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All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => Turkish AirGun Gate => Topic started by: SpiralGroove on September 26, 2014, 06:08:09 PM
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So the Wolf Airgun LDC arrived for my Hatsan AT44-10-L
First impressions:
1) Looks nice :D
2) Pretty light given size :D
3) Suppressor bore 5/16" (for a .177 cal.) ???
4) Doesn't clip pellets :D
5) Black finish scratches very easily.
6) Took 5 shots at friends house, he could hear the hammer/valve ping while firing, but said it echoed in the woods in front of us like
a .22 short. Should the gun be that loud?? :o
I stopped after 5 shots as my friend was worried about the neighbors :-[
Is this the NORM for a $66 LDC??
(Shipping back to Poland only $12.75)
Any feedback would be helpful :P
edited for taboo content
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Do you have a chrony? If you're breaking the sound barrier it's going to be loud regardless of the LDC. You need to reduce the speed below 1035-1050 so you're not making sonic booms.
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5/16" or likely @ 8mm is ample for a .22 cal and much to large for .177 cal to be very effective which generally does well threw a 1/4" hole.
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The 5/16" hole did seem a little big for a .177 to me. Since Wolf Airguns has been getting a lot of flack for their LCD's clipping pellets, I wouldn't be surprised if they're making em a little bigger now ??? That's what I'd do ;D
Dang it, forgot the crony today ::)
On the other hand, since I just finished shooting 30 shots in my 13 yard crawl space, with & w/o the LCD, you can't hear much noise at all when it's on!! This is going to sound naive, but are sonic booms eliminated in a small space (indoors) and hence the LCD works fine or what? ???
Kirk
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The amplitude of the sound signature leaving muzzle only changes in perception of its noise as the sound bounces back at you from the environment.
Say the DBa rating is 80 at 10 feet away ... Get closer or go into a small room or out in the open its perceived change would be due to acoustics.
Having been around many a LDC :o ... a correctly manufactured one is VERY effective ;)
** Do make note:
if projectile is going supersonic the SONIC CRACK Can Not be attenuated :P
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Hey Motorhead,
Thanks.....> for confirming I was sonic booming today with my AT44-10-L. I had it pumped up to 200 bar, using JSB 10.34's, but because I had turned out the hammer (a lot) I though I would be in the high 900's. Didn't even consider The Boom Barrier :P
Let me know if I missed your point ???
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A pellet breaking the sound barrier has a VERY distinct SNAP / CRACK sound being nothing like pop from the muzzle ;)
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Ldc guys please do not use the s word. Thanks David
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Because the snap/crackle or pop was seeming in the distance and did not come from where we were standing, I can only conclude that I was unknowingly doing the wild thing with Mother Nature ;D
PS: Sorry Thor !!! :-[
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Because the snap/crackle or pop was seeming in the distance and did not come from where we were standing, I can only conclude that I was unknowingly doing the wild thing with Mother Nature ;D
HAHAHA No problem guys I am just as bad. David
PS: Sorry Thor !!! :-[
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My LDC worked well to reduce the report but clipped pretty bad, I am going to try to fix both of them tomorrow while the painters are repainting the office at work, since I am the only one who has a master key I get the job of baby sitting the painters....
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Out f the testing I have done with LDC. You need to test the POI with and without the LDC nothing should change, also the FPS with and without...The report to me 65-70db is good for my backyard in the city. some like it lower then that, but that is the happy medium I feel...with no clipping, no POI change and no loss of fps.
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Thanks Baxter, ;)
Yeah, the crack we experienced today can only be reduced by a good tune. I'm hoping to get 50/60 shots around 950 fps and get under the barrier in the process.
Kirk
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Thanks Baxter, ;)
Yeah, the crack we experienced today can only be reduced by a good tune. I'm hoping to get 50/60 shots around 950 fps and get under the barrier in the process.
Kirk
My wolf does the same thing. it is quiet by the rifle but a 22 like crack downfield being the sound barrier is broken. just use heavier pellets and you will knock 100 or so fps off. my wolf spayed shots all over in my BT 65 I drilled it out 2 sizes bigger and it helped a lot. I emailed wolf and told them what I did and they said they will make a new one with bigger opening and send it to me
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See that's the thing a larger opening is not the problem....it's inside that is the problem..
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Baxter: Why you think drilling the LCD larger won't solve the clipping problem? ??? I assume he means drilling the entire length larger, not just the opening.
My (.177) Wolf LCD could fit a .25 if centered perfectly :o and seems to work fine!
