
SSSO said if they loose HW, they will have to close shop.
Sad as they have been serving us since the 80's. How old is AoA?
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: tomykay12 on November 08, 2014, 11:18:48 AM
Sooooo... anyone here planning on attending the Extreme BR put on by aoa?
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: Booger on November 08, 2014, 12:58:55 PM
Sooooo... anyone here planning on attending the Extreme BR put on by aoa?

I do not plan on it. 1) I live too far away. 2) I prefer not to do business whose motto is: Greed is our creed.

I am not a member of the yellow because I do not like the set up over there, I do not like their politics, and reason number 2 above.

I will shut up now.  :-X
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: jonnnyboy on November 08, 2014, 01:17:01 PM
Gentlemen, let me remind you of:

Rule 13- Personal attacks on individual airgunners, dealers, tuners or other airgun forums are strictly forbidden. If you have issues with them, then they should be addressed one on one.  Do not create a “war zone” on your forum. Take your issues up directly with them and do not launder them here on the GTA forums.


This thread is very informative about airgun manufacturer's licensing practices and inter-business models of exclusivity BUT it is skating very close to violating our forum's rules.  If it does so, it will be consigned to the Non-productive Gate where no one will be able to continue this discussion.  Obviously, this is something none of us want.  So, please choose your words carefully when discussing the practices of AOA and the Yellow forum.  Personally, I'm very interested in seeing how this is resolved so let's keep it civil and within the rules.

thanks
joe
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: TOM aka critter99 on November 08, 2014, 03:38:55 PM
Try and restrain yourselfs so this does not just sorta fade away and that western importer gains again via actions that most find unethical or at the very least just plain mean.

ya wanna vent go to that temp alternate place and post ya story

If you have not written in its not too late.

Let this run its course the ball is rolling quite well :o

Right now the ball is in HWs hands
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: Duckfish on November 09, 2014, 12:59:16 AM
Good grief
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: chiro972b on November 09, 2014, 06:41:38 AM
The frustrating thing is this American distributer is disliked by many not for its pricing, but for its poor customer service. If they focused on improving that, they wouldn't need these other actions. I and many like me don't mind paying a bit more when we know we're going  to  get  excellent customer  service. This retailer/distributer (is the distributor also supposed to sell retail?  Hmmm) has a well deserved reputation for terrible  customer  service. That is why I swore off them years ago.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: AndyH44 on November 09, 2014, 10:45:45 AM
Gentlemen, let me remind you of:

Rule 13- Personal attacks on individual airgunners, dealers, tuners or other airgun forums are strictly forbidden. If you have issues with them, then they should be addressed one on one.  Do not create a “war zone” on your forum. Take your issues up directly with them and do not launder them here on the GTA forums.


This thread is very informative about airgun manufacturer's licensing practices and inter-business models of exclusivity BUT it is skating very close to violating our forum's rules.  If it does so, it will be consigned to the Non-productive Gate where no one will be able to continue this discussion.  Obviously, this is something none of us want.  So, please choose your words carefully when discussing the practices of AOA and the Yellow forum.  Personally, I'm very interested in seeing how this is resolved so let's keep it civil and within the rules.

thanks
joe

What  about this post??
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=77825.0;topicseen (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=77825.0;topicseen)
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: ancient1one on November 09, 2014, 12:27:26 PM
Gentlemen, let me remind you of:

Rule 13- Personal attacks on individual airgunners, dealers, tuners or other airgun forums are strictly forbidden. If you have issues with them, then they should be addressed one on one.  Do not create a “war zone” on your forum. Take your issues up directly with them and do not launder them here on the GTA forums.


This thread is very informative about airgun manufacturer's licensing practices and inter-business models of exclusivity BUT it is skating very close to violating our forum's rules.  If it does so, it will be consigned to the Non-productive Gate where no one will be able to continue this discussion.  Obviously, this is something none of us want.  So, please choose your words carefully when discussing the practices of AOA and the Yellow forum.  Personally, I'm very interested in seeing how this is resolved so let's keep it civil and within the rules.

thanks
joe

What  about this post??
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=77825.0;topicseen (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=77825.0;topicseen)

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=77825.0;topicseen (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=77825.0;topicseen)
Thread/ topic is closed for comments. I wish it wasn't..
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: woogie_man on November 09, 2014, 10:23:38 PM
Why do you come in a thread and try and poke a bear?  Are you wanting to get a spitting match started so this thread gets shut down?  That thread was locked and it is done, leave it like it is...in the past.