I can see this solution may not be best for it's sound quieting abilities, but sholuld help the clipping problem --> Right :P
Mista Meener: I plan to regulate my AT44-L to get 50/60 shots at 925/950 fps (JSB 10.34 or CP 10.50). This way I get more shots at the most accurate velocity, and remain under the "Limbo Stick". ;)
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It depends on why it is clipping...drilling the hole larger is allowing more sound and air out, which can cause dirty air behind the pellet. If it's hitting one of the baffles inside then there will be no consistent accuracy. To me the sound is not worth the inaccuracy. Hope it works out.
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good to hear the pellets aren't clipping :) . and good to know even with the 5/16 hole that it's still effective at collecting the lead dust from a lil .177 pellet . do you think the "duraluminium" that it's made from is strong enough to use on a strong break barrel like a hatsan 95 or 135 ?
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Hey Baxter,
Not trying to give you a hard time, but what other reason would there be for clipping the pellet? It's hitting a baffle which needs to be drilled larger - Right?
Hey D14Jeff,
IMHO The Wolf LDC should not be used on a break barrel, especially the 135. Threads would need to be cut perfectly on the barrel and the delicate LDC system couldn't handle much stress & remain functional. We're having serious doubts their "good" for the guns they were designed for still :o
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Kirk, we talked about this on our big springers. If the crack is down range how's something on the end of the barrel going to help?
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Lefteyeshot,
We talked about the 135 in .177 only, which can create velocities > 1050 fps. In this situation, if your shooting above the sound barrier -> you're right "what's the point of a LDC!" In .22 and .25 the 135 shoots below 1050 fps so theoretically the Wolf LDC could be installed. However, its slight build wouldn't handle the stress very long :(.
I don't know that much about LDC's, but somebody probably makes one that can the installed and work on a springer?
I'm not sure this helped? Hey D14Jeff, PM Baxter and see what he thinks - I'm guessing :o!
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What I mean is if the pellet or bullet is going down range faster than the speed on sound it's going to crack loud regardless what's on the muzzle.
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Sometimes the way the baffles or whatever they use or how they put a LDC together causes air turbulence with the pellet which will cause inaccuracy to the point that you would think it is clipping and it could cause clipping but if you drill out the hole you have defeated the purpose of the LDC. I have made some that were quiet but lost fps but were accurate . There is a happy medium on these things, Mr Walton understands them . Thanks David
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David is correct, drilling the hole larger does not fix the problem. The pellet is already traveling inaccurate. A larger hole just helps it to continue on that inaccurate path. The tighter the pellet hole is the better the LDC will work.
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Thanks Baxter and David ;), OK, so clipping just means rendered inaccurate for whatever reason ;D
Leftyeyeshot, I agree :D
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Yes....songwriting is causing to path of the pellet not to travel straight, or the LDC itself is not correctly align.
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Interesting thread can someone explain why an LDC changes the POI. Is it just like a longer barrel or does it have to do with fps.
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I don't feel like I am hijacking your thread since I am talking about your new rifle.
I am pretty sure it was you that decided to refunish your AT44W stock before putting it in action? Yes? No? If yes, all is well. If no, I messed up, sorry.
I remember you posted some photos in progress. I ran across a AT44W refinish that had the same shine and type of layers as yours. It was on the Yellow. A fellow posted it as a dare to anyone who refinished their Mrod. "As a, can you beat this" type of thing".
Apparently the type of wood suggested that Crosman uses is a Sycamore. That leading to a rather uncompliementary use for said Crosman wood, which didn't correlate with a gun stock. (Tight lipped smile).
Anyhow, I thought I would try to post the pics because they did have a very simular look to the work in pogress you showed us.
The first one is before or the way they come, sort of. The next 2 are the finished products.
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz205/zebrawood_photo/z003.jpg (http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz205/zebrawood_photo/z003.jpg)
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz205/zebrawood_photo/Hatsan001.jpg (http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz205/zebrawood_photo/Hatsan001.jpg)
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz205/zebrawood_photo/Hatsan005.jpg (http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz205/zebrawood_photo/Hatsan005.jpg)
If I read correctly, the stock master charges $80 to redo to this finish.
Be Well,
Gator
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Baxter: Why you think drilling the LCD larger won't solve the clipping problem? ??? I assume he means drilling the entire length larger, not just the opening.
My (.177) Wolf LCD could fit a .25 if centered perfectly :o and seems to work fine!
I can see this solution may not be best for it's sound quieting abilities, but sholuld help the clipping problem --> Right :P
Mista Meener: I plan to regulate my AT44-L to get 50/60 shots at 925/950 fps (JSB 10.34 or CP 10.50). This way I get more shots at the most accurate velocity, and remain under the "Limbo Stick". ;)
Baxter is right but I had a ldc that sprayed all over the place and now it is not bad. I did drill it out the length of the baffles. but if you are breaking sound barrier I think they are useless.you can hear a rush of noise and a crack by the target. You a4re doing the right thing regulating your rifle at 920-950. unless you have people living on top of you the noise without ldc will be ok. my at 44 goes 870 fps without ldc and I have people 50 ft away and it is ok
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Yes....songwriting is causing to path of the pellet not to travel straight, or the LDC itself is not correctly align.
Axial alignment is everything on a LDC. Drilling out the ID may improve things some but it does not solve the misalignment. If the pellet is barely missing one quadrant of the baffle and has lots of room on the opposite side the uneven air flow will destroy the accuracy.
I run 0.315 on my 30 cal LDC and there is no effect on accuracy or POI. I started at 0.375 and then the baffle was reduced to .315, the increase in effectiveness was obvious.
Getting an add-on LDC to function properly is no easy feat, there are many places where problems arise. Barrel/bore concentricity, LDC/barrel fit, set screw canting, poor alignment in the LDC itself, etc..........
One thing for sure. If you have clipping there is an alignment issue somewhere. I'd start by fixing the alignment before drilling out the baffles.
Tom
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Tom has it 100% correct. thats why I make the baffles, both end caps out of one piece, I drill a hole the smallest size first the entire length on a precision lathe. then even after that the OD has the be the exact same as all the parts when fitting inside the LDC tube. Then still I test for POI, FPS, and report. Ez to make one, not ez to make one right.
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Thanks Baxter & Tom,
It seems obvious to me now, the Wolf Airgun LDC is a "riverboat gamble" leading only to frustration.
I will likely return mine to Poland and send my $$ to Baxter ;)
Kirk
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Baxter: Why you think drilling the LCD larger won't solve the clipping problem? ??? I assume he means drilling the entire length larger, not just the opening.
My (.177) Wolf LCD could fit a .25 if centered perfectly :o and seems to work fine!
I can see this solution may not be best for it's sound quieting abilities, but sholuld help the clipping problem --> Right :P
Mista Meener: I plan to regulate my AT44-L to get 50/60 shots at 925/950 fps (JSB 10.34 or CP 10.50). This way I get more shots at the most accurate velocity, and remain under the "Limbo Stick". ;)
Baxter is right but I had a ldc that sprayed all over the place and now it is not bad. I did drill it out the length of the baffles. but if you are breaking sound barrier I think they are useless.you can hear a rush of noise and a crack by the target. You a4re doing the right thing regulating your rifle at 920-950. unless you have people living on top of you the noise without ldc will be ok. my at 44 goes 870 fps without ldc and I have people 50 ft away and it is ok
Least I could do after getting all off TOPIC:
You guys would have to be the judge of AT44's without LDC, and neighbors. My closest is across the road and down about 1/8th mile.
They hear my guns but don't care as are shooting PBs, lol.
Sound taken off muzzle (air s.) 10" and off to side 4"
2240 bone stock: 95db
AT44W-10 .22 : 102db ☆☆☆with air stripper which does act somewhat a sound diverter there ...☆☆☆
AT44W-10 .25 long: 103db air S.
Galation IV .25 : 102db air S.
BT65 Elite .25: 108db air S.
So my "guess" would be they will hear with no LDC. The reason, I am guessing, is because in urban developments, there are so many other noises, that the air gun pops might not be are clear as they are in rural areas. Until 30 days ago, we have lived on a dirt road.
PDF file on sounds, kind of interesting comparing teains to crickets.
acoustics.ippt.gov.pl/index.php/aa/article/download/713/631
Be Well,
Gator
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Yes....songwriting is causing to path of the pellet not to travel straight, or the LDC itself is not correctly align.
Axial alignment is everything on a LDC. Drilling out the ID may improve things some but it does not solve the misalignment. If the pellet is barely missing one quadrant of the baffle and has lots of room on the opposite side the uneven air flow will destroy the accuracy.
I run 0.315 on my 30 cal LDC and there is no effect on accuracy or POI. I started at 0.375 and then the baffle was reduced to .315, the increase in effectiveness was obvious.
Getting an add-on LDC to function properly is no easy feat, there are many places where problems arise. Barrel/bore concentricity, LDC/barrel fit, set screw canting, poor alignment in the LDC itself, etc..........
One thing for sure. If you have clipping there is an alignment issue somewhere. I'd start by fixing the alignment before drilling out the baffles.
Tom
I think you have it right being by drilling out the wolf accuracy greatly improved but not what it should be. baxter does it right on a good lathe