If you read any of the reviews from said company the customer service side of things should tell you everything you need to know.  If you run a business like garbage it should fail, and if you run it great it should succeed.  You won't get anything from threatening your competitors, but just the dislike from the community you are trying to sell to.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: TOM aka critter99 on November 09, 2014, 10:28:13 PM
ya wanna vent go to that temp alternate place and post ya story

Thats what its for  ::)

This thread needs to live ...its the right thing
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: Booger on November 09, 2014, 10:35:48 PM
I will shut up now.  :-X
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: TOM aka critter99 on November 09, 2014, 10:40:36 PM
not telling ya to be quiet just we need to tip toe on the line and see what shakes out

edit:

some more information is starting to shake out .....some of the actors involved might be surprising to say the least ;D   It all makes me all the more want to see the HW reply.

Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: Booger on November 09, 2014, 10:47:12 PM
not telling ya to be quiet just we need to tip toe on the line and see what shakes out

I will shut up now.  :-X was my last 2 posts. LOL I am enjoying the information in this thread.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: MikieG on November 11, 2014, 10:14:21 AM
We still love ya Booger.
Any new developments?
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: Booger on November 11, 2014, 10:55:08 AM
We still love ya Booger.
Any new developments?

I will shut up now.  :-X

LOL
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: Sfttailrdr46 on November 11, 2014, 12:11:18 PM
We still love ya Booger.
Any new developments?
::) ;) :o Jesse is keeping it zipped for the first time since he joined
AMAZING
;D ;D
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: Booger on November 11, 2014, 12:55:23 PM
We still love ya Booger.
Any new developments?
::) ;) :o Jesse is keeping it zipped for the first time since he joined
AMAZING
;D ;D

I like that "AMAZING" thing.

:-X
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: MikieG on November 11, 2014, 10:17:06 PM
I for one happen to enjoy his posts.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: Sfttailrdr46 on November 11, 2014, 11:54:35 PM
We still love ya Booger.
Any new developments?
::) ;) :o Jesse is keeping it zipped for the first time since he joined
  ;D AMAZING  ;D

I like that "AMAZING" thing.[/move]

:-X
even your silence is amusing  ;)
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: 56S on November 12, 2014, 10:23:26 AM
I sure can feel the hate in this thread.  We airgunners have a limited number of places to purchase our airguns and associated supplies.  Shooting Skud Missiles at any one of the vendors in the business is not good for the hobby as a whole.  It reduces competition and gives us a bad name. 
I learned early on here at GTA that politics plays a part in how will you fit into the click.  I shall leave it at that.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: Sfttailrdr46 on November 12, 2014, 11:14:31 AM
I sure can feel the hate in this thread.  We airgunners have a limited number of places to purchase our airguns and associated supplies.  Shooting Skud Missiles at any one of the vendors in the business is not good for the hobby as a whole.  It reduces competition and gives us a bad name. 
I learned early on here at GTA that politics plays a part in how will you fit into the click.  I shall leave it at that.
I do not beleive it is hate it is disappointment in one of the few vendors that serves several roles (1) wholesaler (2) brick and mortar retailer & (3) an internet vendor. They are not a mom and pop operation and to expect to recieve fair and courtious treatment and not receive it after spending a not insignificant amount of hard earned money will generate a less than positive responce from the buyer. When you are in a successful business the customer and their perception of you is paramount. A negitive experiance will garner a negitive responce from the buyer. I work as a service manager at a small HVAC company and one unhappy customer will tell anybody that will listen why they are not happy so many will hear why you should not choose to buy goods or services from them. The happy customer will tell many less people about that great experiance unless asked who did the great job. If you look in the Buyers and Sellers gate you will see many threads about vendors and privite sellers that go above and beyond to insure a positive sale or return.

If a vendor gets negitive press and does a better job going forward all will benifit JMO
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: TOM aka critter99 on November 12, 2014, 12:35:50 PM
I sure can feel the hate in this thread.  We airgunners have a limited number of places to purchase our airguns and associated supplies.  Shooting Skud Missiles at any one of the vendors in the business is not good for the hobby as a whole.  It reduces competition and gives us a bad name. 
I learned early on here at GTA that politics plays a part in how will you fit into the click.  I shall leave it at that.

  Do you understand this thread is about one vendor stopping you from having another choice to buy from via a back door method?   Its not about them keeping you as customer via good service or pricing.  Its about eliminating competitors and controlling the market via unfair means

Feel free to PM me and I will fill you in on specifics and if you hear the story you will be jumping right in
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: ancient1one on November 12, 2014, 01:12:47 PM
I sure can feel the hate in this thread.  We airgunners have a limited number of places to purchase our airguns and associated supplies.  Shooting Skud Missiles at any one of the vendors in the business is not good for the hobby as a whole.  It reduces competition and gives us a bad name. 
I learned early on here at GTA that politics plays a part in how will you fit into the click.  I shall leave it at that.

I was not going to comment in this thread for the same reason. The more air gun vendors competing the better for all. That being said this past June I bought a Brocock from ssso, before buying I spoke with with Ronda and Mike 3 or 4 times about the tariff, shipping, converting the dollar to Canadian. They were pleasant, friendly and could not have be more helpful.

This past Friday I called to ask if they had any 177 hi powered Concepts, magazines for the .22's and orings in stock.. They could not have been more helpful or easier to deal with. The end of the conversation Mike says "all the info you asked about will be emailed shortly talk with you soon". I couldnt help but ask him what happened between ssso and Weihrauch.

He was cautious "how do you know about that?" I told him from the GTA forum guys are not happy your not allowed to sell Weihrauch across the border any more. He replied "It is a shame but the boss in Germany wants it this way". I asked what brought that on? Mike replied " Not 100% sure but for a little over a year now AoA has been sending emails to ssso asking to stop all US Weihrauch sales". "Right before Weihrauch called then sent a letter to ssso informing us we are no longer allowed sell to US customers AoA sent us a nasty email threatening to do something if we did not stop on our own".

AoA has the means to take most if not all the US Weihrauch sales from ssso with pricing and service. Back door politics is bad for everyone especially the end user(you and I). If AoA is willing to take out a small company in this method what will they do to their real competition like PA, AGD and Midway? Talk about reducing vendors? Friendly competition is good for all but back door politics to remove competition is just slimy.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: hutnicks on November 12, 2014, 01:28:16 PM
Yet still after all the hubbub no one seems to know what the actual distribution agreements with Weihrauch state. Until that becomes clear I really cannot side with either AoA or SSS on this one. Just far too little factual information on the issue.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: Nathan on November 12, 2014, 02:12:13 PM
Yet still after all the hubbub no one seems to know what the actual distribution agreements with Weihrauch state. Until that becomes clear I really cannot side with either AoA or SSS on this one. Just far too little factual information on the issue.

X2

Nathan

Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: TOM aka critter99 on November 12, 2014, 02:36:25 PM
SSSO has sold cross border for 16 plus years agreement NEVER stated "Canada Only" that is until they got back doored by a US based Vendor

here is a thread that got deleted on another forum spelling errors and all

Weihrauch deal with Specialty shooting sports info found out!November 7 2014 at 5:21 PM   
Mike Ellingsworth / 4888blues (Login 4888blues)
YF12
I just received a returned call from Mike, from specialty shooting sports.

So here it is!


I asked and he said they were always aloud to sell to the U S market, no contracts stating other wise period!

It was only about a year or so now that they been having troubles receiving""nasty emails and "nasty complaints" "Nasty threats".

Mike did not say the vendors name, but my conversation hit the nail on the head with out him having to say their name.

I told Mike that Hans weihrauch emailed me back and said he would be looking into the matter, and Mike told me he has also been in contact with Hanns Weihrauch and said he is working on a solution also.

Mike said

The Germans are not arrogant they have a different way of speaking then the U S people do, they are good people and mean well,and we left it at that.

ON a different Note.


As far as I am concern I am not buying nothing from AOA I dont care whats on sale, I am done, I dont care if its a 1/2 off special sale keep your stuff I dont want it!

We all can play the game now cant we.

By the way
specialty shooting sports are some fine people and absolutely excellent to deal with.

Mike



This message has been edited by 4888blues on Nov 7, 2014 5:28 PM

I have gathered background on this and placed it at:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/754392/ (http://www.network54.com/Forum/754392/)

I suggest you also write HW and express your dislike of being cut off from a great dealer this way.  I for one will buy no HW again EVER unless this is reversed.....and ya know that new Walther underlever will be a great substitute for a HW97 check it out

https://www.pyramydair.com/product/walther-lgu-air-rifle?m=3548 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/walther-lgu-air-rifle?m=3548)

Vid review LGU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4LdpoyPJbs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4LdpoyPJbs)
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: hutnicks on November 12, 2014, 03:13:56 PM
I have an email into Weihrauch, and am awaiting a response. It was not threatening in any manner as I prefer not to make radical decisions based soley on forum information, or lack there of.

I have also corresponded with Andreas at FX and he has shed far more light on the distribution scenario than anyone else so far. I found it to be quite informative.

As for calling for a boycott of any given manufacturer or distributor. I would caution against radical actions made on partial information. You just never know who's hands you may be playing into.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: TOM aka critter99 on November 12, 2014, 03:20:01 PM
I have an email into Weihrauch, and am awaiting a response. It was not threatening in any manner as I prefer not to make radical decisions based soley on forum information, or lack there of.

I have also corresponded with Andreas at FX and he has shed far more light on the distribution scenario than anyone else so far. I found it to be quite informative.

As for calling for a boycott of any given manufacturer or distributor. I would caution against radical actions made on partial information. You just never know who's hands you may be playing into.

I also know about the FX reply sounds like a circular firing squad started....just have not figured how that fits with the SSSO scenario.

By the way that note from FX is NOT CONFIDENTIAL

" Hi again!
I spoke to Fredrik and he said that it’s not confidential material.
Regards
Andreas Gustafsson"

Its an entirely new topic   :o

 The subject dealer has other issues in dealing with customers that is what drove me to seek a fair dealer like SSSO to begin with.  I will not buy from them and now I will not buy HW anywhere till this is reversed 

I am sure of only one thing the only honorable actor is SSSO so far
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: hutnicks on November 12, 2014, 03:32:10 PM
I still think it's far too early on to start picking heroes and villains in this one. When that sort of thing happens the reaction chain gets out of hand and you find that responses directly from the major players dry up as they are put in a no win situation no matter what their response(s) may be.

You have to start thinking as to why there are so few manufacturers and distributors who maintain any sort of constant presence on the forums.

I am most likely a little more tolerant in that having had to deal with the reverse of the SSS scenario for years I do not see it as a huge issue. I have a shared box in the States and when a vendor tells me they cannot ship to Canada I have it sent there. Inconvenient yes, but a necessity at times.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: TOM aka critter99 on November 12, 2014, 03:35:42 PM
I am waiting on the HW replies.....

SSSO represents the brand much better
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: ptpalpha on November 12, 2014, 07:51:51 PM
I can't see that there is any "grey area" in this topic.  What AoA did is threaten SSSO for over a year to stop selling HW products to US buyers.  SSSO was under no such obligation by contract with HW, and rightfully ignored AoA's threats.  AoA then went directly to HW with their complaints (and here one has to imagine what sort of conversation that was) and consequently HW directed SSSO to stop selling to US customers, a source of revenue the small business had been enjoying for over 16 years.
Again, I don't think there's any mystery here.  Unless you're waiting for HW to send you copies of their contracts with both AoA and SSSO, all the information is already out there.
The only thing I'm waiting for is to see if HW reverses the decision.  That will determine whether or not I will continue to buy Weihrauch products. 
As for personal opinions, the only thing I'll add is that (1) I'm disappointed that HW made such a decision in the first place, and (2) I'm disappointed that they seem to be dragging their feet in addressing it.  You can tell me about how "complicated contractual issues take time" all you like, but in the meantime they have a loyal customer base that can't buy rifles unless they use AoA, and can't get parts at all because AoA chooses not to stock parts. 
-Paul
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: 56S on November 12, 2014, 07:54:31 PM
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-08-29/tesla-fight-erupts-in-georgia-as-dealers-seek-sales-ban.html (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-08-29/tesla-fight-erupts-in-georgia-as-dealers-seek-sales-ban.html)

I've been following this battle between Tesla and the good old boy car dealers association.  This dicussion reminds me of that.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: ptpalpha on November 12, 2014, 08:03:09 PM
I heard that story on the news the other day and I thought exactly the same thing.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: hutnicks on November 12, 2014, 10:07:06 PM
I don't see how you can compare violating State Law  with private company distribution agreements at all.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: Booger on November 12, 2014, 10:21:25 PM
This is an interesting thread. Some people just do not get it. We have been warned, and I really want to see how this plays out. As Sgt. Joe Friday said "Just the facts". I would like add: This is one thing that has the potential to affect all of us.

Now I will return to my corner.

:-X
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: grumpy on November 13, 2014, 08:59:52 AM
The major problem is they do not serve the hobby, they serve themselves.

I sure can feel the hate in this thread.  We airgunners have a limited number of places to purchase our airguns and associated supplies.  Shooting Skud Missiles at any one of the vendors in the business is not good for the hobby as a whole.  It reduces competition and gives us a bad name. 
I learned early on here at GTA that politics plays a part in how will you fit into the click.  I shall leave it at that.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: 56S on November 13, 2014, 01:40:08 PM
Yep.  If I was in business for myself.....well, that just about explains it right there.  Do any if us know what the dealer agreement is with HW?  I would imagine it would take a lawyer to sort through it.  Most do.  I can't see HW caving because a dealer wants a share of the pie not due to him.  If your neighbor decided he wanted a tree that was 5 feet into your property and we all complained that you went to the local government about it, would that be right?  How about if there was a deed filed in the courthouse that said your neighbor owned all timber rights on your property. The point is that these issues get complicated fast.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: TOM aka critter99 on November 13, 2014, 02:46:05 PM
Yep.  If I was in business for myself.....well, that just about explains it right there.  Do any if us know what the dealer agreement is with HW?  I would imagine it would take a lawyer to sort through it.  Most do.  I can't see HW caving because a dealer wants a share of the pie not due to him.  If your neighbor decided he wanted a tree that was 5 feet into your property and we all complained that you went to the local government about it, would that be right?  How about if there was a deed filed in the courthouse that said your neighbor owned all timber rights on your property. The point is that these issues get complicated fast.

Ya just have not read the thread...

1. for 16 years or so they were not limited on territory per contract
2. One dealer threatened the other numerous times
3. Threatening dealer used HW to get other one cut off from LONGTIME customers

ya just don't see it and well we will have to agree to disagree 
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: MikieG on November 13, 2014, 07:51:43 PM
What part of t
his do you not understand? SSSO has had their "pie" longer than AOA has existed. There is nothing to debate. This change is recent. I could see this argument if SSSO just got into the HW business.
But 16 years? 16! So if there were a breech of contract, why just now get around to it? Did AOA start its business with this agreement? The answer to all these questions is no.
This is what it is. Back door politics. Dirty tactics. And thats that.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: 56S on November 13, 2014, 08:30:39 PM
Maybe I'm just too careful what I say or write.  http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libel (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libel)
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: Booger on November 13, 2014, 08:52:50 PM
Maybe I'm just too careful what I say or write.  http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libel (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libel)

Oh it is so difficult.

:-X


LOL Pretty soon I am going to:

(http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/images/smilies/kboom.gif) 

Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: hutnicks on November 13, 2014, 10:05:19 PM
 :o

Where'd you get that kaboom emoticon? I click on more here and get nothing.

 :o
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: Booger on November 13, 2014, 10:08:14 PM
:o

Where'd you get that kaboom emoticon? I click on more here and get nothing.

 :o

(http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/images/smilies/kboom.gif)

just copy and paste it to word and you will have it when needed
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: hutnicks on November 13, 2014, 10:11:35 PM
:o

Where'd you get that kaboom emoticon? I click on more here and get nothing.

 :o

(http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/images/smilies/kboom.gif)

just copy and paste it to word and you will have it when needed

Got it. Had to do an edit and save thing though. Thanks.
See these threads can be useful 8)
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: airgunrebel on November 16, 2014, 09:10:20 AM
The new air gun law in Canada requiring airguns to be treated like firearms will be interesting on sales in Canada.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: MikieG on November 16, 2014, 10:43:28 AM
Seems like gun laws in the US are swaying towards common sense  while Canadians are heading down the idiocy path?
Even the state of Michigan recently came to their senses on the airgun topic.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: ptpalpha on November 18, 2014, 09:31:18 PM
"Even the state of Michigan"????
Good heavens...when did that happen?
-Paul
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: hutnicks on November 18, 2014, 09:58:31 PM
Seems like gun laws in the US are swaying towards common sense  while Canadians are heading down the idiocy path?
Even the state of Michigan recently came to their senses on the airgun topic.

Heading? We've been in bonehead mode since the introduction of the original FAC. This latest go round is not so much impacting airguns as a legal kludge aimed at enabling the law to prosecute people who use airsoft guns in the commission of crimes.  The fallout will remain to be seen.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: gg51 on November 18, 2014, 10:04:08 PM
Seems like gun laws in the US are swaying towards common sense  while Canadians are heading down the idiocy path?
Even the state of Michigan recently came to their senses on the airgun topic.

Heading? We've been in bonehead mode since the introduction of the original FAC. This latest go round is not so much impacting airguns as a legal kludge aimed at enabling the law to prosecute people who use airsoft guns in the commission of crimes.  The fallout will remain to be seen.

I'm sure I must be mis-reading this, but why would prosecuting people who commit a crime with an airsoft gun be more or less onerous than just prosecuting people who commit a crime without a toy gun?
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: hutnicks on November 18, 2014, 10:16:19 PM
Huge difference in penalty for using a firearm in the commission of a crime. By enabling an airsoft gun to be classified as a firearm if it is used in a crime the penalty therefore increases instantly and the argument about it being a toy is removed as a defense.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: gg51 on November 18, 2014, 10:25:56 PM
Huge difference in penalty for using a firearm in the commission of a crime. By enabling an airsoft gun to be classified as a firearm if it is used in a crime the penalty therefore increases instantly and the argument about it being a toy is removed as a defense.

Ok, so a criminal with an airsoft should get a lighter sentence?  Or should there be classifications of felonies by FPE?  To me, threatening someone with a weapon, who by the by, probably doesn't know betwixt an airsoft and a howitzer, which is why you as a criminal are robbing them, unless you are congenitally stupid, is the point.

Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: Booger on November 18, 2014, 10:32:17 PM
Huge difference in penalty for using a firearm in the commission of a crime. By enabling an airsoft gun to be classified as a firearm if it is used in a crime the penalty therefore increases instantly and the argument about it being a toy is removed as a defense.

Ok, so a criminal with an airsoft should get a lighter sentence?  Or should there be classifications of felonies by FPE?  To me, threatening someone with a weapon, who by the by, probably doesn't know betwixt an airsoft and a howitzer, which is why you as a criminal are robbing them, unless you are congenitally stupid, is the point.

This is off topic from the thread, but we all know our justice system is all about the dollar bill. You only get as much justice as you can afford. That being said, if you rob someone the crime might be a Class C felony, if you do it with a air soft gun it makes it a Class B felony. Class B makes more money for the state than Class C.

So back to my original statement that applies also to the OP, it is all about the dollar bill. It is what it is.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: hutnicks on November 18, 2014, 11:17:30 PM
Huge difference in penalty for using a firearm in the commission of a crime. By enabling an airsoft gun to be classified as a firearm if it is used in a crime the penalty therefore increases instantly and the argument about it being a toy is removed as a defense.

Ok, so a criminal with an airsoft should get a lighter sentence?  Or should there be classifications of felonies by FPE?  To me, threatening someone with a weapon, who by the by, probably doesn't know betwixt an airsoft and a howitzer, which is why you as a criminal are robbing them, unless you are congenitally stupid, is the point.

No No, You misunderstand. The point is that the criminal with the airsoft is now being treated as having a firearm. He gets the full monty.

Booger is right though. We are straying, and into pollyticks no less :o
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: grauhanen on November 18, 2014, 11:21:41 PM
The new air gun law in Canada requiring airguns to be treated like firearms will be interesting on sales in Canada.
This is not any new law.  Nothing's changed with regard to airgun law in Canada.  A sub-500 fps airgun still does not require a Possession and Acquisition Licence (PAL) to buy.  Above 500 fps still requires a PAL.  If you use either airgun in the commission of a crime, you would be treated as though you had used a powder burning firearm.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: tomykay12 on November 19, 2014, 01:01:47 PM
Speaking of dollars, and back on topic, the recent success of the EBR put on by THE WESTERN VENDOR shows the competitive airgun community really does not give a hoot about THE WESTERN VENDOR's business practices. They are buyers of high end airguns and an important customer base of THE WESTERN VENDOR, and other vendors. An opportunity to make an impact was lost.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: ptpalpha on November 19, 2014, 01:19:56 PM
And still no response from Weihrauch.  Looks like they plan on hunkering down and doing nothing, hoping the whole issue just fades away.
It's looking like that's exactly what's going to happen, too.
That's a shame.  I was planning on being a life-long customer of HW...looks like I'll be getting the new Walther and forgetting about my R9 project.
Well, all we can do is what we can do.  What I'm going to do is choose not to give my money to one manufacturer and one distributer/dealer.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: ancient1one on November 19, 2014, 03:06:04 PM
What I'm going to do is choose not to give my money to one manufacturer and one distributer/dealer.

Your not alone I will not be giving a dime to either going forward. Both manufacturer and distributor/dealer took a hit for sure. The dealer took a bigger hit and lost some of us for ever..

I wonder if it was worth it and if they could do it over again would they? Bet the manufacturer would like a do over..
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: dv8eod on November 19, 2014, 03:36:57 PM
What I'm going to do is choose not to give my money to one manufacturer and one distributer/dealer.

Your not alone I will not be giving a dime to either going forward. Both manufacturer and distributor/dealer took a hit for sure. The dealer took a bigger hit and lost some of us for ever..

I wonder if it was worth it and if they could do it over again would they? Bet the manufacturer would like a do over..

In all honesty and fairness, this is just a small speed bump.  The truth is, the number of new customers will always outnumber the repeat customers.  Most of them probably haven't even heard of this thread or are aware of the ongoing dispute.  And even if they did, would they care.  In a couple of months, it will all blow over and back to business as usual.
 
Discussing it here, while might be therapeutic, is in reality equivocal to beating a dead horse.  Keep in mind I don't hold a position either way on this as I have not/do not do business with either of the companies or the manufacturer.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: Booger on November 19, 2014, 03:54:15 PM
What I'm going to do is choose not to give my money to one manufacturer and one distributer/dealer.

Your not alone I will not be giving a dime to either going forward. Both manufacturer and distributor/dealer took a hit for sure. The dealer took a bigger hit and lost some of us for ever..

I wonder if it was worth it and if they could do it over again would they? Bet the manufacturer would like a do over..

In all honesty and fairness, this is just a small speed bump.  The truth is, the number of new customers will always outnumber the repeat customers.  Most of them probably haven't even heard of this thread or are aware of the ongoing dispute.  And even if they did, would they care.  In a couple of months, it will all blow over and back to business as usual.
 
Discussing it here, while might be therapeutic, is in reality equivocal to beating a dead horse.  Keep in mind I don't hold a position either way on this as I have not/do not do business with either of the companies or the manufacturer.

+1 we are such a small group it makes no difference at all. They will still get their bottom line (both companies).
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: hutnicks on November 19, 2014, 05:15:21 PM
What I'm going to do is choose not to give my money to one manufacturer and one distributer/dealer.

Your not alone I will not be giving a dime to either going forward. Both manufacturer and distributor/dealer took a hit for sure. The dealer took a bigger hit and lost some of us for ever..

I wonder if it was worth it and if they could do it over again would they? Bet the manufacturer would like a do over..

In all honesty and fairness, this is just a small speed bump.  The truth is, the number of new customers will always outnumber the repeat customers.  Most of them probably haven't even heard of this thread or are aware of the ongoing dispute.  And even if they did, would they care.  In a couple of months, it will all blow over and back to business as usual.
 
Discussing it here, while might be therapeutic, is in reality equivocal to beating a dead horse.  Keep in mind I don't hold a position either way on this as I have not/do not do business with either of the companies or the manufacturer.

+1 we are such a small group it makes no difference at all. They will still get their bottom line (both companies).

+2

 The reality is any response other than what you would normally do is allowing others to take control of your actions. The only decision you actually get to make is who is defining what you do. Not enough info here or anywhere else to make a rational decision on that.

This ones for you booger:)

Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: TOM aka critter99 on November 19, 2014, 05:29:59 PM
I would suggest 30 days and resend your letters mine went in 7 Nov they don't move real quick in Europe.

In the past I have always received a  written hard copy reply from HW dont assume they blew us off just yet  :o... I know Hans does value repeat customers

Its a business fact its cheaper to retain one existing customer than to spend marketing costs to attract one new customer
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: grauhanen on November 19, 2014, 06:14:54 PM
What I'm going to do is choose not to give my money to one manufacturer and one distributer/dealer.

Your not alone I will not be giving a dime to either going forward. Both manufacturer and distributor/dealer took a hit for sure. The dealer took a bigger hit and lost some of us for ever..

I wonder if it was worth it and if they could do it over again would they? Bet the manufacturer would like a do over..

In all honesty and fairness, this is just a small speed bump.  The truth is, the number of new customers will always outnumber the repeat customers.  Most of them probably haven't even heard of this thread or are aware of the ongoing dispute.  And even if they did, would they care.  In a couple of months, it will all blow over and back to business as usual.
 
Discussing it here, while might be therapeutic, is in reality equivocal to beating a dead horse.  Keep in mind I don't hold a position either way on this as I have not/do not do business with either of the companies or the manufacturer.

+1 we are such a small group it makes no difference at all. They will still get their bottom line (both companies).

+2

 The reality is any response other than what you would normally do is allowing others to take control of your actions. The only decision you actually get to make is who is defining what you do. Not enough info here or anywhere else to make a rational decision on that.

This ones for you booger:)



I am a bit surprised by the defeatism exhibited by some of the recent posts on this thread.  I didn't think that American airgunners would concede defeat so easily.  Weihrauch is a large airgun company and as such will not react quickly to this kind of situation.  It's in the interests of the company to wait to see where the dust begins to settle before moving on the problem.  If this issue is important, and it should be, concerned airgunners should not throw in the towel and say there's nothing more that can be done.  A sustained effort is required.  Few battles are won quickly and easily.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: MikieG on November 19, 2014, 10:34:20 PM
The defeatist position likely comes from a person that is not truly committed to this effort. It is a way to justify doing business with the devil.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: ptpalpha on November 19, 2014, 11:36:59 PM
The defeatist position likely comes from a person that is not truly committed to this effort. It is a way to justify doing business with the devil.

I respectfully disagree with (and quite honestly don't see any logic in) this post.  While I certainly concede that the last few comments exhibit a level of defeatism, I don't see any connection between that and a desire to do business with either the manufacturer or distributer (whom I assume are the "devil" implied in your post).
That notwithstanding, the suggestion to begin a second wave of emails to Weihrauch is a good one, and I'll definately contribute.
I remain disappointed that to date there has been no response from HW, and the "things take longer in Europe" and "big companies don't move quickly" arguments hold no water with me.  What happened quite simply is wrong, and fixing it quickly should be a high priority if a company values it's customers and reputation. 
We're entering the most profitable retail month of the year, and giving your customers a reason to shop elsewhere is simply bad business.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: palonej on November 20, 2014, 11:18:21 AM
Han W answered my e mail about a new 98 I sent in about 2 weeks......a week after that I received an HW cap and a letter of thanks.
I got the standard response to my latest e mail, in regards to AOA, nothing for a month.
Sent another this morning.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: ptpalpha on November 20, 2014, 11:40:21 AM
I sent another one this morning too. 
Somehow I don't think I'll be receiving a free hat. ;)
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: TOM aka critter99 on November 20, 2014, 12:06:11 PM
Guys  I sent my follow up as well I was mistaken my original one was sent 31 Oct 2014
Title: Did anybody ever get a real reply from HW ???
Post by: TOM aka critter99 on March 21, 2015, 06:44:20 PM
Did anybody ever get a real reply from HW ???
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: grauhanen on March 21, 2015, 09:21:10 PM
You'd think that someone would have reported a response from Weihrauch.

Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
Title: Re: Update: Specialty Shooting Sports bullied to stop cross US/Canada border sales
Post by: William on March 21, 2015, 10:38:03 PM
Not that I really want to say anything at all, but not one person here has explained what all the excitement is about, all I get out of the whole thread here is somebody is mad a somebody for some reason! I guess due to selling items across the border at lower prices and bad customer service or something, you know if you want someone to jump in on the bandwagon, the first note should be an explanation as to why they should!

Who knows maybe I missed something,

William